Warfare in the YOUNG KINGDOMS (painted miniatures on page 4)

[Siaba]

Being a great fan of Michael Moorcock books and a long time player of Stormbringer/Elric RPG, I have recently started collecting Melnibonean and Pan Tangian figures made by Citadel in 1987 to use them for wargaming.
Has anyone done such a thing ?
Any suggestion for possible ruleset to use ?

I don't know many fantasy figures manufacturers (being mostly an historical figures player), so I would gladly receive any suggestion of figures to use to represent peoples from the Young Kingdoms (other than Melniboneans and Pan Tangians of course ).
Thanks for your help!  

[Heldrak]

After Citadel lost the Stormbringer! license, they rolled the Melnibonean figure range into their Warhammer High Elf range for a while (and they rolled some of the Pan Tangians into their Chaos range) so I would suggest the current edition of the Warhammer Fantasy Battle game as a ruleset (you could you the Mordheim skirmish rules if you want to fight smaller battles).

Some of the Personality figures from the Citadel Eternal Champion line (Smiorgan Baldhead, etc.) were rolled into the Warhammer Empire line, so Empire or Bretonnian figures might be acceptable to represent some of the Young Kingdoms (skip any figures using gunpowder weapons, of course).

Since the Young Kingdoms are supposed to be barbaric (in the view of the Melniboneans and their imitators the Pan-Tangians, anyway...). You might want to consider a figure line that is more specifically barbarians. IIRC Michael Moorcock said that he drew a lot of his inspiration for the Conan series of stories by Robert E. Howard.

Ral Partha Europe has several figure lines that might be serviceable to represent the Young Kingdoms:

https://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_30101.html

https://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_16801.html

[Siaba]

Yes, Warhammer or LotR could be suitable rulesets to wargame in the Young Kingdoms.
Empire and Bretonia figures are, however, too close to their historical counterparts (Renaissance and Late Middle Age europeans) for my taste.
I really like Ral Partha figures. There are enough figures types to build armies and they can't be associated to an historical model.
I used to buy Ral Partha figures 20 years ago, but I found them much thinner than other manufacturer's figures. Is this still the case ?
As I use Citadel figures for Melniboneans and Pan Tangians, other figures must match these in size.

[Heldrak]

As I use Citadel figures for Melniboneans and Pan Tangians, other figures must match these in size.

Due to scale creep, the Citadel figures of today are considerably larger than the Citadel figures of 20 years ago. The Ral Partha lines shown in the links are roughly in scale with the older Citadel lines (maybe a hair smaller).

When I say Citadel Empire & Bretonnians, I don't neccessarily mean the current range of figures- If you're going to reach back into the past for your Melniboneans and your Pan-Tangians, then you might as well for your Young Kingdoms figures too:

Things like this:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20234brettmilitia.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20235brettmilitia.htm

or this:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20238norse.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20239norse.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20240norse.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20241norse.htm

or this:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20284rcchthugs.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20285rcchthugs.htm

Of course, these will be expensive and hard-to-acquire, but then again so will Melniboneans...

Anther solution might be to use the Ral Partha Elves as your Melniboneans and some other Ral Partha lines as your Pan-Tangians and your Young Kingdoms figures.

[Rhoderic]

What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).

[Heldrak]

Things were simpler back in the day (when all of Moorcock's Eternal Champion books were segregated by character: the Elric series, the Corum Series, the Hawkmoon series, etc.). The vagaries of the publishing industry have made much more of a hash of things lately.

In the world of Elric, the Young Kingdoms are upstart nations and city states, following in the wake of the decadent Melnibone and their imitators from the Sorcerer's Isle of Pan-Tang. Although the Young Kingdoms are looked down on by the Melniboneans (and presumably the Pan-Tangians) as barbarians, there isn't that much difference between them in terms of technology. The Melniboneans have a stagnant culture, hidden on their island home behind a near-impregnable sea-maze and protected by their invincible battle barges. In the dim past, the Melniboneans controlled many Dragons and powerful sorcery gained through pacts with various Demons, Elementals & Chaos Lords but by the time of the Young Kingdoms they are almost completely decadent and inward-looking.

The Pan-Tangians can be seen as the oldest of the Young Kingdoms and their culture is described as a crude imitation of Melnibone's.

The Young Kingdoms themselves are pretty ill-defined and thinly written, so I suppose that you could make of them what you wished on the tabletop (although their armies would be pretty rag-tag and ill-equipped compared to the elite troops of imperial Melnibone...).

[dodge]

What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).

I started with Hawkmoon, then elric, and finally corum gave up after that really it all follows a theme

talking abvout this makes me want to look out my elric books.

dodge

[Siaba]

What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).

Heldrak answered well: the Young Kingdoms are pretty il-defined and thinly written.
But we have a few clues nonetheless:
Dharijor is an expansionist state ruled by a king and a small noble class. Cavalry are equipped with horse armour and described as knights. Armour and helmet plumes are generally black although nobles may have more colour and decoration. King Sarasto is noted as wearing dark yellow armour.

