Zombies pictures from Wargames Factory

[AKULA]

Spot on Matakishi!

 

[Unforgiven]

Then I guess I need a head check.

[Braxandur]

The new pictures look way better already, showing already more of what I want:



Actually if I would want to make a zombie horde, I'd indeed would like to have shamblers (the ones with their arms hanging by their side) but also would like to have zombies with outstreched arms (going for brains   )

But specifically if I buy a plastic set of zombies I'd want them to be multipart to have the possibility of giving them the posure I choose for them. I don't want them all to look alike. Even if we're just talking about the zombies on the back of the "mob". As for cutting a plastic mini in half or to remove his arms to convert it... no thanks, multipart is way better imho.

As for lavishing time and greenstuff on the minis, well I'm a disaster with greenstuff, but I do nkow my way around plastic and enjoy spending a midday on putting my minis together in the poses I like most and mixing al kinds of plastic to see what i can come up with. But then again, I don't like making buildings from cork tiles. Maybe I really should let my head get examined cause I'm have my own ideas about what I like. (This is not meant for flaming you Matakishi... well maybe I'm a bit on the harsh side, but your blunt axe approach on people who try to do a good job, made me a bit touchy).

[Modhail]

Howard, nice to see such rapid response from you guys..

The second batch of pictures are a lot better than the first.
They look quite a bit better with the smaller heads. I'm guessing that more parts still need "sculpting", so I'm hoping those will incorporate any feedback/idea's on posing.
I read on your forum that you are considering dropping the female from the sprue. Any chance of a supplementary "zombie-woman" sprue?

(Looking at the generally available zombie and survivor miniatures, it seems women that have some sort of "zombie outbreak instinct": They are rarely amongst the survivors that get out last, and thus feature in most people's games, and even less even get turned into zombiesat all. It almost seems as if all women secretly leave an area just hours before the outbreak... Hmmmm, I smell a conspiracy...  )

Just one more question: on both the Celts and the Zombies, certain features seem to be a bit exageratedly angular and pronounced (some lines on the zombie heads, the edge of the ribcage and abs on the celts, for example).
Am I right in guessing that this is done to compensate for a certain degree of "rounding" of such details when casting in plastic? Because on the celts, those features don't seem quite as extreme in the sample painted models.

[matakishi]

As for lavishing time and greenstuff on the minis, well I'm a disaster with greenstuff, but I do nkow my way around plastic and enjoy spending a midday on putting my minis together in the poses I like most and mixing al kinds of plastic to see what i can come up with. But then again, I don't like making buildings from cork tiles. Maybe I really should let my head get examined cause I'm have my own ideas about what I like. (This is not meant for flaming you Matakishi... well maybe I'm a bit on the harsh side, but your blunt axe approach on people who try to do a good job, made me a bit touchy).

My point was that people seem happy to buy a substandard product so that they can spend their own time, money and resources to make it do what it was supposed to do in the first place. I think that's stupid.
Nobody here is doing a good job and my axe isn't blunt. I've just explained exactly what I think is wrong with these figures. You want them for raw materials for a conversion project, then fine, but that isn't what they're being sold as.

Clawing for brains would be a nice pose too but I'm not sure how that would fit in a mold without separate arms and, given the option, I would opt for no separate arms every time.

[Braxandur]

Aah sorry, I missed out on the fact that you were offering your opinion instead of telling me that I need my head checked 

We'll just see in a few weeks how all of this will turn out to look and either laugh about the result, be happy, or both (possibly divided about multiple people). Anyhow, since we can see the "sculpts" before they start casting we can at least choose to buy or not, as we see fit.

In the meanwhile I will stay enthausiastic about this endeavor.

[Howard Whitehouse]

Modhail, I think we'll set aside the female zombies for now (we'd been discussing the breakdown of the sprue for about a week, because it's not like you can just add an extra thing later on) and go with an all male sprue.

Maybe later we can do women and children (and the dog).

It's possible that, in the same way that men don't know where the aspirin is kept or why the pharmacy is a fascinating place to shop for hours, men don't know when the zombies are coming. My wife might tell me in time, but otherwise I'd be caught with a paintbrush in hand and that'd be it for me and my brains.

As to the exaggerated detail --- well, maybe the plastic moulding has something to do with it. the other is that if you simply sculpt something to look great at, say, 200mm tall and shrink it, there's a tendency for the small detail to simply disappear and the figures to lack character. You just get a very bland figure.

