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Author Topic: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth  (Read 44127 times)

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2016, 01:34:27 PM »
What I hate about Orcs and goblins in most wargames and RPGs is that they have become a silly race of idiots, who speak in some kind of mockney accent. To me, from my reading of the LotR and other Tolkien, Orcs are just as clever as men. They are just twisted, evil and self-loathing. But they are cunning and inventive, not idiots.

Yes, absolutely - and what Captain Blood said too!

For me the best representations of Orcs have been the old Perry Citadel pre-slotta ones (which are rather too large, I'll concede). Two things I like about these models is 1) they look evil and nasty and built for the business of war without looking silly or like caricatures, and 2) they had kit. Bottles, bags, clothes, armour - they obviously were warriors but it felt like to me they had their own culture, manufacturing capabilities etc. etc.

I think they're brilliant too. Not entirely Tolkienesque, but wonderful in their own right. And yes, the kit really helps to bring the models to life. Just as I lament the "gamefication" of Tolkien, I also lament the "wargamefication" of Citadel's ranges. When the models were designed primarily for RPGs - and when Warhammer was still, to an extent, an RPG with facility for larger battles - they were much livelier, with all kinds of interesting details (and not just skulls!).

Cubs' jaw-dropping renditions of some of those have to be seen to be believed - extraordinary.

For me, though, the most Tolkien-appropriate ones are definitely Jez Goodwin's Asgard range - decades old but utterly wonderful. On which note ...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 01:36:55 PM by Hobgoblin »

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2016, 01:57:45 PM »
..and i thought i took Middle earth too seriously ;)

I only take the orcish bits seriously! Honest ... well, apart from the trolls and the balrogs ...  ;)

I think you are on the right track. I always assumed that the "goblinoid " races come in all shapes and sizes and are all "goblins". Orcs was just a name/discription for the larger ones ("goblins" are lesser goblins and orcs greater goblins).

The only problem with that is that "orcs" is used a lot for the very smallest ones (the tracker in Mordor and the Durthang line are never described as "goblins") and "goblin" is used a lot for the big ones. In fact, in LotR, "goblin" is used much more often for big soldier-orcs (uruks) than it is for the smaller types from the North.

If i remember rightly Saruman was accused of the crime of crossing orcs with wild men and creating the Uruk-hai who could move and fight during the day.  Sarumans orcs were for me normal, not interbred creatures that he gathered around him from the misty mountains or has borrowed/leased ( lol) from Sauron.

On this, I think Tolkien vacillated quite a bit (as he did on a lot of issues). Certainly, no one really remarks on the Isengard Uruk-hai's physiques as unusual (they are big, but so are the uruks we see elsewhere). And the Appendices give us a timeline that goes like this:

1. Sauron creates the uruks;
2. He sends some of them to the Misty Mountains
3. Some of the "great uruks" that raid Rohan from the Misty Mountains have entered into the service of Saruman.

But then there is the suggestion that Saruman has been involved in what Tolkien calls (somewhere) "possible special breeding of orcs". The half-orcs are proof of this (and The Battle of the Fords of the Isen shows that these were used as axe-wielding, heavily armoured shock troops in Saruman's armies), and then there is the passage in Morgoth's Ring:

"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

The implication here is that the Isengard Uruk-hai are the "Men-orcs, large and cunning" (usually described simply as "orcs" or "goblins" in LotR) and the half-orcs at the Isen, Helm's Deep and the Shire are the "Orc-men treacherous and vile" (generally described as Men, though occasionally as Orc-men, goblin-men or half-orcs).

Cheers!

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2016, 02:01:05 PM »
Nice post,and I agree!

Cheers! I've been trying to find your wonderful Asgard orcs for ages now - and have just rediscovered them via your blog. Tremendous work, and everyone should have a look at them.

Do you have any more shots of them? I seem to recall seeing them on another forum (or maybe on this one, long ago).

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2016, 02:08:39 PM »
Pretty much what I've thought all along. I'm with emosbur. Tolkien was a linguist and etymologist, so it was always going to be about using different descriptive names and languages.
When I first started fantasy gaming back in the day I was given some old Minifigs Orcs. Despite their obvious vintage I kinda liked them and kept them and have adapted them over the years and incorporated them into my own army. I'm glad to see the swordsman are now available so I can build up my unit further...

