Frostgrave - Rules

[ChaosChild]

Question that came up in tonight's game. If a model is positioned touching a wall or other obstacle can it be engaged in combat from the other side of the wall? The two combatants' bases would not be in contact  (there's a wall in the way) but it seems reasonable that they could fight each other. If they can, does the wall give either model any kind of advantage?

[Awesomeshotdude]

Question that came up in tonight's game. If a model is positioned touching a wall or other obstacle can it be engaged in combat from the other side of the wall? The two combatants' bases would not be in contact  (there's a wall in the way) but it seems reasonable that they could fight each other. If they can, does the wall give either model any kind of advantage?

I had wondered about this as well and I'm interested in seeing Joe's answer to your question.

Defended positions, barriers such as walls, hedges etc are covered in 'The Hobbit' rules to my personal satisfaction, so I was thinking about using those, but haven't so far as I want to play Frostgrave for a long time before changing anything (if anything at all). It's only happened a couple of times in our games so far, but we've simply ruled that if the bases are within 1" (with the barrier in between them), then they are assumed to be "In Combat" (a kind of extrapolation of the Forcing Combat rule) and the defender gains either a Light or Heavy Cover Fight value bonus as per the Shooting modifier table.

[Darkson71]

and the defender gains either a Light or Heavy Cover Fight value bonus as per the Shooting modifier table.

But in a combat both models are attackers and defenders simultaneously?

(I might be getting myself confused, and a club mate has borrowed my book, and I've had 3 hours sleep, so everything I've said above is probably wrong!)

[Awesomeshotdude]

But in a combat both models are attackers and defenders simultaneously?

You'll note that the example I have given is one of an adhoc house rule we created for the rare couple of instances where we have encountered the mentioned situation. When making an adhoc house rule, I'm free to label things as I see fit as they are outside the rules proper anyway...and in my example I have labeled the model who is first touching the obstacle as the defender.

[Wyrmalla]

A Summoned Demon activates as part of the Creature phase rather than as a soldier correct? Unless explicitly stated in a summoned creature's (counting Constructs and Zombie here too) spell they default to activating in the Creature phase, whereas creatures part of the Animal Companion spell, despite being creatures, activate as Soldiers as that's noted in the spell.

This causes a bit of concern to me as it somewhat debeaks Demons due to its enemies getting to act before it. I suppose they can still retaliate in combat, but they do seem a tad exposed because of this. I suppose as they're an additional model added to your warband that's fair, though as they're fairly difficult to summon at all that turns me off of that spell a tad. Unless of course there's a way to activate them before the Creature phase?

Edit:

Actually reading that rule I'm a bit confused about the rolls needed to summon. Say I roll a 13 as a Summoner. That means I succeed in casting the spell by 1 so summon an Imp. How do you then summon a Major Demon if you need to beat the casting roll by 13 and you're only using a 20 sided dice which even on its best roll could only beat the requirement by 7? Are you supposed to empower the spell by 5 points and just hope that you roll a 20? Empower it by even more and risk having your Wizard die outright to summon a creature which isn't much better than your average soldier?

I may be mixing up the casting mechanics somewhat here, but I'm just trying to work out why you'd take the Summon Demon spell over the regular Imp spell. Under the above mechanics you'll probably summon an Imp in both cases, however the lower casting amount makes the regular Imp spell perhaps more appealing (compounded by the fact that if you fail Summon Demon you're attacked by a creature). Of course you could roll high and summon a Minor Demon, however those are on the same level as regular soldiers, so they don't seem particularly appealing to me unless they're easy to summon.

So I'm not sure if I'm misreading the rules or not, but under my current understanding of them that particular spell seems a bit mediocre to me given what it outputs and the added negative results of failure beyond just taking straight damage. Well at least for a starting Wizard, which given that my group aren't playing campaigns yet we're more aimed at seeing what the maximum output of a level 1 Wizard is rather than a couple of levels down the line. Even then though the Major Demons don't seem like they're much better than soldiers, though perhaps with the spoken of tweaking in future that may change.

