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Author Topic: Stoke Field 1487  (Read 47463 times)

Offline janner

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2015, 07:04:03 AM »
I'll shift my response to the force composition sticky to avoid clogging up this thread :)

Offline Atheling

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2015, 07:04:11 AM »
As far as I know, "And there was slain of English, Dutch, and Irishmen 4,000" by 'the Herald' is pretty much it. Vergil adds barely any more, but he was writing in c.1512.

I think you may well be correct mate but I have a niggling doubt that there were only men arrayed as they would have been in England from either the same source or another, I'm going to have to get that garage sorted.... it's a problem of access more than anything else!! Very frustrating!! >:(

The Dublin Pale was organised militarily the same as any English shire and a large number of English colonists were brought in and encouraged to build 'tower houses' and organise local military forces (just like the Welsh Marches)... it wasn't called the English Pale for nothing.

Yeah,the usual thing, as tried in Calais, Rouen, Most of Normandy (barring the marches that were in flux- HYW) etc etc. The thing is, these areas whilst producing troops for the English Crown at various points during the 14th Century, they did not always produce troops based exactly (or sometimes even near) the 'normal' English model or in ,any numbers such as when Bedford had to strip the garrisons of Normandy for the Verneuil campaign. I do concede that in the majority of cases they did succeed in producing such troops, but not always.

Warbeck's Irish were recruited from Dublin, but what that means in terms of who and what were recruited, I couldn't say. The English would be bows and bills... the Irish whatever they carried/wore, which I have no idea of.

I'll have to get hold of that somehow.  :?

Indeed. Somehow is the question. I dearly wish I had access to my library!! I used to know well, the head librarian at Durham Cathedral so I had access to many items that were normally reserved for use only when one booked a session. The poor chap died a few years ago......

Darrell.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2015, 02:54:19 PM »
Can't argue with any of that... indeed the Welsh and Scots Marches seem to have provided the template for both Ireland and France. I did note that Normandy and the Calais Pale were very heavily 'Anglicised' militarily, which no doubt pleased Louis XI no end when he was able to access their manpower for his own needs.

I'll shift my response to the force composition sticky to avoid clogging up this thread :)

Good call!  :)

Offline Gangleri

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 342
Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2015, 01:50:57 PM »
Here is the Earl of Lincoln himself, watching with dismay as the tide of battle turns against him.



Might be the trickiest bit of freehand I've ever done.  I'm reasonably pleased, though I think the proportions of the quadrants and the charges don't hold up to close scrutiny when compared to one another.

warbases?

Just what I was looking for.  Thanks!

Apropos of Irish soldiery, the first Irish will make their appearance in a few days...
Now what is this whole life of mortals but a sort of comedy, in which the various actors, disguised by various costumes and masks, walk on and play each one his part, until the manager waves them off the stage?

http://stokefield.blogspot.com/

http://wellrallyonceagain.blogspot.com/

Offline janner

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2015, 02:21:59 PM »
You should be chuffed with that one :)

Offline Gangleri

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2015, 09:03:41 PM »
You should be chuffed with that one :)

Thanks!

Here is Thomas Fitzgerald of Laccagh, Lord Chancellor of Ireland 1484-87 and brother of Gerald Mór Fitzgerald, 8th Earl Kildare.  He's built from one of the Perry AO standing command, with the bascinet taken off. I've tried to make him resemble the tomb effigies of roughly contemporary Irish noblemen (see here http://www.tara.tcd.ie/xmlui/bitstream/handle/2262/25789/ertk1725.jpg?sequence=1 and
http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/12021/ertk0136.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y).  Note the pointed coif, the old-fashioned armor and the besagews.



He might need a bit of work still.  One thing I regret is that I have not sculpted a baldric for Sir Thomas' sword (almost universally used by the Irish in place of sword-belts), but that would have required filing off the sword-belt and resculpting the armor, which I didn't feel energetic enough to attempt).

Hope you like him.

Offline painterman

  • Mad Scientist
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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2015, 09:45:33 PM »
Very impressive work - great looking conversion!

Offline Stuart

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    • Army Royal
Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2015, 10:26:12 PM »
Sterling work, I like your commitment to this project. Give the sculpting a go, you'll be surprised at what you can achieve

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
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    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2015, 11:46:36 PM »
Sterling work, I like your commitment to this project. Give the sculpting a go, you'll be surprised at what you can achieve

In my case I'm hoping that your words come true Stuart  ??? ??? ??? :)

EDIT: Fab conversion work- you can only get better and what you have done is certainly good enough!!

Darrell.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 06:03:57 AM by Atheling »

Offline janner

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2015, 07:11:35 AM »
I'd not looked at Irish effigies before, so thank you for the links  :)

A baldric would have meant quite alot of work and I note that the seconds one has a sword belt anyway.

Good going  :D

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2015, 09:49:34 PM »
Great-looking conversion.  :)

You know the second image has the date '1637' on the inscription... so might be a case of 'being made to look like' rather than an actual medieval monument relief. So we have 'James Bermyngham' & his wife 'Ellinor Fitzwilliam' there...

I'm intrigued by the design at the bottom left too... I'm guessing its a falcon (?) seizing a popinjay, which might mean that the 'falcon' was Bermyngham's badge... and it looks like three popinjays on the coat of arms top right. So Bermyngham caught himself a popinjay. Cheeky.  ;)

Offline Gangleri

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 342
Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2015, 06:23:09 PM »
Well since you're all going to push me.. >:(



I jest :D  I'm glad you all convinced me to do the baldric.  It was a pain in the ass, and the sculpting isn't perfect, but I feel more satisfied with the miniature overall.  I may go back and sharpen the edges of the baldric a bit before I paint him.  He looks quite grim and businesslike, and I think he will stand out from the English men-at-arms pretty nicely. 

The bannerman behind him is from the same AO set.  There was less work put into him - just filling in the dags on his surcoat, adding a point to the coif, reshaping his iconic HYW helmet a bit to make it less distinctive, and most importantly grinding/filing the rolled-down hose off his calves.  Those are sooooo early to mid-1400s.

You know the second image has the date '1637' on the inscription... so might be a case of 'being made to look like' rather than an actual medieval monument relief.

I hadn't noticed - thanks for pointing that out.  But in truth I didn't use that one as a reference; I got the images out of books but "couldn't be bothered" to upload them  :)

Also finished is the first Irish billman for the Pale base.  These guys will have the same equipment as their English counterparts.  The difference will mainly be one of color: drab aketons and some occasional white Fitzgerald livery rather than the relatively colorful outfits of the Englishmen.



I know the red beard is a bit goofy, but I love painting red hair!

Hope to have a bit more finished over the weekend, and there are some more pics on the blog.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2015, 07:37:30 PM »
I'm sure it was a pain in the *** to do, but if you're anything like me, you won't rest if you know something is not right, even if nobody else has a clue. The figures are looking great though and it should certainly be quite a unique collection when it's all done.

 :)

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2015, 08:28:23 PM »
Peak beard! That guy's a hipster!
;)
Nice conversions. Well done.

Offline Gangleri

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 342
Re: Stoke Field 1487
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2015, 09:39:59 PM »
Peak beard! That guy's a hipster!

"I'm fighting for this royal dude...you've probably never heard of him."

Here are the two conversions in their finished form.  All in all, quite pleased with them, and the paint seems to have hidden some of my less-than-perfect sculpting.



And another man for the command base, a MacDonnell gallowglass. This guy going to take a while to finish - lots more GS to add.



Hope you like 'em.

 

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