Earlier attempts at modifying historical rulesets for ME often suggested a more humanoid alternative for the Orkish legions using a combination of Dark Age warriors and even Romans as proxies. As has been stated it is the RPG and gaming fraternity that have morphed these humanoid warriors over the years. Their origins have been stated as warped and corrupted versions of elves by Melkor.
When I started collecting I favoured Nick Lund's more humanoid Chronicle Orcs and graduated to his larger versions when he worked for Grenadier.


Those look tremendous! I envy your vast Lundian horde, and the Minifigs ones are magnificent too.

There were a whole host of human allies fighting alongside the less human forces of Mordor, which is an area I am particularly interested in. ATM I am casting about for historical proxies for the Dunlendings and for the black clad cavalry host that issued from Minas Morgul before Pelennor in the books. I find it interesting that the colour black features as emblematic of good AND evil in the novels. Black is the new grey in Middle Earth apparently...

Here's a tantalising thought. Might those black-clad riders have been orcs? It sounds heretical, I know, but I present two pieces of evidence.

1. Mordor-orcs have stolen almost all the black horses of Rohan. Did they just lead them away? Or did they ride them back to Mordor? It might be hard for an orc to ride a full-size horse, but on the other hand, plenty of petite women ride horses. So a large uruk (say 5' or so) might have little problem.

2. (This is the really tantalising bit). I was reading The History of Middle Earth and the exchanges between the characters who were eventually settled as Shagrat and Gorbag in particular (they changed and swapped names quite a bit in the earlier drafts). Anyway, what caught my eye is that photo-Shagrat sneers at proto-Gorbag and his troops as "horseboys" from Minas Morgul. That made me look at Minas Morgul's black-clad riders with new eyes ... not least because I have an old Grenadier orc on a large horse to paint up.

Offline Jagannath

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2016, 02:28:56 PM »
Brilliant posts, really fascinating.

I must say that, accurate or not, I love the PJ-sequel orcs. I occasionally play the Shadow of Mordor game and that mix of body shapes and tribalsesque styles the orcs have really appeals to me.

I agree that I think we could all do without the mockney accents mind.

Offline Rhoderic

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2016, 03:41:39 PM »
As this discussion is now touching on fantasy worlds that Tolkien didn't create, I think that the orcs, goblins and other "goblinoids" of non-Tolkien fantasy settings have plenty of self-worth as what they are (as opposed to what they're not, which is to say Tolkien's orcs). Otherwise we may as well be sniping at Tolkien also - he's hardly innocent of engaging in the bastardisation of concepts that weren't his at first.

I do find Tolkien's legendarium, in its unadulterated and "correctly understood" form, a refreshing counterpoint to the D&D-derived traditions of fantasy, but my point is that they all have self-worth independently of each other. Even GW's gorillaform orcs have their place in the fauna (although I'm not overfond of them myself).


Just as I lament the "gamefication" of Tolkien, I also lament the "wargamefication" of Citadel's ranges. When the models were designed primarily for RPGs - and when Warhammer was still, to an extent, an RPG with facility for larger battles - they were much livelier, with all kinds of interesting details (and not just skulls!).

I'll go a bit OT here. While I find that some old ranges are unsatisfactory in terms of sculpting quality, I do agree that the "wargamefication" of orcs and goblins (and other fantasy classics) into figures lacking personality (by way of "standardised" poses, overly similar weapons, armour and clothing, and a "streamlining" of details) is a bad development. What I hate the most about it is that it's leading to a competitive culture of "haves and have-nots" among wargamers and miniatures collectors, a culture which boils down to owning difficult-to-acquire OOP figures. Those that own the figures have nothing to worry about. They can pat themselves on the shoulder for having put in the hours and the money, or for having entered the hobby at an early enough stage that they were able to purchase the figures when they were still in production. Where does that leave the rest of us? It hardly sounds like an attractive hobby to me - probably even less so for newcomers. An overfixation on OOP collecting would only lead to the atrophication of the hobby, I think. What we need is more new figures (not least of orcs and goblins) that aren't so "wargamefied", to replace (and improve upon) those that have gone OOP and to provide a better alternative to modern "wargamefied" ranges like GW and Mantic.
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Offline Cubs

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2016, 03:50:02 PM »
As this discussion is now touching on fantasy worlds that Tolkien didn't create, I think that the orcs, goblins and other "goblinoids" of non-Tolkien fantasy settings have plenty of self-worth as what they are

Yeah, I've got to say, I do enjoy the 'classification' of Goblins as little greeblies, Orcs as bigger, tougher dudes, hobgoblins as eastern 'Mongol' type goblinoids and Half-Orcs as general cross-breeds. I even like the idea of the Black Orc as the hulking brute. having said that, they've all got too big for my taste - and not just GW, but all manufacturers have gone the same way.

