(KICKSTARTER) Mantic: Warpath

[tnjrp]

The next big sciffy gaming thing a-coming, one assumes...
http://manticblog.com/2015/09/11/warpath-kickstarter-launches-21st-september/

The dropship looks promising. Not sure if there'll be anything else I might pledge for there and am not even 100% sure about that. Depends on the size and the price, predictably enough...

[Vermis]

I'd be interested in this, what with the improvements in design and the slightly less cartoony look Mantic took with their sci-fi lines. Depends what turns up in the kickstarter, and how strident those complaints about previous Mantic KSs get.

[Major_Gilbear]

Hmm.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about this:

1) I like the Warpath universe Mantic have created

2) I like the factions that populate the Warpath universe

3) If you back the KS, you will get a *lot* of stuff at a reasonable price (I won't say "bargain" because the size, detail, and quality of a lot of the models has left many people feeling burned).

4) The rules for Mantic's games are usually fairly good and fairly simple, but are very "GW" in how they are written and set out in books. However, I prefer a "PP/Wyrd" style of rules writing which is much clearer and creates far fewer rules anomalies.

5) I think that there will be quite a lot of hard styrene sprues offered through this KS. That's a good thing, but the Enforcers, Forge Fathers, and Veermyn have already received a good base of sprues. I wonder if they will still focus on these factions or try and get the Plague, Marauders, Rebs, Asterians, and Corporation "up to speed". I know the WP KS is intended to wedge plastic vehicles into the game, whatever else may be planned.

6) I would like a nice sci-fi game that I can get pick-up games with, and which is about the size and scale of 40k2E. Mass-battle games like current 40k7E which require a suitcase on wheels to cart your figures to a game in do not interest me at all. The big-model-count 28mm games require too much stuff, too big a playing area, take too long to paint and set up, and are too long to play (unless the rules are super simple, in which case they probably won't hold my interest for very long).

7) I am keenly aware that I whilst I like some variation in my units (number of models, a few upgrades for special weapon/leader types), I prefer units to be discrete entries with their own skills and abilities - variation comes from having different types of units rather than a thousand options for each squad type. I personally feel that this also helps to avoid people from ending up with units that become "illegal" choices in the future, and allows a lot of individual unit modelling customisation without affecting the rules. Unfortunately, I suspect that for Warpath, there will be lots of unit army list options because that way a few unit sprues can go a lot further in terms of variety, and that will suit Mantic better.

8 ) I would like the Warpath game to be presented in a series of themed starter boxes - Asterians vs Plague, Corporation vs Veermyn, Enforcers vs Rebs. This way, players have some variety in how they get into the game, and each starter allows Mantic to focus on the factions they represent. Having a narrative event that adds to the background and introduces the factions to players via narrative scenarios is also a great way to launch the game. Most companies just do one starter set for a game, and I always felt this was a wasted sales opportunity if players didn't happen to fancy any of the factions they contain. Obviously, individual factions would be available outside the starters too, and be released as the starters roll out.

9) I would like Mantic to concentrate on making the plastics as high-quality as they can - the Enforcer plastics were good, but a lot of details were too small, too fine and therefore came out too soft, and a lot of things were just the wrong size (the rifle grenades, which are underslung on their rifle barrels, are a totally different size to the loose grenades on the sprue...) or just pointless (like the officer's insignia which is separate on the sprue).
Likewise, I would like to see the sprues properly populated with the proper unit options and not just a random selection of parts - if a unit can have a flamer and a grenade launcher, I want both in the kit, and not just the flamer in the kit and then leave grenade launcher as a metal/PVC add-on.
Ideally therefore, the options for a unit would be in the box to swap in and out too - so if I can have a six-model Enforcer Pathfinder unit, and it has four different upgrade options available (unit leader to officer, one squad member can have one of two special weapon upgrades, one squad member to engineering specialist for example), then I'd like ten models in the box so that I can build the unit with its options and choose what models are in the unit from game to game.