At least, that's my non-technical take on it, but I could be wrong.

[jet]

Plastic means cheap and plentiful right? Not looking to make personality zombies here, plenty of them available in metal for not much more than the cost of these plastics.

I see and agree with most of the points you've presented.  However, I would like to clarify, not all plastic-loving gamers love plastic because it's cheap.  I love plastic because it's easy to work with, to convert, and once painted, can handle infinitely more wear and tear than metal models.  Furthermore, I would suggest that the idea that metal = high quality individual sculpts and plastic = mass produced crap is fairly old-fashioned.  I can think of lots of companies who cast metals that are crap, and companies who cast high-quality, beautiful miniatures in plastic.

As to the weakness in some of the rendered parts (arms for one), I don't think the answer for WF is to lower the expectations of their own products (i.e. settle for single pose "filler" models), but to keep tweaking until they reach a high level of quality.  It isn't unreasonable to think that multi-part plastics can be high-quality AND cheap.  Not to mention, many gamers interested in zombies enjoy the prospect of building and personalizing their horde.  That's one of the appeals of modelling zombies in the first place.

Anyway matakishi, I hope this is not taken as a flame (which it isn't) but as a view from the other side of the fence (which it is).  As a guy who lurks here everyday, I am an appreciator of your work and contributions to this community.

JET

[Hydra]

One of the flaws I see with these digital sculpts is the softness of detail and lack of definition.  I recently got a sample sprue of Wargames Factory Zulu War Brits and the figures seem to lack the crispness of  GW, Perry and Warlord plastic figures, which are hand-sculpted at 3 time the actual size and reduced during the milling of the molds. I think the problem lies in the digital sculpting process itself.

Direct digital sculpting for miniatures is more difficult than you would think.  When you view a 25mm face for a figure on a computer screen, it is blown up approximately 5000-6000% percent of the actual size.  Therefore, a  digital sculptor will probably not exaggerate the folds and details as much as a traditional sculptor using putty.

Master sculptor Sandra Garrity tells a story about a Lucasfilm's decision to use digital scans of actors from Star Wars Episode One for licensed products.  Digital artists used these scans to create master models for pewter figures that were supposed to look more realistic sculpts compared to traditional sculpting. The resulting product were amorphous blobs that bore no little resemblance to the actual actors.  Why?  Because the digital artists simply shrunk the digital scans but didn't bother to exaggerate the raised and lowered surfaces that create the detail needed for painting.  At actual size a figure may look normal to us, but if you scaled it up to human size, it's eyelids would be 3/4" thick.  Therefore, to make something look good at 28mm scale, the artist has to employ a large amount of distortion and exaggeration on the computer screen to create enough depth of detail.

It'd be a great learning experience to do a 3D digital scan of a high quality traditionally sculpted model and magnify it on the computer to  see how much exaggeration traditional scultpors actually employ on successful figures.

[stroblight]

First, I think it's pretty incredible that we are even having this discussion.  Wargames Factory is taking a pretty unique approach to model making.  It's great to even be able to give feedback that might actually effect the way the figures are made.  I'm really enjoying this process and getting pretty excited about what this could mean in the future for other minis.

Second, I had the same general underwhelmed feeling when I saw the first concept renderings.  I agree that the heads were a tad big, the levels of decay were too inconsistent, and that some of the arm angles were pretty odd.  However, it's amazing that such feedback was received so quickly and some better images were posted.  I'm digging the new images (the heads and new full zombie) a lot.  They are definitely on the right track.  More fuel for my excitement about this process.

Finally, I fall on the multi-part side of the fence.  I can understand the appeal of a single shambling model that can quickly find the table, but I personally am looking forward to the easy mixing and matching potential of a multi-part sprue.  Also, I hope this means there will be plenty of extra arms/heads/other bits on each sprue.

Overall, I don't think we can look at these initial renderings through the same lens we look at the newest models on the shelves of our FLGS.  At least for me, this is the first time I've been a part of the concept phase for models.  I've got to be more patient and appreciate the opportunity at hand.

[matakishi]

I would like to clarify, not all plastic-loving gamers love plastic because it's cheap.  I love plastic because it's easy to work with, to convert, and once painted, can handle infinitely more wear and tear than metal models.

