Grenadier Box "Gold Line" group "painting" Therapy?

[Ray Rivers]

I am really struggling with brush control....

Keep your paint well thinned and let the brush do the work. If you make a mistake, with well thinned paint it is easy to fix. Of course you will have to do two or three coats, but the result will be nice and smooth.

[Revfan]

More progress... still learning!






Photographing certainly helps... It allows me to see more of what I "should" be painting... damn my eyes!

[maxxon]

More progress... still learning!

What are you using for primer?

Many of the models seem to have an excessively rough texture, which certainly does not help painting.

Long ago I used a car primer can that had a "filler" component. It produced something like what I see on your models.

[Revfan]

I am using a car primer...

Or I am just an expert and making metal look like fuzzy wool!

I have since replaced the primer, but too late for these minis.

I read a lot of conflicting advice in my build up to starting this project.  Black Car Primer, White Budget Primer, and No primer were just three of the options/friendly advice I found online.  Since I had black car primer, that is what I went with.  Also, I tried to use it sparingly, and that might have added to the effect as well.

(thanks for chiming in, by the way!)

[Duncan McDane]

Those models are old, well over 30 years old and the metal Grenadier used at the time isn't the best quality. On the surface it's brittle as you-know-what, you could almost use the models for drawing black and white art  .
Did you clean the models with water and soap  before priming? It helps a lot removing mold grease and other dirt from the model and makes the details much sharper, especially on older models.
The choice of what primer to use is a personal one. I use cheap grey ones, suitable for metal radiators in the house  . But whichever you use, after shaking, first spray shoul be on a piece of old newspaper or cardboard, so you know how thick/thin it is, the structure, if you've shaken it well etc. I learned that the hard way, ruining my 4th edition Warhammer basic set High Elfs  .

On topic, I like what I see. Good choice of colours, like to see more.

[Tactalvanic]

They are good  for tabletop gaming and your enjoying the hobby 

thats more important than winning awards and praise

+1 your colour choices

This is a good idea, got me looking at what old grenadier boxes I have to... anything is a good idea if it gets me moving and painting some of the mountain

Variation in quality of castings from way back were common - depended on the batch of casting metal they bought at the time basically - usually the cheapest - not something exclusive to Grenadier - other companies had issues to.

I have seen some awful casts of some old minis I have and some really good supposedly from the same periods/batches - used to look - physically look at the miniatures in the box before buying back then to avoid some of the worst.

suspect issues mainly with the primer if they did not look that blotchy before you primed?

Brush care

Masters-Brush-Cleaner-Preserver

get from amazon or elsewhere depending on your pocket and googlefoo

even a small pot last ages - when I restarted painting after skipping it for reality fo 20 odd years, this rescued a lot of old brushes for me to get on with - it won't work miracles but it does really help make brushes last  a lot longer, and keep their points.

Primer - best tip I got was from somewhere in a post here almost always now use either black (ok mostly black) or white acrylic gesso - dilute and apply - gives good coverage, not to thick, and not to smooth and shiny, and takes other paints well - also one biggish pot is cheap - easy to drop some out, dilute a little, even with just water, and lasts ages.

such as Pebeo-Black-Studio-Acrylic-Gesso

has to be acrylic gesso though as there are big differences between that an artists gesso for oil painting on canvas...

As Duncan says - personal choice - that's my personal cheap choice - find what you like and go with it.

Best places I have found for advice strangely enough seem to have almost always been via LAF or directly from it - your already in the best place you can be as far as I am concerned - far better painters here than me, and they seem to like what you're doing to 

Keep it up and if you suddenly find a set to do that I have to - hmmmmm it might come out of the pile 

[otherworld]

Nicely done, Revfan, you've made a good start.

I've let the side down badly, I'm afraid.  I've only just got down to black under-coating the metal parts, and will try to get some metallics done tonight.  Nothing worth getting the camera out for yet, though. 

Hopefully I'll make a bit more progress in the next few evenings.

[Revfan]

I'm a scrounger by nature, so most of the sets I have were used/painted before and are craigslist/ebay/flea market finds.... no telling how much paint and for how long it had been on there.  I have a medium sized ultra sonic cleaner, so they have all gone in there to remove the old paint and to get cleaned up before I get my shot at em....

