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Author Topic: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread  (Read 24919 times)

Offline LordOdo

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 09:40:55 PM »
I'm mostly interested in sologaming as well, so we could focus on that. I'm about to start reading over all the books (because I have just begun to draw all Westeros heraldry canon based, see image) and I could note down all the mentioned distances, if that would help in any way..

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Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2019, 08:58:18 AM »
I can certainly help you with the canon heraldry... as I have conducted a similar exercise in the past for the North, Crownlands, Riverlands, Westerlands, Vale and parts of the Reach.
Martin uses the sigil or emblems/badges of the houses, not the more familiar heraldry we are used to from the middle ages, and is only occasionally more expansive with his descriptions. Martin is good at giving the sigils but not the full heraldry. If you are very lucky the sigil colour will be cited. I have not found any other ref to the House Mormont other than the 'black bear' so I have left the field colour plain white. In Medieval heraldry factions often shared tinctures to show affiliation. This means a black bear on white works well for Northern houses and shows support for House Stark. In the case of Houses known to be closely associated with the Lannisters for which the field colour is not known you might opt for a similar system and adopt yellow/gold or red, or both as a faction marker if you wanted to go slightly off-canon. I discovered similar gaps in our knowledge researching regimental flags when I gamed the English Civil War period which required some educated guesswork in several instances.

Given the impoverished nature of Bear Island I'm planning on giving the House Mormont levy troops round shields like my Norse-inspired Ironborn, and given the longevity and likely cultural isolation of House Mormont a bear sigil inspired by more ancient looking Celto-Norse designs. Only the Captain will have more C13 looking armour like the Northern houses on the mainland and only the immediate household troops will be equipped with appropriate heater shields.

I am experimenting on using the bare bones of the maps published in the books as a basis for my campaign map. There are a few references by GRRM to specific distances e.g. Acorn Hall to High Heart is a day's march apart, while Fairmarket to the Twins is 8 days in heavy rain. On the book map they are 2mm and 16mm apart which works out well. I plan to use that as a benchmark for calculating march distances between the main points. I can use any variation/inconsistency to factor in likely differences in terrain (Acorn Hall to High Heart looks quite hilly, while Fairmarket to the Twins looks pretty soft going on the map). 
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2019, 02:16:44 PM »
Interesting to know the distances you think are involved SB... It’s quite hard to gauge from the books, where most journeys to anywhere seem to take many days or sometimes weeks (unlike the miraculous teleportation increasingly evident in the latter seasons of the HBO series).
But then on foot, or by cart, in a medieval world, in a time of war and banditry, on largely unmade roads, a journey of 100 miles could easily take a week or more.
Most people seem to have Westeros mentally pegged as broadly the size of Western Europe from, say, Norway (Beyond the Wall) down to Andalucia (Dorne). Others have it as essentially the British Isles, which are, let’s remember, including outlying islands, around a thousand miles from top to bottom.
I’ve always thought it somewhere in between.
What do you think? :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 02:20:34 PM by Captain Blood »

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2019, 04:04:57 PM »
I've seen discussions which peg Westeros (based on the wall being 300 miles long) to somewhere in the region of 3,500 miles top to bottom. Martin himself is cited as saying Westeros was comparable in size to S America. Presumably there is a fair amount of uncharted 'arctic waste' at the top end...
Kings Landing to Winterfell comes out at around 1500 miles, and the Wall a further 630 miles from there. Sunspear to the Wall is cited as a little over a 1,000 leagues. I've been looking at the map here which can be zoomed in for a larger format http://quartermaester.info/
By and large it seems to pan out as a fair basis for a campaign map. However Martin's deliberate vagueness for better storytelling results in something akin to a tube map, hence my less accurate 'network' approach. The various book references to travel times do not take into account the terrain. Casterly Rock to Oxcross is cited as 3 days ride, but the actual distance on the map as the Raven flies is not much longer than the purported 1/2 days ride from Acorn Hall to High Heart. King's Landing to Tumbleton is cited on the Wiki as being '50 leagues SW' but measures out at about 90-100 miles on the map if you believe Acorn Hall to High Heart is a 1/2 days ride /full day's march (approx. 10-15 miles). Wargamers using any map we come up with based on Martin's 'data' will be akin to ECW commanders using John Speed's 1610 maps. When you look at those it was a wonder there were any battles at all! Still where would be the fun if we knew for sure where the enemy were!?!