10) Scope should focus on interesting missions for 20-40 models each. I am not interested in pitched battles, nor am I very interested in the Deadzone-style missions that don't really suit each faction or vary much. I think the poorly thought out missions, and the narrow combat mechanics really hurt Deadzone's potential, and I wouldn't want to see Warpath go down that route.

11) I would like some tactical options in the game that properly reflect the sci-fi environment. Sadly, these were lacking in Deadzone, but I hope that they can be included in Warpath - things like satellite / orbital ship support (intel, area scans for enemy detection and fire coordination, etc), hacking/security/tech disruption and or/engineering, and perhaps different styles of command and control for the factions (with advantages and disadvantages) for each. These in turn lend themselves naturally to the sorts of missions that might interest different factions.

12) Price. In a KS, or if you buy a suitcase-load, Mantic models are reasonably cheap. However, if you just want to buy a unit box or two afterwards they are surprisingly expensive (which usually puts me off buying any). I hope that post-KS, Mantic set the prices at something more reasonable for individual boxes as that will encourage people to grow their armies and play games (rather than be put off by the unit prices, or buying a ton of stuff and abandoning the game as they are overwhelmed with a tide of models all at once). This is important for the game to grow beyond those that backed the KS.

13) Design. I would like Mantic to reveal more concepts and more renders during the KS than they usually do. This would require a bit more up-front work for them, but will allow proper opportunity for people to assess what's being offered and for Mantic to consider feedback. They have listened during the DZ2 campaign to people's comments about the robot dog unit and the cartoony-ness of the Veermyn, and whilst I think they could have pushed the concepts further, I am very much happier with the revised designs. I hope that they listen similarly to the designs of the Marauders (which I don't mind as not-Orcs, but I dislike the alligator-snouts, the hunchback and bow legs, and the giant fists - these could all be fixed to give a far better-looking model whilst still being savage and Orc-y).

14) Rules. Beyond my comments in (4), I would like to see robust mechanics with reasonable scope for variation using dice that roll nicely (D12s, D20s, or D20s numbered as D10s twice). The special abilities and rules can then focus on adding features to units in the game, rather than patching the core game mechanics to allow them into the game at all. I don't want to be rolling three dice per model with additional dice as modifiers - that just gets silly and rewards the player who rolls the most dice. However, opposed dice rolling with modifiers to results and perhaps critical scores (maybe only for certain weapons) would be quick and engaging for both players. I'd therefore expect to see a fairly worked-up preview of the rules to get a proper feel of how the game plays and decide whether I like it or not.

Anyway, I've rambled enough now!

[rwwin]

Mixed feelings about it for me as well.

I'm waaaay over mass battle games and have been strictly skirmish level for years, so the Warpath ruleset isn't terribly appealing to me.   If there's a way to pick up select things, better than what the online discounters will eventually charge, I'll be interested.  A sprue of this and a sprue of that would be what I'd want.  Sadly, if this campaign follows the usual Mantic playbook, you'll have to go in for a big bundle to make it worthwhile.

On the other hand, I still have funds wrapped up in other Mantic projects (Dungeon Saga and Deadzone 2).  The constant churn of overlapping kickstarters from Mantic is wearing me out.

[Major_Gilbear]

The constant churn of overlapping kickstarters from Mantic is wearing me out.

Yeah, I agree.

Not to get into a debate about whether KS is "supposed to be for" companies like Mantic, but I find myself wishing hard that Mantic's business plan revolved around more than endless KS. I mean, when (if?) they ever get a good set of plastic models for a core of games, what then?

And again, unless you buy a massive number of models, their kits never seem to be as cheap as people like to go around proclaiming. Thus, to me, it feels difficult to build a Mantic army unless you join in one of their KS or buy a giant all-in-one box.

I like a lot of things about Mantic, I really do, but they do seem to have a particular knack for missing the mark / making poor decisions about their products which I've never understood.

[Giger]

I'll be in for both rule books (though the main interest is the mass battles) and then get a good few vehicles for the Enforcers and Forge Fathers with a few for the Veer-Myn.  Is this KS a little too soon, quite possibly, I had hoped it would be in Q1 of next year in order to get some funds together but I'll just have to pledge what I can and expand upon it in the pledge manager.

