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Author Topic: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)  (Read 10207 times)

Offline giles the zog

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Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« on: March 10, 2014, 07:48:33 PM »
Russians and Greeks/Belgians/Americans ?



Details and thoughts:

http://thelostcityofcarcosa.com/2014/03/10/a-mystery-photo-from-ww1/

Answers please.
Wandering stars, for whom is reserved, the blackness, the darkness forever.

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Offline joroas

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 08:24:45 PM »
I'm tempted to say Bulgarians. Let me check.

Yes, pretty certain.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:28:02 PM by joroas »
'So do all who see such times. But that is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that we are given.'

Offline von Lucky

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 08:22:59 AM »
Using Osprey's 'Armies in the Balkans 1914-18' as reference, I agree.

More images here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=108897
- Karsten

"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Blog: Donner und Blitzen

Online cdr

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 05:11:09 PM »
In any case Belgians The 'bonnet à floche' is typical. Bulgarians ? maybe not They fought on opposite sides on the Eastern front in WWI.

Offline Too Bo Coo

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 06:33:22 PM »
def not American.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men."
-Willy Wonka

Offline ts

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 07:03:30 PM »
Possibly Belgians in Ukraine, where a detachment with Minerva armored cars fought together with the Russians.

Offline Too Bo Coo

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 07:24:50 PM »
It shouldnt be too hard since they have insignia and decorations.  So if you have a crisper copy just zoom in and see what they are.

Offline joroas

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 08:16:25 PM »
Quote
Possibly Belgians in Ukraine, where a detachment with Minerva armored cars fought together with the Russians.

The chaps either side MAY be Belgians, but the rest are then Russians, soldiers in Eastern armies tended to have peaked caps, not side caps.

Good call.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:28:08 PM by joroas »

Offline cuprum

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 12:36:29 AM »
I can not be 100% sure, but I think it's the Belgians ...



tunic:





field cap:



Medal similar to the Belgian Military Cross 14-18 (Croix de guerre):


Offline area23

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 09:17:43 PM »
Apparently, this photo pictures the Belgian armoured car division in russia. Could they be the same guys? (note they did not use Minervas at the time but Mbregovs or so i'm told.
If you don't believe in lead, you're already dead.
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Offline ts

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 10:17:10 PM »
Not very likely.

from:
http://www.philatelicdatabase.com/postal-history/wwi-belgium-armoured-car-division-in-russia/

The decision to create an independent unit with ACM’s was made in Nov 1914. Major Collon was in charge of some 350 volunteers, who were billeted in Paris. The Corps consisted of the following:

Headquarter staff – 1 officer and 10 men
2 batteries of armoured cars, both of them including
3 cannon-cars – one with 37 mm navy gun
2 machine gun cars with Hotchkiss machine guns
1 command armoured car
2 ammunition cars, 2 lorries and an ambulance
1 bicycle platoon
2 motorcycle sections
1 catering section
1 supply depot with 2 officers and 65 men

They even had a special uniform designed by Paquin, a Parisian couturier, with jacket, trousers and cap of black cloth. For combat there were black leather jacket & trousers.

While in France, both Mors and Peugeot built armoured cars to replace the Minervas.

Minerva motor, Mors chassis armoured car
built at Billancourt, France
37 mm cannon or 2 x Hotchkiss machine guns
Crew of 3 or 4
Armour plating 7 mm thick

Peugeot motor on Peugeot touring car chassis
two built for the ACMs in 1915
1 x 37 mm naval cannon
crew of 3

The ACMs also purchased some English Lanchester armoured cars.

Lanchester armoured cars
Probably one of the best known armoured cars made for WWI
Length: 4.9m
Lanchester: 60hp motor
Top speed: 80kph
Machine gun: 1 x Vickers 303
Crew: 4

On 17 April 1915, French General Clergerie presented Major Collon with the Corps Colours at Longchamps. On 21 April, with training complete, the Corps took up quarters at Furnes behind the Yser in unoccupied Belgium. As the static war continued, there was no use for the ACM. In Galicia (Ukraine) large Russian armies were on the move. King Albert decided to put his armoured car corps at his cousin’s, Czar Nicholas II, disposal.

