Legions Imperialis, first couple of games and review

[Pictors Studio]

We played two games today.  They were small, much smaller than the game is meant to be, around 600 pts on one side and 750 on the other.  We didn't use any titans as it seemed like they would just be too powerful for the rest of the models on the table and it would just have been a titan game.

Here is the table for both games:





The initial moves in the first game:



Initial moves in the second game:



Straffing run:



Building contested:



Blood Angels and Auxilia facing each other over the plaza:



The assault:




The aftermath:



The Charge of the Ogryn:



Overall, there isn't anything revolutionary in this game.  It uses a lot of the same principles that GW games have used for years, including some that I haven't seen in about a quarter of a century, more on that later. 

There are a lot of special rules in the game but with the forces we had we only use a small number of them and it seems that this will be pretty common, or that your army will have a lot of models with the same special rules. 

The good:

It is quick; our games took about 45 minutes to an hour to play to a resolution. They were small games, but we also didn't know what we were doing and were looking through the book a lot.  I also couldn't get my hands on the cards so there was a lot of flipping around looking up stats and so forth. 

The infantry on tank close combat system is nice, it reflects how tanks should not allow themselves to get swarmed by infantry.  You learn this lesson very fast.  Tanks in the midst of heavy city buildings are very vulnerable to assault, although if they haven't gone yet that turn they can pull themselves out.

The models are outstanding.  They really look great on the tabletop. 

The rules differentiate types of troops, so infantry with small arms fire can't hurt tanks and anti-tank weapons are typically less effective against infantry. 


The bad:

There are a lot of special rules and the rulebook is not organized very well.  There is no index and it was tough to find rules while we were playing.  Obviously this didn't slow the games down too much, but having a little bit more organization would be nice. 


The rules do not reflect the fluff about the differences in ability between Astartes and human troops.  Eight stands of marines going into an equal sized unit of Auxilia is more or less a toss-up.  They seem like they should be better with +2 combat factor vs. +0, but then if the guard are next to other guard they get a +1, they were charging they get another +1, although that goes both ways and the guard have specialized close combat troops with power axes that are almost a wash with marines. 

Since you roll 2D6 to determine the combat the combat factor, if it differs by only one, really is nowhere near as important as the roll. 

Even with shooting they both hit on 5+, the marines have a 5+ save vs. 6+ for the humans but the Auxilia have a 10" range vs. an 8" range. 

In the end you're left scratching your head about why the Imperium invested so much resources into these guys when dropping some regular humans in some carapace armour and giving them power axes would work just as well.

Which brings me to another bad and that is the close combat system.  It is like The Sword and the Flame or 2nd Ed. 40K.  You line models up and then individual combats which totally does my head in for a game that is supposed to be a mass battle game.  The system for combat in Horus Heresy is much smoother. 

The last bad is more of a minor quibble and I'm not sure how it will overall play out as we didn't have any transports in our game, but if you give units a March order, they move 2x but can't shoot, except infantry who move 3x. 

This makes me wonder what the utility of APCs is. 

A Rhino moves 9", so if it marches it goes 18".  Space Marines move 5", so if they march they go 15".  There is a little difference, obviously, but if the consequences of being in a blown up transport are bad at all, no one will field them.  This is minor as they would be an easy fix with a house rule and most of the group there today seemed to agree that would be a good thing to change. 

Since we didn't have any APCs I never looked into what happens when your little guys are in one when it goes hamster Huey and the gooey kablooey but on the surface they don't really seem to be worth it.  I suppose they prevent your guys from suffering fire from most infantry.  Again, a minor quibble as it is an easy fix if necessary. 



Overall we had fun with it.  We may have to make the marines a bit tougher in our games when we start a narrative campaign or perhaps only play marine on marine battles, which would be a shame as the SA infantry are rather nice.

The tanks seem appropriately scaled between the two forces.  The Sicaran we used was not that useful, but could gun down infantry, while the guard tanks were the backbone of that force. 

[fred]

Thats a good looking game!