[Momotaro]

6) I would like a nice sci-fi game that I can get pick-up games with, and which is about the size and scale of 40k2E. Mass-battle games like current 40k7E which require a suitcase on wheels to cart your figures to a game in do not interest me at all. The big-model-count 28mm games require too much stuff, too big a playing area, take too long to paint and set up, and are too long to play (unless the rules are super simple, in which case they probably won't hold my interest for very long).

7) I am keenly aware that I whilst I like some variation in my units (number of models, a few upgrades for special weapon/leader types), I prefer units to be discrete entries with their own skills and abilities - variation comes from having different types of units rather than a thousand options for each squad type. I personally feel that this also helps to avoid people from ending up with units that become "illegal" choices in the future, and allows a lot of individual unit modelling customisation without affecting the rules. Unfortunately, I suspect that for Warpath, there will be lots of unit army list options because that way a few unit sprues can go a lot further in terms of variety, and that will suit Mantic better.

10) Scope should focus on interesting missions for 20-40 models each. I am not interested in pitched battles, nor am I very interested in the Deadzone-style missions that don't really suit each faction or vary much. I think the poorly thought out missions, and the narrow combat mechanics really hurt Deadzone's potential, and I wouldn't want to see Warpath go down that route.

These - yup.  There's definitely a space in the market for a lean SF game that plays with 4-8 fireteams of basic troops and specials, a couple of characters and a couple of vehicles.

Warzone Resurrection is the right scale, but put me off with all the special rules for individual troops, army special rules and special tactics.  I... just... want... to... roll... some... frigging... dice!

Tomorrow's War... I have flashbacks to the endless reactions and trying to remember whose turn it was...

Gates of Antares - could be worth a look and at least looks science-fictional with drones and unit shields and the like.

I can't find a link, but wasn't the Warpath Kickstarter going to do rules for two different sizes of game?

I like a lot of things about Mantic, I really do, but they do seem to have a particular knack for missing the mark / making poor decisions about their products which I've never understood.

Sad but very true  

[Major_Gilbear]

Gates of Antares - could be worth a look and at least looks science-fictional with drones and unit shields and the like.

I can't speak regarding the other games, but the rules for BtGoA are... Not very sci-fi actually.
In fact, it feels like a weird cross between 40k2E and Epic40k - you'd think that would actually appeal greatly to me as I like both of those games, but instead all I keep seeing are missed opportunities to build something new and cool. 

I can't find a link, but wasn't the Warpath Kickstarter going to do rules for two different sizes of game?

See, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean about Mantic making poor decisions!

With Deadzone, trying to make it both a pick-up skirmish and a campaign game meant that neither worked very well in the end. Not least because players are looking for very different things from each style of game, and that basically means two completely different games are required really (even if they share minis and scenery).

I personally think that Warpath should be some 20-40 models each, and that a new game with a new scale should be cooked up for mass battles. It's pretty obvious really, and there is clearly an Epic-style-game-shaped-gap in the market right now that Mantic could fill if it wished. Then again, not sure I want Restic 6mm infantry models <shudder>.

[Momotaro]

Then again, not sure I want Restic 6mm infantry models <shudder>.

"That one's a figure.  The one next to it is a mouldline..." 

Warpath and Warpath: Firefight are the names of the two rulesets.  We've not been told what they cover yet though you can probably guess 

[Hat Guy]

I'll be in for a rulebook only pledge I think. I've played a couple of Warpath games and there's something to them, they just need some refinement.

[Giger]

Here's some info from their blog:

Back in May we revealed the alpha version of our latest Warpath rules. Warpath has gone through various iterations since the initial tests back in 2011, and this latest version goes back to the roots – it is a mass-battle game with abstracted details to make it quick and simple to play – something we’ve had huge success with, as Kings of War fans will know. However, we will cover that version of Warpath in detail tomorrow.

Today we’re here to talk about something a little different…

The feedback on this year’s alpha was varied. The mechanics largely went down well as we’d hoped, and the players who had a chance to test out the rules gave us some really reassuring comments. However, for a portion of our community the rules didn’t provide the gaming fix they were looking for. The Warpath we put out is something quite different, whereas a lot of people were searching for a viable alternative to the other games on the market that they are currently playing, and wanted certain design points of those games carried through to Warpath.