I like the idea of sticking closer to Tolkein as regards the proportions perhaps, but keeping to a standard use of the names with which I am familiar. My perfect style of Orc is probably the 80's and early 90's fellas, with barrel chests and crooked, sinewy limbs. Goblins should be very small and, as Hob says, Hobbit sized.

I do feel that Half-Orcs kind of got lost by the way though. They were never really developed and were caught as neither fish nor fowl, with no real reason for anyone to collect them.
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Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2016, 04:13:23 PM »
As this discussion is now touching on fantasy worlds that Tolkien didn't create, I think that the orcs, goblins and other "goblinoids" of non-Tolkien fantasy settings have plenty of self-worth as what they are (as opposed to what they're not, which is to say Tolkien's orcs). Otherwise we may as well be sniping at Tolkien also - he's hardly innocent of engaging in the bastardisation of concepts that weren't his at first.

Yes, that's very true. As my "Song of Blades" thread shows, most of the goblins I paint aren't Tolkienesque at all: they're fish-white, like Alan Garner's svart-alfar, or red, or any colour I fancy. The word "orc" didn't really exist in English before Tolkien (it's a hapax legomenon in Old English, as it only appears in Beowulf, and then only in the compound orcneas.

I do find Tolkien's legendarium, in its unadulterated and "correctly understood" form, a refreshing counterpoint to the D&D-derived traditions of fantasy, but my point is that they all have self-worth independently of each other. Even GW's gorillaform orcs have their place in the fauna (although I'm not overfond of them myself).

Yes, again, that's true. I love the Perry C15 orcs, which are much more appropriate for D&D than Tolkien. And I love pig-faced orcs - especially the old Minifigs ones.

I'll go a bit OT here. While I find that some old ranges are unsatisfactory in terms of sculpting quality, I do agree that the "wargamefication" of orcs and goblins (and other fantasy classics) into figures lacking personality (by way of "standardised" poses, overly similar weapons, armour and clothing, and a "streamlining" of details) is a bad development. What I hate the most about it is that it's leading to a competitive culture of "haves and have-nots" among wargamers and miniatures collectors, a culture which boils down to owning difficult-to-acquire OOP figures. Those that own the figures have nothing to worry about. They can pat themselves on the shoulder for having put in the hours and the money, or for having entered the hobby at an early enough stage that they were able to purchase the figures when they were still in production. Where does that leave the rest of us? It hardly sounds like an attractive hobby to me - probably even less so for newcomers. An overfixation on OOP collecting would only lead to the atrophication of the hobby, I think. What we need is more new figures (not least of orcs and goblins) that aren't so "wargamefied", to replace (and improve upon) those that have gone OOP and to provide a better alternative to modern "wargamefied" ranges like GW and Mantic.

I very much agree with the last part, but remember that quite a lot of the old, characterful figures are still available (including the entire range of Asgard orcs, through Viking Forge, and lots of Ral Partha stuff). On eBay, I never pay above modern miniature prices; I don't buy a great deal, but I use a "stop-loss" principle based on contemporary prices for new metal figures. My Chronicle wolfriders (three units for Dragon Rampant) were assembled very quickly at between £3 and £4 per wolf/rider combo, I think. Also, manufacturers like Reaper still produce plenty of RPGish stuff.  Their Bones lizardmen, for example, are quite characterful, with the same sort of accoutrements as the old orcs that EvilDoctor was talking about. I think you could get some very characterful (and cheap!) wargaming forces together using only Reaper Bones - especially if you shed the "mono-racial" shackles that GW did so much to introduce.

To expand on that last point: it's a little odd to me that fantasy wargaming has descended into armies of orcs OR lizardmen OR humans OR beastmen (and so on). When I played early Warhammer as a kid, we built our forces as whim and pocket money dictated. So I had lizardmen and orcs and slann  and dragonmen and chaos warriors in the same army. And my friends did much the same. I can remember the arrival of Ravening Hordes (which had a bigger impact in the "racialising" regard than the earlier Book of Battalions and Forces of Fantasy), but we largely ignored it (until just before we all abandoned gaming).