Thanks for all the tips guys... they certainly help.

No worries Otherworld... get to it when you get to it!

[otherworld]

Revfan, I just noticed that there are some differences between some of our figures.  Your pole-axeman has a completely different head, and your halberdier has a different weapon, possibly a different helmet too.  It will be interesting to compare them when they're all done. 

I'm pleased with my initial results on the metal parts.  I'm trying out some new paints, having recently kitted myself out with a set of Vallejo Model Colour.  I'm very impressed so far.  The silver is very...well...silvery! 

[maxxon]

Black Car Primer, White Budget Primer, and No primer were just three of the options/friendly advice I found online.  

I use the cheapest matt black spray I can find -- and black gesso.

If you use primer sprays, just make sure they don't have a filler component -- those are intended to be sanded after priming and we don't want to do that.

If in doubt, spray a test on a piece of paper.

[Major_Gilbear]

First of all, I agree that the colours look very good, and I also think that your painting is neat and tidy. That's an excellent start! 

If you would like some suggestions regarding the rough finish and some other tips, I'd be happy to make a few suggestions along with accompanying thoughts/explanations. Then again, If you're enjoying the painting experience as-is and are not too fussed about expending extra time and effort, that's quite understandable too and I'll keep such advice to myself!

[**GS**]

I use the cheapest matt black spray I can find -- and black gesso.

I have gotten away from spray priming all over. Liquid black gesso has many advantages over spray stuff:
It's drying faster,
without any poisonous odor,
brushed on in a reasonable thickness it stretches neatly over the covered surface so that you have every detail picked out instead of smeared away,
the consistence of gesso makes the following paint applications stick/ adhere better.

I'd advise using gesso instead of spray stuff.

Love the old minis btw.!
Cheers
GS

[Revfan]

Major Gilbear

I'd love to hear what you have to say.  Especially it is a learning opportunity for me!

[Duncan McDane]

I forgot to mention that the pre-primer cleaning should be done with a soft toothbrush. When stripping models, I use simple green, brush away the old paint/primer and then bathe them in water with dishwasher soap, brush them clean again and that way you'll have the old dirt ( and even old "rotting" metal ) gone. For me this was an eye-opener and should be done with all models, especially of this age ( also the ones still shining like new ).
And if that doesn't fix the rough texture, you always can grind away - using the smoothest sandpaper with the smallest grains you can find - flat eye catching surfaces like swords, shields and helmets.
But enough off this, you're still ahead of me so instead of rambling I should dig up one or 2 of this set and have a go myself.
Otherworld mentioned the different polearm on one of your figs. I think yours is a conversion or fix. I have this one myself, but without axe head, only the stick remains.

[Major_Gilbear]

Okay, I'm going to go through the sequence here pretty much "in order":

1) Post-prep cleaning.
These are old models, and are lead. They may still have mould release (talc) on them, the moulds may have been a bit worn when these were cast, they may have a bit of bloom (lead oxidation), and may even have been painted before.

Assuming they are not already painted, after cleaning off any mouldlines I would recommend giving them a thorough wash in hand-hot water with dish detergent and a toothbrush.

I also suggest buying some cheap toothbrushes for this - the bristles will be stiffer and clean better than using an old brush, and they are pennies each anyway (literally; I think I spend £0.19 on each!).

Then rinse them, and let them air dry on some paper towels.

2) Initial smoothing and sealing
With old lead models, you can gently scrub the bigger areas with a little wire wool or with a strip of some very fine-grit sandpaper at the prep stage prior to washing to help smooth away any roughness.

However, the old lead is often quite soft, and it can be a fine line between improving and worsening the surface of model unless you are willing to spend some time on it.

Instead, if the surfaces are not too bad, you can use a brush-on Polyurethane varnish (get something decent from a DIY store) to coat the main areas and help smooth them.

Doing this after washing the model helps it stick. If you want, you can give these areas more than one coat, but I would be wary of filling details if there are any.

Regardless of whether you spot-varnish any areas to smooth them, applying a very thinned coat to the whole model may not be a bad idea either, as it seals the model fully (always a good idea with lead models, and it helps to protect them from lead-rot too).