These gamers wanted a game that had more granularity – something that could be played with smaller forces (somewhere from platoon to company level, as opposed to an “army”, but not single squad level like Deadzone) and something that gave more weight to the individual figures, rather than the units. This is understandable – wargaming is a hobby after all, and you will have all spent many hours lovingly painting your models – making them a more integral part of the action is a just reward.

In response, we commissioned Warpath: Firefight. The brief was to take the same objectives that we had with Warpath, and carry forward some of the game mechanics, but build them into a game that ticked all of these boxes – individual casualty removal, more detail, and less abstraction of stats and abilities – a more cinematic game. The game would use fewer figures, and zooming in on the action would alter some of the strategic choices, but the mandate to create a fast, slick, sci-fi game still remained.

The core objectives of the game were to firstly create something that “felt” sci-fi, with a focus on shooting and advanced tech. The game was to be dynamic and reactive, with emphasis on suppressive fire, tactical formations, combined arms, and as much tactical choice as possible. Terrain was to be majorly important both as an in-game objective, and to make the playing field obviously different from other wargames like Kings of War. In between all of these things, we absolutely had to keep the core rules as simple as possible, as you have come to expect from Mantic. These goals are something that we are taking forward with both Warpath and Firefight, but in different ways.

To ensure that Firefight was approached with fresh eyes and to avoid confusing it with the “mass-battle” mindset of Warpath, we wanted it written by a completely different designer to the original game, and who better than Mark Latham? Mark has previously been in charge of Warhammer 40,000 and also headed up the White Dwarf team, so he knows his way around a sci-fi wargame.

Mark is still working on the rules themselves, but he has put together some notes on some of the things to expect from Firefight as opposed to Warpath.

• Every model matters – casualty removal, positioning and variation of weaponry and equipment within a unit are all important.

• Detailed rules for unit interaction considering the more free-form approach.

• More detail for weapon types and special rules.

• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.

For those of you eager to try out the Firefight rules, if there is anything else that you want to see, please let us know below and we will make sure Mark sees all of the comments. This game is for you guys after all – we want it to be perfect!

Let us know what you think in the comments below, and check back tomorrow for more information on the Warpath rules!

Remember, the Kickstarter goes live at 1:30pm BST on Monday 21st September.

I was always more interested in the mass battles game however with Mark working on Firefight you can colour me interested.

[Major_Gilbear]

It's good to see that Mantic appear to have taken on board many of my comments already (seems I'm not alone in my thoughts!) - but I absolutely do not want true line of sight!

TLOS is "cool" in the way that you would lie on the floor to see your action figures at eye-level whilst making pew-pew noises as a kid, but if you are expected to have any reasonable density of terrain in a game it breaks down immediately.

It's also a huge source of argument and debate because it makes something that should be quick, universal, and objective (a rule) into something that is vague, exploitable, and subjective (a personal preference/guess to determine that you are "right" or not).

I would also be wary Mantic of confusing "detail" with an over-burden of unit/model options. Games like Infinity solve this by having fixed loadout profiles for each model, but I'm not sure this would work at squad-level in the same way. Detail is good, but having too many unit upgrade options is just messy (and puts new players off too - leading to the rise of things like "net-listing" which is the surest death-knell of any fun that might be had in a game).

Anyway, it seems that Mantic are listening hard and so I am prepared to be very pleasantly surprised!

[Vermis]

who better than Mark Latham? Mark has previously been in charge of Warhammer 40,000 and also headed up the White Dwarf team

Who worse than Mark Latham?

The TLOS thing just confirms that concern.

[manic _miner]

 Just paced my pre-order for Gates of Antares box set from Wayland games with 20% off.Looking forward to seeing the rule book.

[obsidian3d]

I might be interested in the rules and a few pieces here or there, but with all the stuff I've bought over the past 5+ years, I don't really need figures to go with whatever game they put out. I'll be keeping an eye on it at launch though.