Good point.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the idea that metal = high quality individual sculpts and plastic = mass produced crap is fairly old-fashioned.  I can think of lots of companies who cast metals that are crap, and companies who cast high-quality, beautiful miniatures in plastic.

My point exactly, these are crap, the point of mentioning it is so that something can be done about it before $1000s are spent on making molds.

As to the weakness in some of the rendered parts (arms for one), I don't think the answer for WF is to lower the expectations of their own products (i.e. settle for single pose "filler" models), but to keep tweaking until they reach a high level of quality.  It isn't unreasonable to think that multi-part plastics can be high-quality AND cheap.

Again, my main point. I will mention here that their figures are filler models, designed for rank and file and bulk selling. Also, even as single part figures, there will be several poses to a sprue, I didn't say a single pose would be better.

Not to mention, many gamers interested in zombies enjoy the prospect of building and personalizing their horde.  That's one of the appeals of modelling zombies in the first place.

Good point again, but I think you're in the minority as can be evidenced by the threads on forums by people overjoyed that Zombuies (tm) game pieces can be used as 28mm figures (just, if you squint and put your aesthetic filter on hold). Whilst I applaud the enthusiasm and skill of people who produce such work I doubt they're the market Wargames Factory are aiming for. They want bulk sales to recover the cost of the massively expensive molding cost (far more than the set up costs for metal as you know) which is why they make rank and file figures. And more bulk sales to then go on and make money.
If you like converting figures and plastic is easier to work with than metal as you say then buying a single piece plastic zombie instead of a metal one is still a better option for you isn't it?

Anyway matakishi, I hope this is not taken as a flame (which it isn't) but as a view from the other side of the fence (which it is).  As a guy who lurks here everyday, I am an appreciator of your work and contributions to this community.

JET

I don't think it's a flame why would I? You agreed with my main point, plastic doesn't have to equal rubbish. You can say whatever you like and present it here the same as the rest of us.

Once again, these 'figures' are crap because:
They are badly proportioned- no excuse for this
The separate parts don't look like they go together with each other- when does 'interchangable' stop becoming a benefit and become a compromise on quality?

In response to all the feedback received Wargames Factory have released new pictures that are better proportioned and the figure looks like its parts belong together.

Result.

If, on the other hand, everybody sat around looking at the dire first pictures and decided they weren't very nice but they wouldn't say anything because WF were doing them some sort of favour and anyway, a few hours with greenstuff and a knife would sort it all out, then the first crappy pics would have been made and nobody would have been happy. Wargames Factory wouldn't have sold many and then they may well have rethought their idea of doing what their customers asked for and gone back to giving you what they decided you wanted instead.

[Darkoath]

I actually think the second round of photographs have shown much improvement in the figure design.  They now look more realistic and not as cartoonish as the GW plastic zombies.

[Glitzer]

I mst admit I'm positively surprised by the models. I just wonder why they have holes in their eyeballs.

[Pil]

I personally am getting more enthusiastic about this project, in the new pics they do look very useable. I am also in favour of multipart because despite what Matakishi says it's less work to assemble a multi-part model than it is to convert a single-part model (or at least reposition the arms).

As an aside, anyone who thinks it's ok to lavish time and greenstuff on a plastic figure just to make it passable as a wargaming figure, we're not talking about turning it into a character here, just make it fit for its intended purpose, needs their head examining

Why? I don't know about you but I enjoy toying with conversions and putty to alter my models and make them table-top worthy. I do it for metals so why would plastics be any different? Also, you seem to be forgetting that there are people in wargaming that have less money to spend and more time on their hands, to whom the prospect of cheap models that may take a bit more work might actually be a good thing (why else would Revell kits still sell while you can buy the same vehicle as a ready-made die-cast?).

On topic of the models, they look a lot better but I can see there are some parts in there that can't be moulded and I think it might be something for the sculptor to take into account, I don't really want to have to work away a lof ot undercuts or lacking detail. As for the eyes, the holes may make for easier painting but it's probably better to not have the holes in them so you could paint them as 'blind' eyes.

[anevilgiraffe]

but the join for the legs to the torsos looks completely wrong... all the undead made sure they tucked their shirts in before the left the house? and the skeletal one somehow has enough flesh below the waist line to keep his kegs up...

doing the legs/torsos as one unit with variable arms and heads would make more sense (ala the poor Zulu War British - but you don't have the problem of them trying to hold weapons properly)- especially with a female zombie and the skeletal one...