3) Priming
Use a primer to coat your models with an initial layer of paint. I used to undercoat by hand, but switched to spray-priming because the results were far better and faster. Specifically, the spray-on primer was more even and adhered to the model better. Unless you live somewhere very dry or very humid, I think you're better off with a spray primer too.

I use an automotive primer than comes in a rattlecan. It is specifically formulated to stick to metal, and to provide a smooth even coat outdoors without being too fussy about moderate ambient conditions.
The one I use is a sandable primer, but also contains a lot of solvent too. This is good as it gives you a smooth application, and lets the filler in it settle into the surface of the model to fill in scuff and scratches and light pitting.

You can get the primer in several colours too, and these can help you depending on what you're painting. Black is good for darker or neutral schemes, and white is good for lighter or brighter schemes. Black has the additional advantage that if you miss any bits, they are dark and won't stand put much on the finished model.

However, I find black makes the model hard to see when painting. My compromise is to use a mid-grey colour primer that gives you the best of both black and white, and is also easy to see. It takes reasonably little effort to bring up any colour from grey, and silver paints sit well on it too.

4) Applying primer
If you are too far from the model, the paint droplets start to dry before they hit the model, and you get fuzziness. If it is very hot/sunny/wet/dry/humid when you spray, this will affect the paint before it hits the model. If you are too close to the model, the force of the propellant can spoil the paint already on the model and you will also get too much paint landing in a small area on the model.

When you apply the spray you need a distance of about 8-10 inches from the nozzle to the model. Start spraying slightly in front of the model, and then move your can past the model fairly quickly to give it a light coating. Keep turning the model and passing it with spray a few times to get it mostly covered.

You don't always need to fully press down on the can's nozzle either, especially when it's fairly full, because too much paint will be deposited on the model in one go.

It takes a little practice, but it's very easy to get the hang of quickly!

After applying the spray, I let the model sit undisturbed for at least a full day. It's touchable and paintable after a couple of hours, but I've found that the paint will keep shrinking onto the model and hardening if you let it, and that it's much tougher and less detail-obscuring if you do.

Finally, if you are using old cans of spray primer, or if they are nearing the end of the can, don't use them on your models - you run a high risk of getting a fuzzy finish. I keep the older cans for undercoating terrain, where the fuzzing may not matter or is even beneficial.

5) Painting
When painting, avoid touching the models (I see you have them on corks already - good man!).

When applying your paints, use a white ceramic palette (an old plate or tile works well) to put paint onto and add a little water to thin them down. It takes a few more coats to cover than just using the paint straight, but you get a lovely smooth finish and it makes jobs like highlighting much easier. Plus, it's easier to correct mistakes with a clean wet brush as you go!

Another benefit of a palette is that it lets you put paint onto the brush in a controlled manner; so you don't overload the brush, or pick up any dry bits that may have fallen off the rim into the pot, and you can twirl the brush a little to get a nice point.

6) Sealing
When the paint job is finished, I seal them with varnish before touching them - this stops my greasy fingers from spoiling the delicate acrylic model paints!

I start with a non-yellowing UV-resistant brush-on varnish (DIY store again, or use the same stuff for step (2) as for this step).

Then, after a day's drying, I use a spray-on matte varnish that kills the shine (Testor's Dullcote).

Sealing has the further benefit of smoothing the final finish some more, adding protection to the model (helping it resist chips and scuffs), and still provides a nice end result.

I also find that the sealing stage helps to make the colours look more saturated.




Phew, a long wall of text! To be fair, most of the above is actually very fast (and you're likely doing much of it anyway) - it may seem complicated only because of all the explaining.

You can of course do a lot more, but trying to achieve a clean smooth surface before you prime, when you prime, when you paint, and after you paint is all very straightforward and will improve painting results regardless of anyone's skill.

A very good case for this was made by Seb Archer in the tutorial here. It showed me that the difference good prep work makes to a model is huge! So much so that it's never a stage I skip on any more, as even a simple painting effort can be made to look much superior.

Anyway, I hope that my comments here help you in your next batch. For the models you have already done, you can strip and do them again if you want, or you can try a couple of thick coats of gloss varnish and a dusting with matte spray if you want to "fix" the fizziness a bit.