Offline AKULA

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2019, 04:18:57 PM »
Following this discussion with great interest - I need to think about campaign rules as well.

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Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2019, 04:41:36 PM »
I just want a mechanism to assemble my forces and converge on the enemy which gives something of the flavour of the 'period' and the difficulties of manoeuvre. I knew I couldn't be the only one! We've all been too busy before now assembling our armies and playing catch-up with the good Cap'n!

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2019, 01:02:18 PM »
I was looking at this Map at the weekend which seems to have all my campaign needs...
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg
In the absence of anything concrete (and consistent) from Martin to go by, this would be as good as any reference off which to base relative distances and march rates etc.
References that do exist for the King's Road state it is nothing more than a trackway in places. For Valyria read 'Roman', which it ain't! If that is the condition of an 'A' road in the Seven Kingdoms, then apart from the Rose, Gold, River and High roads marked out, anything else is almost certainly not worth plotting and should be considered as 'off road' for movement penalties etc. Cumulative penalties for off road + movement through hilly terrain + weather conditions, would factor in most campaign eventualities.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2019, 09:03:37 AM »
The things you do for your hobby. I have been entering Monty Python territory looking up the speed and endurance of Ravens "African or European?!" I hear you say...
“Doves and pigeons can also be trained to carry messages,” the maester [Aemon] went on, “though the raven is a stronger flyer, larger, bolder, far more clever, better able to defend itself against hawks ….”
In ASOIAF Ravens originally had the ability to communicate messages verbally, but as this ability was lost over time they reverted to being mute message carriers. Their ability to defend themselves against interception and their endurance probably mitigated against their somewhat slower speed compared to ordinary pigeons.
Racing pigeons are able to fly about 1,100 miles, reaching 50mph at moderate distances (500 miles) and nearly 60mph (under 100 miles) A 4yr old racing pigeon apparently covered 582 miles in just under 14 hours (averaging 41mph). In the real world wild ravens have been clocked at 25mph but I am assuming Maester-trained Westerosi Ravens must have been roughly equivalent to pigeons otherwise they would have shifted to using those instead.
I am assuming therefore that Westerosi Ravens can match the lower speed of pigeons @ an average of around 40mph. This would give them an effective range of around 500 miles in 12 hours and 1000 miles in 24 hours.
Looking at the map this places all the main Riverlands houses within a day's Raven of Riverrun. This would give Houses with vassals closer to hand a potential advantage in mustering their forces and those spread further apart more headaches. This would only work if I work in something about the amount of time taken for a message to reach its destination or declare that no units may move without receiving initial orders and cannot deviate from those without receiving subsequent Ravens.
I am looking at introducing a simple campaign mechanism to 'raise the banners' possibly using the DBA PiP system 'Player initiative points' (Roll 1D6) for 'command points' to move units or columns or dispatch a raven. This then raises the question of where I send a Raven when I have Houses with banners represented but 'no forwarding address' mentioned by Martin! This is the case for Paege, Charlton, Erenford and Haigh and a number of other lesser houses. I'm pondering a 'phone tree' system where designated major Houses may then Roll to call in their own vassals and use pre-designated mustering points. The Player would then have to divide his PiPs between ALL the Houses under his command, marshalling resources etc. and deciding which strands of activity to follow.
Interdiction of Ravens then becomes an option for besieging forces as When Robb approached The Twins in Game of Thrones to prevent Walder Frey alerting anyone of his movements. In those situations a besieged player would have to declare expending points on Ravens (but possibly not how many) and the besieging player would have a roll to attempt to intercept if they had missile troops. If they were lucky enough to score multiple hits they could conceivably kill some or all of the Ravens dispatched, thus wasting the enemy's PIPs and hampering their attempts at a relief.
The Player would be represented by a Commander in the field with one or two nominated subordinates. The Player would be the only one pro-actively sending Ravens on the move. News of defeats, victories etc. would be at umpire's discretion or an assumed response to events.

