10 Myths About WW1 Debunked

[redzed]

stuff

one of the best posts on the entire internet ever

Ironic that it's the BEEB that seems on a State mission to show the glory of War, the very same Beeb that Eric Blair worked for and was instrumental in so many aspects of his book.

[maxxon]

I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak, so I can't help but wonder why this now? Is it just the 100 year anniversary or what?

I mean, just yesterday I read a very similar piece in Miniature Wargames...

That said, this reminds me of the Finnish casualty statistics for WWII I saw a little while ago. When you take the numbers as a relation to the entire population they never seem too bad, do they? (Especially compared to the wholesale slaughter often present on our gaming tables)

But the problem is it's not evenly distributed. When you take a closer look at the numbers you see they are extremely skewed as to who's actually doing the dying. Taking 5% or whatever odds may sound reasonable but what it really boils down to is that if you were born in the wrong year, your odds of making it through the war alive and without permanent injuries was pretty much slim to none.

Basically the society is sacrificing entire generations to survive as a whole.

[Hammers]

I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak, so I can't help but wonder why this now? Is it just the 100 year anniversary or what?

I mean, just yesterday I read a very similar piece in Miniature Wargames...

That said, this reminds me of the Finnish casualty statistics for WWII I saw a little while ago. When you take the numbers as a relation to the entire population they never seem too bad, do they? (Especially compared to the wholesale slaughter often present on our gaming tables)

But the problem is it's not evenly distributed. When you take a closer look at the numbers you see they are extremely skewed as to who's actually doing the dying. Taking 5% or whatever odds may sound reasonable but what it really boils down to is that if you were born in the wrong year, your odds of making it through the war alive and without permanent injuries was pretty much slim to none.

Basically the society is sacrificing entire generations to survive as a whole.

1 in 20 Is very, very bad.

[joroas]

In the UK the 100th anniversary is big, but it has been hi-jacked by the minister for Education who wants it taught in a particular way.  Out goes Blackadder, used by History teachers regularly and in comes the idea of a justified war.

There has been a huge backlash from all sorts of folk, largely as a result of his factual inaccuracies. The Germans, for instance did not START the war and as for justified, well it was basically a competition by the leaders to show who could spit the furthest.  The comment in All Quiet on the Western Front has the gist of what ordinary soldiers wanted:

“Why do they never tell us that you are poor devils like us, that your mothers are just as anxious as ours, and that we have the same fear of death, and the same dying and the same agony—Forgive me, comrade; how could you be my enemy?”

[Cubs]

Polititians are always the people who start wars they have spent the last twenty years failing to plan for.

I think the powder keg of WW1 was a long time in filling and it just needed something to spark it off. Germany's violation of Belgium's neutrality was its big blunder and probably cost them the chance for ultimate victory. It caused such outrage it undoubtably slewed international sympathy away from them.

How many people after 1914 gave a toss about the Balkan issues that were prime causes for conflict? They weren't to be resolved for another 80yrs (and some would say they still aren't).

[maxxon]

1 in 20 Is very, very bad.

I don't recall what the exact total casualty rate was, but it was in the low single digits. Definitely it seemed like good odds if the roll had to be made...

...until you figured what the odds were if you were a man born in 1920.

[armchairgeneral]

The main misconception about the Great War seems to be that it was soldiers walking towards machine guns and being mowed down as per some sectors of the first day of the Somme. The vast majority of casualties were caused by artillery however.

As early as 1915 with the introduction of the Lewis gun, the British restructured their tactics based around the platoon with separate sections for rifles, close assault grenades, lewis gun and rifle grenades enabling it to be semi-self supporting. The French also did the same.

I was aware of most of those 1 -10 points and would recommend the book "Mud, Blood and Poppycock: Britain and the Great War" by Gordon Corrigan for more on this.

[Conquistador]

"War is what happens when people are too fucking stupid to sort their shit out in a reasonable fashion. No amount of massaged stats are ever going to change that. "

While that sounds good, Scurv,  I suspect there are more than a few cases where a nation or group with in a nation feels they have no other option (and they may not) than to use force to achieve what they see as a vital goal.  Whether that goal is truly vital is often, unfortunately, misjudged by decision makers.

And while no government of fallen mankind is pure from political/cultural blindness, unnecessary stubbornness, sheer stupidity, and/or bad judgment there are principles worth fighting for. 

Most wars happen because two or more nations think they can achieve their goals by a "short, clean, minimal casualty" military operation where the reality is that both nations are wrong about everything I have in quotes. 

Unfortunately governments can't make decisions with 20/20 hindsight or there would have been less wars. 

Garcias,

Glenn

[former user]

In the UK the 100th anniversary is big, but it has been hi-jacked by the minister for Education who wants it taught in a particular way.  Out goes Blackadder, used by History teachers regularly and in comes the idea of a justified war.

I think this might be the interesting point. History is about the interpretation of past events and I wonder what the interest of the current 100 years anniversary  discourse may be....

as a side note, I also wondered how comes that in the anglophone countries, WW1 is so much more present than in Germany, where noone talks about it. On rememberence day for instance, while everyone weary poppies, the rhineland starts the carnival season and gets beastly drunk starting  8 o'clock in the morning.... 