22 September 1915 the Corps embarked at Brest on the British steamer, Wray Castle, for Archangel, where they docked on 13 October.
They moved to Peterhof, 20 km west of St Petersburg, where they stayed until 11 January 1916. The Czar inspected the corps there on 6 December 1915. The severe Russian winter meant changing their Parisian uniform for Russian sheepskin coats (choubas) and hats (papachas) to keep warm.

They fought valiantly in Galicia, being mentioned 5 times in the Order of the Day. In February 1916, Major Collon, having been recalled to Belgium, handed over command to Major Semet, who arrived in early April. From June 1916, after the campaign, the ACM returned via Moscow to its winter quarters.

With the Revolution early 1917, the Czar abdicated. Karenski advocated a new offensive in which the ACM partook. From July 1917 the collapse of the Russian army spread, but the ACM kept fighting for the White Russians as long as they could. The ACM decided it was time to head home with all the turmoil. However, it proved very difficult for them to obtain the necessary authorisations for departure from the Soviets.

Rather than give their vehicles and armaments to the Bolsheviks, they destroyed their vehicles and hid the weapons and stores, then took them with them. The Bolsheviks were gaining control and the projected route north to Murmansk was not an option. Thus they decided to head east via the Trans-Siberian rail to Vladivostok. The convoy reached China on 27 March 1918, and after being threatened with armed conflict, surrendered their guns.

They left Vladivostok for the USA on the SS Sheridan, and docked at San Francisco on 12 May. They were fêted all across the USA, which culminated in the Memorial Day parade (end May) in New York.
They reached Bordeaux 24 June and passed through Paris to Eu, where they had overdue leave and were finally disbanded. Thus ended the official ACM saga.

On the above mentioned site are some pictures. If there is interest, contemporary pictures from Russia and Galicia can be put up from some Ukrainian books, most possibly gleaned from Belgian sources.

Offline argsilverson

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 12:28:52 PM »
1.- first ask your friend his/her nationality, or better his/hers ancestors during the WW1, this will help us to locate a bit.
2.- definitely they are not greek. The greek insignia of the period should have been a crown above a cockade, and of course no tassels. (tassels had only the evzones but they wore their low fez and not side cap.
3.- the person in the middle of last row, looks very russian!

in general many armies of the era, late WW1 and beyond, wore similar uniforms, supplied either from army surplus or captured materials, hence  some of the greek army of the period wore french style uniforms, even of horizon blue colour complete with adrian helmets etc and then changed to khaki. even the side cap was of french design.
here is a photo of some Greeks in Ukraine during the 1919 expedition
http://kastamonitis.blogspot.gr/2012/02/blog-post_9241.html

These chaps look like having a french bonnet de police with tassels, so I suggest belgians, but I think there is a chance to be french as well, from regiments like zouaves etc. I think that the 156th French division, which took part in the Crimea/Odessa front had zouave designated regiments.

Bulgarian uniforms were copied to the russian cut. So, they look alike, even the cockade was similar, but in different colours.
It is unlike that French/Belgians and Greeks would be comrade in arms with any bulgarians during WW1 or immediately after.

The photo suggests a friendly union and not POWs with their guards, so, I would suggest  they are French and Russians from some southern army (like Denikin's or similar).


argsilverson

Offline cuprum

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2014, 05:59:41 AM »


Here is a photo of the Belgian detachment of armored cars in Russia. As you can see, the Belgians in the forage caps.
Poor things - probably head freezes :)

former user

  • Guest
Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2014, 07:25:37 AM »
whatever it is, it's not a french uniform. no tassle and no plaited breast pockets (yes, they might have worn US surplus, but probably not in Russia)

Online cdr

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Re: Mystery photo from WW1 (?)
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2014, 11:33:58 AM »


Here is a photo of the Belgian detachment of armored cars in Russia. As you can see, the Belgians in the forage caps.
Poor things - probably head freezes :)

Hello Cuprum

Looks like a picture from the revue of the Belgian unit at Tsarkoie-Selo (06/12/15) by Tsar Nicolas.
Note how the Belgian soldiers wear Russian type shoulder boards.

I think the foto could show Belgian troops with some of the Russian liaison soldiers to the armoured car unit (the 5th battery had 33 Russian soldiers)

Carl

 

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