Offline LordOdo

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2019, 11:47:00 AM »
I like the way you think. Furthemore I'd like to see a difference between the household guard (professionals, who stand ready) and levy troops (other men, farmers etc who have to be mobilized and recruited for war). So when one gets the call for war, it is significantly quicker to just summon household guards.

Offline Johnno

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2019, 12:08:36 PM »
Martin uses the sigil or emblems/badges of the houses, not the more familiar heraldry we are used to from the middle ages, and is only occasionally more expansive with his descriptions. Martin is good at giving the sigils but not the full heraldry. If you are very lucky the sigil colour will be cited. I have not found any other ref to the House Mormont other than the 'black bear' so I have left the field colour plain white.

IIRC I have a book at home (possibly Fantasy Flight) which lists the Sigils/heraldry of each house. I'll post the name when I get home.

Not that I would ever try to dissuade someone from reading a book or series of books looking for descriptions but there may be an easier way.
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Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2019, 12:18:57 PM »
I'd like to see a difference between the household guard (professionals, who stand ready) and levy troops (other men, farmers etc who have to be mobilized and recruited for war). So when one gets the call for war, it is significantly quicker to just summon household guards.
I like this idea a lot. I haven't made a physical distinction between household and levy troops in my own units, but I agree a more general fyrd/leidang muster would take a while to put together. The 'phone tree' system would achieve something similar with lesser houses and levies being ordered to RV at pre-determined mustering points once ordered to do so. Given that the households of Lords and lesser houses are most likely to field cavalry, these are likely to be the first responders to any emergency.
I'm assuming the Houses that occupy strategic positions will have resources akin to the Marcher Lords, or those sites could be bolstered by allocations of garrison troops from the overlord. This is why I am most miffed that Martin does not cite the heraldry of House Vance at Wayfarer's Rest, the closest House to the border of Lannister controlled Golden Tooth. I am having to go with non-canon sources (i.e those not specifically taken from the ASOIAF books) in that particular instance. You could also allocate lesser houses who have 'no known address' to bolster the defences of other unoccupied sites such as market towns or even as additional troops in locations on sensitive borders.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2019, 12:44:02 PM »
Not that I would ever try to dissuade someone from reading a book or series of books looking for descriptions but there may be an easier way.
I've already been there and done it, Johnno, but thanks for thinking of me.
I prefer to use the available evidence from the books because the Wiki and other non-canon sources can often be very inaccurate and they jar to those like me and the good Captain who are more familiar with Medieval heraldic charges and devices. In other posts I've highlighted quite glaring errors and embellishments that aren't in the books such as House Charlton has mistletoe sprigs as a sigil but the Wiki shows red instead of white berries; Rosby has chevrons which are the wrong way up (the point downwards) on the Wiki; Manderly should be a simple all white merman; Crakehall is a brindled boar, not a striped one; Glover is a mailed fist, not a plate armoured one, the Ryswells have different coloured horse's heads without any fancy borders... and there are others... the simpler charges work better imho with the use of C13 to C15 proxy figures.

Offline Darathar

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2019, 02:57:48 AM »
I have the world of ice and fire book which is quite in depth and partly written by GrrM if anyone wants info on history, regions or heraldry just let me know and I'll gladly help out. Great art in there too.

Offline Hammers

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2019, 11:51:13 AM »

 on largely unmade roads,


I am not sure about that. According to Ice and Fire, one of the kings, it may have been Aegon II or III laid out roads on a seeminglu roman scale.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2019, 12:48:22 PM »
Certainly all the descriptions of the roads I have read in ASOIAF would make a Roman weep for shame...

 

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