Good to read your views, I’ve been reading the rules over the weekend and trying to work out the force building rules vs what Epic figures I already have.

I’d thought the melee combat sounded overly fiddly with pared 2d6 rolls.

Transports - I hadn’t seen the move distances were so close, does (yet again) raise the question of what is the point of a Rhino. Units in a destroyed transport get a 4+ save (or their normal save) if it is destroyed

I hadn’t looked at the IG lists to realise they were so close to the Marines stat wise.

The troop types listed in the rules are a really small subset of the possible ones, I can probably only field about 1/3rd of my Imperial Fists, and 0% of my Squats, Nids or Tau. Let’s see where GW go with the lists.

[Daeothar]

What an absolutely wonderful table! 

I have yet to dabble in the original Epic, even though I have all the editions (bar this new one). But when I finally get around to, I aspire to have a table like that...

[Pictors Studio]

Thanks for the compliments on the table.  We are playing again on Friday and the table should look even better by then.

I looked more at the transport thing.  The transports actually allow you to move after the transport moves it seems.  So, if you move the transport 9" you can then move the marines 5 more inches and still shoot with them.

One big thing we didn't do in the game was properly account for the buildings defensive value.  We gave them a 4+ cover save, which was correct, but didn't give them the -2 to be hit, only -1 and didn't factor in the +2 CAF that they would have given.

Those SA guys would never have been overrun by those marines had we done that.  They would have had a base +3 CAF for the regular guys, the commander would have been either +5 or +6. 

It would have been a slaughter. 

[YPU]

Having invested a bit in epic armageddon the past few years, I have to say most things I hear about the new rules don't particularly excite me. I'm trying not to be an old curmudgeon about it but its not easy!

I have yet to dabble in the original Epic, even though I have all the editions (bar this new one). But when I finally get around to, I aspire to have a table like that...

My tables don't look nearly as nice, but you are always welcome for a game of epic with me!

[Daeothar]

My tables don't look nearly as nice, but you are always welcome for a game of epic with me!

That'll be something for the new year then, but I might well hold you to that

[Elbows]

My local guys are considering getting into it - but as with all things GW...planning on tossing the game rules out straight away and simply writing our own or playing something different.  The few games I watched on YouTube made it look extremely...dull?  That was kind of expected, but as you say - the miniature line looks excellent.  Prices are ridiculous, but I think the 3D print market will eat GW alive as far as selling stuff.

Always enjoyed the scale, and I enjoyed old school epic.  I didn't care for the 'modernized" relaunch they tried with...Armageddon?  I don't recall which version, but the one which really dumbed everything down immensely (which they later replaced again, I think?).

So, the scale is cool, the table looks great...but the rules are not surprising.

[Pictors Studio]

I think GW will do pretty well, 3D print market or not.  All the figures that were released specifically for the game (as in not titans that had been out previously) are sold out on the GW website.  My local store got in it's largest GW order in a number of months and, I think, the second biggest order they got in this year and it is all almost gone.  It may be gone, I was there last the day after release. 

We are going to give it another try tonight after digesting the rules for a bit. Looking at it further it seems like the SA are even more powerful in close combat than I had originally thought.  This game will be bigger than the previous one, obviously, as there will have been more models painted since last week.  There will be at least about twice as many SA infantry on the table. 

I'll try to get some pictures posted with thoughts from the game tonight. 

[Brummie]

I think GW will do pretty well, 3D print market or not.  All the figures that were released specifically for the game (as in not titans that had been out previously) are sold out on the GW website.  My local store got in it's largest GW order in a number of months and, I think, the second biggest order they got in this year and it is all almost gone.  It may be gone, I was there last the day after release. 

We are going to give it another try tonight after digesting the rules for a bit. Looking at it further it seems like the SA are even more powerful in close combat than I had originally thought.  This game will be bigger than the previous one, obviously, as there will have been more models painted since last week.  There will be at least about twice as many SA infantry on the table. 

I'll try to get some pictures posted with thoughts from the game tonight.