Foot soldiers are mentioned in black armour and equipped with halberds. Archers are assumed from the description of a battle involving Dharijorian troops which opens with ‘a rattling black cloud’ of arrows.

Jharkor is ruled by a king and a nobility (although after the death of King Dharmit, Queen Yishana assumes the throne). Jharkorian knights are recorded in gold armour, charging at the gallop with drawn longswords.

Infantry weapons are not described but probably are a mix of bow, javelin and spear. Infantry can be supplemented by camp followers, slaves and serfs. It is not clear whether the latter formed some kind of ‘rising out.’

The White Leopards are an elite guard of 500 picked men who ‘run as swiftly as horses, are as strong as mountain cats and ferocious as blood-mad sharks – they are trained to kill and killing is all they know.’ They are wiped out fighting a rearguard action, in the face of hopeless odds, at the battle of Sequaloris. They fight on foot and are clad in silver armour emblazoned with a leopard.

Tarkesh is a northern state that provides excellent sailors and ships. Galleys are long and low with a single bank of 10-50 pairs of oars crewed exclusively by free warriors. These men tend to be short and dark faced with black hair and beards.

Horsemen are described as knights clad in thick blue armour with red, purple or white plumes and armed with lances. Foot soldiers outnumber horse by about five to one. Infantry weapons are not described but, given the nautical influence of Tarkesh, are likely to be a mix of sword, axe and bow.

Purple towns is an island specialising in trade and ruled by a council of merchants consisting of the nine wealthiest men.

Armour is generally toughened brown leather supplemented by ornate gilded breastplates and helmets. Cloaks and banners are exclusively purple. Some individuals are noted as carrying large axes that require some strength to wield and this may suggest a trained core. Ships crew are generally armed with cutlasses and shortswords.

Shazaar is ruled by a monarchy. Although mostly farmland, Shazaar borders a range of bleak wastelands. Shazaar is famed for its cavalry, ‘wild riders but clever fighters and well disciplined.’ These may be analogous with a range of frontier or marcher forces such as early Norman knights, Anglo-Scottish border horse or eastern European Cossack or Deli cavalry.

Shazaarians are described as wearing bronze armour under grey, brown and black jackets.

Foot troops are presumed to be militia raised from farms with cavalry being provided by retained medium and heavy ‘feudal’ troops supplemented by light horse used to animal herding.

Lormyr, Argimiliar, Pykaraid and Filkhar (southern barbarians): blue and white checked clothing is most common. Breeches and cloaks can also be worn in bright colours, scarlet and green is noted, some of these will be checked also. The clothing gives these forces a celtic flavour which is carried though to the troop types. Some armour can also be checked.

Filkhar is noted for its long handled axes.

Ilmioria is a pleasant land of forest and farmland divided in a number of large city states or Duchies. As suggested, each state is presided over by a Duke supplemented by a council of advisors. The Duchies are bound together by treaties and trade agreements and have formed a national senate. Sorcery is rarely practised and Law is the nominal allegiance.

Fur caps and chequered cloaks are common clothing as are colourful doublets and hose. Ilmioria is also noted for producing fine tooled leather.

Vilmir is a nation dominated by Law. A religious and noble hierarchy presides over a harsh and bureaucratic tax regime. Although nominally headed by a king, the land is often subject to civil war between conflicting noble groups. A reasonable parallel may be medieval England suring the reigns of King Stephen or Richard I but with excessive church influence.

All adult males spend five years in Vilmir’s military, serving in one of five legions. The Grey Defenders are a military elite acting as a combined internal security unit and thought police.

Most citizens wear drab grey with nobles clad in austere white or black.

All of this was found in the HOTT supplement "Wargaming in the Age of Elric of Melnibonē" by Declan McHenry.

Any ideas for suitable figures, someone ?

[Gluteus Maximus]

Most of the descriptions seem to fit in with figures from the Goths at the time of the Fall of Rome through to the Normans, Vikings and Saxons etc of 1066 and that's how I've always imagined the Young Kingdoms. Late Roman cavalry would be ideal for those mentioned using "knights", as of course would Normans. Add a few plumes etc where required and they would fit the bill. There are enough different figures and colour schemes to make each nation distinct from the rest. For a more barbaric look to the cavalry, you could try Huns or Mongols.

For manufacturers, try Foundry,  http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/main.asp

Gripping Beast,  http://grippingbeast.com/

Black Tree,  http://www.blacktreedesign.com/home.html

Renegade,  http://www.renegademiniatures.com/sen.htm

and Old Glory,  http://oldglory25s.com/view_product.php?product=MW144

amongst a host of other manufacturers for this period.