Today, when I play a game with some of the same friends, or with my kids, we just pick whatever troops we want and rationalise it afterwards. For Lion and Dragon Rampant, for example, I typically put together a number of units and let my opponent pick whichever they want. I think that's (a) a more fun approach and (b) more "authentic". The armies of fantasy literature (and myth) are often hugely varied. At the Pelennor, for example, the army of Mordor contains Haradrim, Mumakil, "troll-men" of Far Harad, Variags (similar to vikings, presumably), Easterlings, mountain trolls, Orcs (mainly uruks, one would presume, but also some of the smaller breeds, perhaps), fell beasts and wraiths. And think of the classic Warhammer poster of the Joe Dever/Gary Chalk siege. The attacking forces include orcs by Citadel, Ral Partha and Minifigs (complete with porcine snouts), lizardmen, chaos warriors and much else besides.

Taking that sort of approach allows the use of many more varied figures, and allows the RPG-friendly manufacturers to come into their own. Why, for example, should the leader of a predominantly Orcish force be an Orc chieftain. What about a white wizard ... ?

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2016, 04:20:16 PM »
I do feel that Half-Orcs kind of got lost by the way though. They were never really developed and were caught as neither fish nor fowl, with no real reason for anyone to collect them.

It's a shame, as the old Aly Morrison half-orcs are brilliant figures - very RPGish in their varied gear, and thoroughly disreputable-looking.

I think they were probably victims of their lacklustre Warhammer profiles - just like humans, but very slightly worse. In that way, they were like the Fimir - nice figures let down by their relative gaming weakness (caused, in the Fimir's case by a big base size).

Oddly enough, Tolkien's half-orcs appear to be crack troops: "...there appeared a company of men or orc-men (evidently dispatched for that purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes." These are the guys that kill Theodred, Theoden's son.

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2016, 05:03:36 PM »
Skewing slightly OOT (apologies) but my Goblins Army (includes Orcs, Ogres, etc.,) has a lot of 2nd hand, painted by others, OOP figures (though Iron Wind Metals is changing that last) that are painted as Greenskins/Blueskins which I rationalize as body painting/dyeing based on religious/philosophical leanings of a particular faction/tribe.  It simply is not worth my time to destroy a serviceable paint job to substitute my own inferior work.

Back on topic (OT):

I don't mind the single poses for mob units such as , http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Image:Rp-e611.jpg, or but the revitalization of adventurer or leader figures equipped for more than just hack and slash would be welcome to me.  I am trying to figure out how to represent a supply train for a Goblin army where the pack animals wouldn't be eaten before the battle.  Slave humanoid burden bearers perhaps?

And agreed that the army leader doesn't just have to be an Orc/Goblin because the mass of the army is Goblins.  Sitting Tolkien aside, (heresy though it seems to me at times) why not a rogue Dwarf or renegade Elf leading the host??
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Online Hobgoblin

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2016, 05:55:59 PM »
Skewing slightly OOT (apologies) but my Goblins Army (includes Orcs, Ogres, etc.,) has a lot of 2nd hand, painted by others, OOP figures (though Iron Wind Metals is changing that last) that are painted as Greenskins/Blueskins which I rationalize as body painting/dyeing based on religious/philosophical leanings of a particular faction/tribe.  It simply is not worth my time to destroy a serviceable paint job to substitute my own inferior work.

Well, there's nothing wrong with goblins being any colour under the sun!  :) My original post wasn't designed to inveigh against any specific gaming practices - or, heaven forfend, goblin colours! - but to explore the ways in which some of the tropes of Middle Earth gaming are quite far removed from Tolkien's Middle Earth.

I recall seeing very nice-looking blue Ral Partha orcs in the dim and distant past - perhaps in an early White Dwarf?


I don't mind the single poses for mob units ... but the revitalization of adventurer or leader figures equipped for more than just hack and slash would be welcome to me.

I think single-pose units can look really good too. What I was thinking of by "wargamefication" was not so much single poses as the figures being sculpted only with weapons and armour, rather than with knapsacks, game animals, trophies, water bottles and so on.

 I am trying to figure out how to represent a supply train for a Goblin army where the pack animals wouldn't be eaten before the battle.  Slave humanoid burden bearers perhaps?

What about lobotomised ogres? Citadel used to do a lovely slave ogre. Or some sort of large, scaly beast?

And agreed that the army leader doesn't just have to be an Orc/Goblin because the mass of the army is Goblins.  Sitting Tolkien aside, (heresy though it seems to me at times) why not a rogue Dwarf or renegade Elf leading the host??