[Aneirin]

A Summoned Demon activates as part of the Creature phase rather than as a soldier correct? Unless explicitly stated in a summoned creature's (counting Constructs and Zombie here too) spell they default to activating in the Creature phase, whereas creatures part of the Animal Companion spell, despite being creatures, activate as Soldiers as that's noted in the spell.

This causes a bit of concern to me as it somewhat debeaks Demons due to its enemies getting to act before it. I suppose they can still retaliate in combat, but they do seem a tad exposed because of this. I suppose as they're an additional model added to your warband that's fair, though as they're fairly difficult to summon at all that turns me off of that spell a tad. Unless of course there's a way to activate them before the Creature phase?

Edit:

Actually reading that rule I'm a bit confused about the rolls needed to summon. Say I roll a 13 as a Summoner. That means I succeed in casting the spell by 1 so summon an Imp. How do you then summon a Major Demon if you need to beat the casting roll by 13 and you're only using a 20 sided dice which even on its best roll could only beat the requirement by 7? Are you supposed to empower the spell by 5 points and just hope that you roll a 20? Empower it by even more and risk having your Wizard die outright to summon a creature which isn't much better than your average soldier?

I may be mixing up the casting mechanics somewhat here, but I'm just trying to work out why you'd take the Summon Demon spell over the regular Imp spell. Under the above mechanics you'll probably summon an Imp in both cases, however the lower casting amount makes the regular Imp spell perhaps more appealing (compounded by the fact that if you fail Summon Demon you're attacked by a creature). Of course you could roll high and summon a Minor Demon, however those are on the same level as regular soldiers, so they don't seem particularly appealing to me unless they're easy to summon.

So I'm not sure if I'm misreading the rules or not, but under my current understanding of them that particular spell seems a bit mediocre to me given what it outputs and the added negative results of failure beyond just taking straight damage. Well at least for a starting Wizard, which given that my group aren't playing campaigns yet we're more aimed at seeing what the maximum output of a level 1 Wizard is rather than a couple of levels down the line. Even then though the Major Demons don't seem like they're much better than soldiers, though perhaps with the spoken of tweaking in future that may change.

For summon demon, you start off with a casting roll of 13. When you level up you can improve it, buy a candle as well. Though the lowest you can get it to is 5 at which point you summon a major demon on an 18 or more (and a minor demon on 12, 11 or 17 if you have a candle). Quite an investment but does get you an additional man/demon. Don't have the stats with me so and can't remember how tough each demon is.

The reason for taking it over summon imp is, that with an imp you will only ever get an imp. And an imp is not under your control, if your men are closer it will atack them and it will only go after the closest enemy making it a bit more predicatable. But starting off sumon imp is porbbaly better, sumon demon gets better with time.

Or you could always have your apprentice nearly kill himself to sumon a demon and hang back!

[Wyrmalla]

Heh, I was actually considering sticking down a Wizard's Eye and summoning the Imps through that, so they'd never be anywhere near me. The base Line of Sight rule supports that too as well.

[ChaosChild]

A Summoned Demon activates as part of the Creature phase rather than as a soldier correct? Unless explicitly stated in a summoned creature's (counting Constructs and Zombie here too) spell they default to activating in the Creature phase, whereas creatures part of the Animal Companion spell, despite being creatures, activate as Soldiers as that's noted in the spell.

This causes a bit of concern to me as it somewhat debeaks Demons due to its enemies getting to act before it. I suppose they can still retaliate in combat, but they do seem a tad exposed because of this. I suppose as they're an additional model added to your warband that's fair, though as they're fairly difficult to summon at all that turns me off of that spell a tad. Unless of course there's a way to activate them before the Creature phase?