[Rhoderic]

From those descriptions and from what few pictures I can find online that seem to depict soldiers of the young kingdoms, I'm presuming a fairly Northern/Western European style but with a hint of what I would call "undefined exoticism", perhaps brought on by contact (if there is any) with Melniboné and Pan Tang. For nations described as "barbaric", they seem to put on quite a lot of civilized airs, at least insofar as not fitting into the Howardesque definition of barbarians as fur-clad savages with primitive warrior societies. Here are some ranges of miniatures that come to mind as worth checking out.

Black Tree has no less than three fantasy ranges with a fairly classic, "early Citadel" kind of look (though there are some newer sculpts in there, too). Check out especially the Helsinians and Saracens from the Harlequin Fantasy range and the Corsairs, Horse Lords, and Men of the East, South and West from the Legions of the Realm range. They've got lots of Elves too, if you're willing to go that far. BTW, note that there's a 35% discount if you sign up on their website (which seems to be free, though you might have to put up with some newsletters).

http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2309

Mirliton has the old Grenadier range where you might find some suitable humans.

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm

Vendel has some fantasy humans too, but I can't seem to access their website as I'm writing this.

http://vendelminiatures.co.uk/

West Wind has the Dwarf Wars Nordvolk, though I hear these are very big sculpts.

http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_16

[Siaba]

Thank you very much for your help and suggestions. 
Size compatibility with the Citadel figures will be an important factor in choosing a figure range. Being first an historical wargamer, I must say I enjoy Gluteus Maximums ideas of using historical figure ranges.
I thought about using FOUNDRY celts and picts to represent southern barbarians. Arthurians could be nice for Ilmiorians and Late Romans for Vilmirians.
I thought about using Vikings with a suitable paint job for Tarkeshites.

I have a problem with knights. It seems they wore plate armours and plumes, so Late romans cataphracts would be unsuitable and knights from historical range would be too "historical" for a fantasy universe. The Ral Partha knights shown by Heldrak would be nice figures.

What would you use for Shazaarians ? Mongols, Huns, Parthians ?

I have also a problem with Dharijor and Jarkhor. The names sounds oriental to me but these kingdoms are situated in the northern par of the world. Any suggestions for them ?

Does anyone know a figure manufacturer with winged men in its range to depict Myrrhin ?

[twrchtrwyth]

All of this was found in the HOTT supplement "Wargaming in the Age of Elric of Melnibonē" by Declan McHenry.

Which is available about 2/3 the way down this page (update date 10th August 2003):

http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.catherine/wargames/newstron.htm

[Heldrak]

Thank you very much for your help and suggestions. 
Size compatibility with the Citadel figures will be an important factor in choosing a figure range. Being first an historical wargamer, I must say I enjoy Gluteus Maximums ideas of using historical figure ranges.
I thought about using FOUNDRY celts and picts to represent southern barbarians. Arthurians could be nice for Ilmiorians and Late Romans for Vilmirians.
I thought about using Vikings with a suitable paint job for Tarkeshites.

I have a problem with knights. It seems they wore plate armours and plumes, so Late romans cataphracts would be unsuitable and knights from historical range would be too "historical" for a fantasy universe. The Ral Partha knights shown by Heldrak would be nice figures.

What would you use for Shazaarians ? Mongols, Huns, Parthians ?

I have also a problem with Dharijor and Jarkhor. The names sounds oriental to me but this kingdoms are situated in the northern par of the world. Any suggestions for them ?

Does anyone know a figure manufacturer with winged men in its range to depict Myrrhin ?

If you're concerned about scale comparisons, you may want to be careful with Foundry as there is some wide variance in their ranges. Some of their older ranges are tiny, closer to 25mm than 28mm and some of their later ranges are larger (but still small in comparison to modern-day Citadel Miniatures).

Considerations of East/West/North/South should be irrelevant as the world of the Young Kingdoms takes place in a time before pre-history and current notions of what cultures inhabit particular geographic regions don't apply.

[BaronVonJ]

You might also consider that just because the Melniboneans referred to the rest of the world as barbarians, you don't have to think dark ages here. The Greek called everyone barbarians, even though there were peoples around them with similar levels of technology and civilization. Several of the list posted mentioned heavy armor or knights. That's going to be tough to find plate armor in a barbarian miniature.
I'm working on a similar project and using High Elves for Melniboneans, Dark Elves for Pan Tangians, and probably mostly armies from the Middle Ages. I'm thinking of using more Eastern European troops to give a more exotic feel.
-J

[JollyBob]

This is an idea that has been floating around in the back of my head for years, so I am interested to see what occurs with this project.

I always thought that the Ral Partha Fantasy Armies Elves would make perfect Imryrrians, because they remind me very much of the illustrations from the old First/Pacific Comics adaptations by P. Craig Russel, Michael T. Gilbert, Roy Thomas and Jan Duursema.

Have a look:

  http://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_30481.html

As far as the other nations of the young Kingdoms go, a mix of styles from historical ranges would get my vote. If you can track down any of the above mnentioned comics, they would provide you with plenty of inspiration. (No, you can't have mine!  )