Agreed, I missed the release date and visited 3 of the local stores, 2 GW stores and 1 Independent. Both GW stores told me they had queues into the shop that they had never seen before and sold out out of everything on the day. The Third shop I was lucky to be able to acquire the main box, but it was all that was left bar 2 building boxes (repackaged Titans scenery). I was very lucky to get it.

Online its also the same, can't get it anywhere bar some Titans.

Think GW might be onto a winner, but I'm not too surprised considering how supposedly popular the original Epic games were. 

[Pictors Studio]

We played another game tonight, slightly larger this time and it was Astartes on Astartes.  We wanted to give the Blood Angels a rest after taking on the Solar Auxilia last week so they took on the Sons of Horus and fared significantly better. 

The two sides were pretty evenly matched in terms of points, it was about 900 a side.



The Blood Angels had two detachments of marines, one shooty with plasma guns and missile launchers and the other fighty with terminators and assault marines.   They also had three predators, two sicarans, four dreadnoughts and two fire raptors.




The Sons of Horus brought two detachments of infantry two.  One was a big blob with all of the above in one detachment.  The other was in a assault gun ship with four regular marine stands and a command stand.  They had four dreadnoughts in thunderhawk and three Xiphon interceptors in a squadron.



Both sides had a knight each, the loyalists had a lancer and the traitors had an Accastus. 

The two forces had the same idea on the first turn.  There was an objective on each side and one in the middle of short table side but on the left of the Blood angel side.  All of the ground forces on both sides rushed forward on their first turn except the IXth Legion dreadnoughts who were overlooked during the command phase so had to advance instead of marching. 

The planes came on and the Xiphons exterminated the Blood Angel predators, while the Storm Eagle deposited its troops in it near the objective in the middle of the table.  These were torn up by one of the IXth Legion planes and the assault gun ship itself was shot down by the dreadnoughts. 

The other Blood Angel gunship put one wound on the Thunderhawk. 

The Blood Angels managed to take one objective. 






The next turn both sides mostly advanced, except the knight lancer who charged the traitor knight.



It was not good for the traitor knight. 

The SoH thunderhawk dropped off the dreadnoughts that tore into the Blood Angels assault detachment while the Thunderhawk itself was shot down by the shooty detachment of marines. 

The Xiphon targeted the Sicarans but were targeted by the Fire Raptor in turn and lost a plane.  They lost another one to the Sicaran that remained after their attack run. 

The Blood Angels still held one objective.


The third turn saw the big unit of XVIth Legion infantry try to take the objective from the Blood Angels but came up a little short and found themselves in the open.  They were fired upon by a Fire Raptor, the Blood Angels shooty unit and the Sicaran. 

The solo command stand that survived the first attack by the Fire Raptor made a rush for the middle objective but was gunned down by the BA dreadnoughts in overwatch. 

One of the Fire raptors was shot down by the last Xiphon. 

Things were growing pretty desperate for both sides.  The knights were still trading blows, but the Accastus stood no chance against the close combat oriented Cerastus lancer. 

The fourth turn saw only one plane left on each side.  The fire raptor went after the Xiphon after the Xiphon destroyed the last Sicaran, but failed to take the smaller plane down. 

The last of the Sons of Horus infantry were eliminated. The Knight lancer finally took down the traitor knight. 

With only a one fighter and a couple of dreadnoughts left the Sons of Horus broke off the engagement, leaving the blood angels the masters of the field. 



 

[Pictors Studio]

The Blood Angels swept across the arid ground, the glint of metal in the distance less of an indicator of their objective than the thermal signatures of the targets against the cold background of the desert morning. 



There was no hiding their advance with the Lysanda Reaver titan striding along beside them.



The traitors were not slow to deploy against the threat.  The House Revedos knight moved to flank and intercept the enemy titan, using the bluffs as cover to get close to the massive war engine without facing the wrath of its guns. 



From their bivouacs, the infantry deployed around the control tower of the remote refinery while the armor moved to intercept the marine force and destroy the tanks coming against them.