[commissarmoody]

as a side note, I also wondered how comes that in the anglophone countries, WW1 is so much more present than in Germany, where noone talks about it. On rememberence day for instance, while everyone weary poppies, the rhineland starts the carnival season and gets beastly drunk starting  8 o'clock in the morning.... 

I think there is an slight lean towards not talking about the wars to in theory discourage militarism and nationalism. I am just going off of my time in Germany and talking to my German friends. Also lots of the surviving great war gen was killed off or just tired of it all by the end of world war 2.
My old bosses great grandfather was sabered by a French Calvary men in the closeing of the war in 1918 and had been fighting since 1916.
After that he went home to Berlin, fought in the friekorp.
Then he worked as a court stenographer, until I believe 34-35 were he and his brother were arrested and held for 6 months. Were he was beaten every day and called communists. Then he was just let go with out an expliation, His brother was never seen again.
3 week later he was drafted. Marched all over Europe, was captured in 44 some where in Russia and walked home from Siberia in 48. And rebuilt his famly home in the US sector of Berlin.

[former user]

I think there is an slight lean towards not talking about the wars to in theory discourage militarism and nationalism.

and in practice then enabling it, because people forget about the horrible effects, exactly like the one story You just shared....

because, if we are honest, the whole issue about remembering a war that started 100 years ago are the horrible consequences it had for the following years after, and even still today......
or not?

[commissarmoody]

Agreed, former user.
I was a solder, I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. I still miss the rush of action and my comrades. Do I want to do it again? No.
 I am perfectly happy getting my jolly's off at the shooting range and playing with little lead or plastic figures.

[FramFramson]

I think there is an slight lean towards not talking about the wars to in theory discourage militarism and nationalism. I am just going off of my time in Germany and talking to my German friends. Also lots of the surviving great war gen was killed off or just tired of it all by the end of world war 2.
My old bosses great grandfather was sabered by a French Calvary men in the closeing of the war in 1918 and had been fighting since 1916.
After that he went home to Berlin, fought in the friekorp.
Then he worked as a court stenographer, until I believe 34-35 were he and his brother were arrested and held for 6 months. Were he was beaten every day and called communists. Then he was just let go with out an expliation, His brother was never seen again.
3 week later he was drafted. Marched all over Europe, was captured in 44 some where in Russia and walked home from Siberia in 48. And rebuilt his famly home in the US sector of Berlin.

My friend's dad, a Colonel who served in Germany in the 1980's, had many stories of serving in Germany at the time. Some of them his son can't share with me, but I think this one's okay for distribution.

This Colonel would tell a story to his son about "The only German who served on the Western Front".

So while serving there, the Colonel would occasionally run into veterans of WWII and if the subject ever came up, they would quickly avoid talking about it, making a point of saying "Oh well you see I served on the Eastern Front". Of course on the surface this made sense, since a much greater proportion of Germans did fight in the East, but the idea that NONE of the veterans he spoke to or met had ever served in the West at all was a bit suspect. It was more or less obvious that this was something of a dodge used by folks who honestly didn't want to talk about it. And how could you blame them?

One day this Colonel was having a beer with his adjutant, both still in uniform. Now, in Germany, as I understand it, the veterans often have (had?) a special room in pubs to serve as their association or meeting hall, whereas in English-speaking countries we tended to have separate buildings for this. So there were a couple of veterans in the room, drinking the afternoon away. Finally one of them comes out and walks right up to the Colonel, very obviously drunk, and says "You! You are Canadian!". The Colonel replied, that yes, he's Canadian. The veteran was on the boil, angry, and went on: "I was in Normandy! The last time I saw a Canadian, he was dead! Killed by my own hands." with that, everybody in the bar just sort of froze.

Now the Colonel wasn't about to punch a sixty-odd-year old man, so he had to try and defuse the situation. He just sort of replied neutrally "Many good young men died in Normandy." the old veteran didn't really know how to reply to this so he just replied "Yes... many good young men dead in Normandy." then he sort of shuffled back towards the vets room, lost in his own painful memories. Minor diplomatic crisis averted.

Once the moment had passed, the Colonel's adjutant turned to him and said "You did it Colonel. You found him. You found the only German who ever fought on the Western Front."

[Mr. Peabody]

Best thread on a wargaming forum in many a year.

Cubs, thanks for getting this rolling.

and in practice then enabling it, because people forget about the horrible effects, exactly like the one story You just shared....

because, if we are honest, the whole issue about remembering a war that started 100 years ago are the horrible consequences it had for the following years after, and even still today......

It's painful to think that as time passes the Veteran's memories of the two World Wars are becoming less a part of official history. Were we lucky or just an extension of the collateral damage because we knew (or still know!) those who the wars wrecked and traumatised; our relatives, friends and neighbours, to bring home the truth of it all.

I was a solder, I fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. I still miss the rush of action and my comrades. Do I want to do it again? No.
 I am perfectly happy getting my jolly's off at the shooting range and playing with little lead or plastic figures.

Cheers for that. 

[former user]

@fram, this must have been a long time ago, when the official policy was that german soldiers had only done their duty, so that they could join the NATO in the cold war. If at all, they could talk about the eastern front, because the official policy allowed them to feel like victims of nazis and soviets alike.

times have changed and after the 80ies the attitude got far more reflected. But the memory has not been passed on to the next generation, sadly.