Yes indeed! A haughty, superbly dressed and generally disdainful elf surrounded by a horde of his slavering minions has a tremendous appeal - with shades of Bowie in Labyrinth. I like the dwarf idea too - and it could even work in Middle Earth. The dwarf Mim hires Orcish mercenaries in the Book of Lost Tales, and Tolkien says in The Hobbit that Orcs have even made alliances with wicked dwarves ...

Offline Conquistador

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2016, 06:13:41 PM »
<SNIP>

I think single-pose units can look really good too. What I was thinking of by "wargamefication" was not so much single poses as the figures being sculpted only with weapons and armour, rather than with knapsacks, game animals, trophies, water bottles and so on.

<SNIP>

I think it is a result of the idea that warriors strip off all the impedimenta except weapons, armor, (no "u"  ;) ) shield, etc., before combat.  Which goes back to the balance between war games and FRPG games.  As primarily a war gamer currently (convince my wife to return to FRPGs and I would have a sea change in my approach.)  

There are no supply trains in dungeon crawls.  :o   lol  You have what you carry.

Though my last buy of fantasy figured larger than 15/18mm was from Reaper and the figures had more than just their combat gear (much more in some cases) in many cases.  Those would be fine for skirmish games but painting a couple hundred of them in all their finery would be beyond my talents and patience.

That said I have this lingering desire for a unit or two of marching with gear/supply train figures.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2016, 07:45:32 PM »
There are, of course, a few takes on the whole "stripped down for war" idea and "carrying lots of soldiering equipment" idea. People seem to be referring to one or the other as the "normal" look of a warrior (or orc, in this case), but we could probably look at the situation from the point of view of both being possible - the orc carries his pack, water bottle, pouch with whetstone, etc., in the same way that modern soldiers carry something like 85 pounds of equipment, but in the moment before battle is joined, the pack/satchel is thrown to the ground. My preference for a "characterful" miniature is one with all the little bits of equipment. It takes longer to paint such a miniature, which  may explain the movement away from those sorts of miniatures to the ones with just weapons and armour (with a "u"  :o because I was raised and educated in Ireland) that we began to see more of as gaming moved towards the "really big army" format. Maybe. Possibly.

As for Variags - I always thought of them as the LoTR equivalent of Slavic peoples, maybe from the area (in the "real" world) "between" two continents. I never thought of them as Vikings, because for me the Rohirrim always had something of the Viking about them (albeit on horses, rather than in longships). But these,  I guess, are the minor differences readers have regarding how they think certain characters look, and then when they share this "assumption" they are often shocked to learn that not everyone shares it, although in fact in general very few of these ideas about how different characters look are shared by readers. Which is why, of course, film/TV adaptations of well-loved book are usually so contentious.

Orcs, though, of all shapes and sizes with all of the equipment of a campaign strapped to them - that's what I loved in an Orc miniature! A devil to paint, though....
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Offline Paboook

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2016, 08:23:17 PM »
Hobgoblin, thank you for another eye-opening topic. I really enjoy your notes and ideas on "true" Middle-Earth.

Offline Rhoderic

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Re: Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2016, 09:06:12 PM »
Oh yeah, I forgot to say, the original post of this thread is very informative and I really appreciate having the facts. Some of it I've read a number of times before, both on LAF and elsewhere, but this is the most exhaustive treatment of the "Tolkien's orcs" issue I've come across and much of it is new to me. Thanks hobgoblin!


Yeah, I've got to say, I do enjoy the 'classification' of Goblins as little greeblies, Orcs as bigger, tougher dudes, hobgoblins as eastern 'Mongol' type goblinoids and Half-Orcs as general cross-breeds. I even like the idea of the Black Orc as the hulking brute. having said that, they've all got too big for my taste - and not just GW, but all manufacturers have gone the same way.

I like the idea of sticking closer to Tolkein as regards the proportions perhaps, but keeping to a standard use of the names with which I am familiar. My perfect style of Orc is probably the 80's and early 90's fellas, with barrel chests and crooked, sinewy limbs. Goblins should be very small and, as Hob says, Hobbit sized.

The realisation hadn't quite coalesced in my mind until now, but I agree with you - making orcs bigger and bigger does not make them better as a concept. Now that I think about it, my ideal "baseline" orc for a well-crafted fantasy setting (one that strays a reasonable bit from "Tolkien orthodoxy" but leaves the kitchen sink well enough alone) would be somewhat shorter than a man (but perhaps equal in bulk). Going from there, some of the rarer orcs might be a fair bit bigger than baseline, and goblins would be quite smaller to varying degrees.

 

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