As they moved directly toward the foe the loyalist tanks couldn't resist massive amount of firepower arrayed against them.  Losing an entire platoon of predators first the remaining IXth Legion tanks traded fire with the traitor armor.



The traitor knight was causing problems for the Sentinel of the Edge Reaver.  The titan was not quite a match in close action against the faster and more agile warmachine despite the size advatage it retained. 



The titan tries to break off the combat but is not able to escape the annoying attention of the smaller machine.  It isn't until the Astartes use their air superiority to get their assault troops within striking distance of the control tower. 



But the effort is too little too late.  The Ogryns that had been left to guard the tower are swiftly ripped apart by fire from the Storm Eagle and the pistols of the marines before fleeing, leaving the marines a clear path to the objective.



On the fourth turn it comes down to whether the loyalists can get the intititive, as they could then move one of their two assault marines into the building and win the game. 

[Logain77]

Thanks for posting write-ups. I hate watching video reports, and there hasn’t been a lot of other info on how the game actually plays. Looks like you are having fun - are all three of these battles in the 750ish point range? Is it giving a pretty solid game at those smaller point levels? It sounded like you were initially disappointed with how the game played between SA and SM … would you still say it plays better with SM vs SM?  I see no Rhinos in your games - they featured pretty heavily in past versions of epic… not really worth the cost to have them in LI? Would 750pt games work well on a 4x4 table?

[fred]

I played a SM vs SA game a couple of weeks ago, and the SA player played again this week. We are liking the system.

The turn order works well, in earlier versions of epic it was all about waiting to move your strike units from cover to shoot up enemy units that were already in the open. With all moves happening before firing, this is removed, which is a good thing.

In the game I played, we played at 1500pts, I fielded two large Marine Demi-Company’s, with lots of infantry (mainly down to which Epic figures are stated in the rules). The SA fielded a lot more tanks and a warhound. Marine missile launchers were very effective.

As with any new set it takes a while to get familiar with the weapon stats and the special rules. But the basic game rules are very straight forward.

The pairing off of units in combat was a lot more straightforward than I thought it would be. And combat is deadly.

I used Rhinos on one of my formations - they made the formation faster - as whilst the Rhinos only go 2x9” (compared to 3x5” for infantry) the infantry do get to move when they debus from the Rhinos. As always they are a bit rubbish but they are cheap and I have piles of them available.

I enjoyed it and look forward to playing again (and have lots of Marine armour on order!)

[Pictors Studio]

We didn't have any rhinos in the game because I haven't painted them yet.  I have six on my workbench and got started on them but I worked from 0700 to 1900 yesterday and there wasn't enough time in there to get to them.  I managed to get the Kratos done though so that was something. 

I'd still say that the games between the SA and the SM are a little wonky in terms of the infantry.  When the transhuman supersoldiers charge into the well trained but still human elites I'd expect them to do a little more than an equal amount of damage, but it wasn't so.  The tank battles between the two was good.  We are thinking about a way to fix the rules so that they do a better job of making the marines more ferocious. 

But fred is right, the rules are pretty easy to learn and for the most part the same special rules are used by most of the units so you learn them pretty quickly and the names aren't too poetic to not know what they are on about.  Like Accurate.  You get a re-roll to hit when you shoot if you miss. 

As far as lower points values are concerned, a 750 pt game doesn't really have the depth to be that interesting if you don't have mostly infantry and a ton of terrain. 

It really is designed to be a game where you put lots of bigger models on the table.  I'd think about 1500 pts would be the minimum size where you are going to get a good idea of what the game is really about. 

This game was about 1500 pts of Solar Auxilia to about 900 pts of Space Marines if you take out the knight and the titan who neutralized each other all game anyway. 

[Verderer]

Very nice looking games there!

Sigh, I keep missing these releases, once again all the game stores are out of stock... the same happened with Cursed City, luckily they did a second edition with that game.

But I expect they will produce more of the Starter Box at some stage?