If a demon is under your control then it sctivates as if it were a soldier. That means soldier phase by default, and possibly wizard or apprentice phase if it's close enough.

This was confirmed by Joe on p4 of this thread.

[JamWarrior]

You also seem to be missing that you empower after you roll.

But indeed, Summon Demon is a grower.  Mostly imps with the odd minor demon at level 1.  However invested in over the levels I can se it being quite a beast.

You worry that demons aren't much better than soldiers, and they aren't, but soldiers can't just be resummoned over and over if they die.  They make great disposable shock troops as even if they lose a combat they still tied up the enemy.

[joe5mc]

drfunk - it is perfectly legal to cast Mind Control on a demon. So Mind Controlling a possessed soldier is perfectly legal.

Chaos Child - This one is pretty hard to legislate. I would say if it seems like they should be In Combat than you should consider them so. Technically, since all terrain is scale-able, one figure or the other should be standing atop the intervening terrain and thus in contact, however, this is awkward, and I personally wouldn't bother. Neither figure would receive a penalty or bonus in this situation - both figures are just fighting for their lives, not defending a position, and the terrain is just as likely to be a hindrance as a help.

Wyrmalla - For the purposes of activation, any creature under a players control counts as a soldier.

For summon a demon - first up - there is a typo in the spell, so it should read 0-5 Imp. So if you roll a 12 with a starting Summoner you do get an imp. Also, it should be remembered that you choose to empower a spell AFTER the roll, so if you've already rolled a 20 you known you can bump it up to get that major demon.

[reaverok]

I have some questions about creatures that are immune to non-magical weapons and what constitutes as a magical weapon or attack.

I know that attack spells count for the purposes of harming such creatures. Does this include the attack made by Bones of the Earth spell? 

When a solider empowered by a Strength or Possession spell makes and attack does that count as magical?

Are attacks from creatures created by magic, such as undead, constructs, demons, or summoned animals magical or non-magical?

[Wyrmalla]

Can you enter melee combat with a model which is currently climbing a wall? I assume yes if that model is only an inch of the ground, but can the attacker climb a wall then enter combat?

As for combat, can models disengage from it? I came up a situation tonight where one attacker was against multiple defenders. I wanted to move one particular model out of that combat, but was forced to keep them in it. My logic however is that if a model is currently fighting many opponents (though only focussed on one as per how the rule is written) then what's to stop those models from breaking off from that combat? This means that one attacker can wind up tying up many models should they be engaged by them and if those models can't kill that model you'll wind up losing their activations for that turn.

Does Scatter Shot require line of sight at all? There was mention tonight that the rules had changed to make it act like a shooting attack, however it still seemed to damage based on an area rather than the caster being able to see the enemy. It seemed a tad over-powered in that two casters could just spam that spell twice a turn over a two 12'' areas and wipe out an entire warband in short order quick enough based on the dice rolls.

Is Wizard's Eye effected by the spell Crumble? Wizard's Eye is cast on a piece of terrain, but if that area of terrain is destroyed does the eye hover in the air, or is it removed?

[ChaosChild]

Models in combat cannot take move actions (rulebook p33). If one enemy model is tying up several of yours I recommend you make the most of your support bonuses, kill him and then wander off.

Scatter Shot is a +0 shooting attack (see p1 of this thread). Shooting attacks require that the target is in range and line of sight (rulebook p38). Therefore Scatter Shot requires line of sight.

Also, it's worth remembering that the spellcaster's Shoot score doesn't affect magical shooting attacks, so Scatter Shot is always +0 against the targets' Fight scores, cover etc. You'll have to be damned lucky to do significant damage to multiple targets.

[Darkson71]

Though a model in combat with lots of friends can win the combat (damage or not) then push themselves out of combat.

[Drachenklinge]

Played my first Frostgrave. We had a zombie and a dispel.  Can I displel a zombie? And if so, is it crumbling to dust at once or acting in the creature phase, still crumbling to dust after the game.