love my 40k models; hate the 40k rules

[postal]

battleground or warzone,somebody a few years back did 40k codexs fo warzone 1st edition me and a buddy played them and it was much bettter it played faster and no rule bog downs.

[Faust23]

I've heard Stragrunt II & Dirtside are good for squad level sci-fi.

[Lindegaard2007]

Hi There!!

I Have a ton of warhammer 40000 miniatures!!
A couple of years ago we started using the rouge trader ruleset again!!
In these rules there are a great point system for generating your own characters and troops!!

Give it a try

[Dr. The Viking]

Hi There!!

I Have a ton of warhammer 40000 miniatures!!
A couple of years ago we started using the rouge trader ruleset again!!
In these rules there are a great point system for generating your own characters and troops!!

Give it a try

Hi I did the same (going back) - but to 2nd edition instead (adding a new turn structure).

How much different is Rogue Trader to 2nd?

[Argonor]

Rogue Trader has 4 different stats for different aspects of Psychology - they were amalgameted into Ld for 2nd Ed.

Rogue Trader is much more a Skirmish Game where you can assemble all kinds of small mixed forces and play story-driven missions instead of I-kill-you-you-kill-me battles.

I have the book somewhere, I tried to make an RPG based on it, once 

[Weird WWII]

It was second edition that started GW down it's dark and poor rules system.  With the addition of all the special war gear and special, special, special rules for every damn thing is when all the Q&As  had to be released because it just got to crazy.  If I still played it would be the great Rouge Trader stuff although it too could get a bit bogged down but I think it was there best rules system for the 40K cannon.

My favorite things in RT were the robots and targeting matrix.  Great stuff!

Brian

[Argonor]

It was second edition that started GW down it's dark and poor rules system. 

Yep, they started out streamlining the system for tournament-play, but with the need to have customers buy new stuff all the time, the 'newest codex trumphs all' got born.

I think the worst thing about it is the practice of re-designing a whole range of miniatures everytime a new codex comes out.

And the ever-changing of force organization.... last Codex Space Marines allowed for squads 5-10 strong; now you can have either 5 or 10, so you HAVE to paint batches of 5 - where was the need for that...??

You cannot take 'ordinary' Marine Sergeants anymore, but have to use Veteran Sergeants.

You now can have only 5 terminators per squad, meaning most marine players have 15 £10 minis they cannot use - not to mention Dark Angels players like me who began to assemble an all-Deathwing force... 

I'll stop rambling.... I'm currently slowly building a sprayed/block-painted Dark Angels force to play som non-competitive games among friends, so i haven't quite given up the universe, but I might at some point if the current direction of the game towards fewer and fewer 'real' options for customizing continues.... 

[Dr. The Viking]

Gee... I guess I'm playing it wrong then - I do as I feel like whether the rules say you can or can't.
The "play it be the rules" game lost me years ago. I don't think 2nd is rubbish - it just needs a bit of adding in the activation department.

And there's definately nothing stopping you from creating scenarios instead of just mano-o-mano.
I don't use the points values either as they're completely out of whack anyhow.
What rules-squabble there might be is solved by a bit of thinking... not lawyering.

But I do understand the frustration that 40k is not a working game straight out of the box... I just don't see why people can't help themselves!


EDIT: Added my signature mistake of missing words!

[postal]

yep I have those rt rules too.love them thats why I love the battleground system.

[Argonor]

Gee... I guess I'm playing it wrong then - I do as I feel like whether the rules say you can or can't.
The "play it be the rules" game lost me years ago. I don't think 2nd is rubbish - it just needs a bit of adding in the activation department.  

But I do the frustration that 40k is not a working game straight out of the box... I just don't see why people can't help themselves!

Oh, of course you can do whatever you like - the problem arises when you play a game with someone with the 'RAW' attitude.

2 out of 3 of the above mentioned points cannot be mended, unless you own a previous edition of the rules, btw. There simply is not a points value given for a single marine anymore (and, yes, the points system isn't very good/balanced, as you can make two forces of equal value where one cannot hurt the other, but most people still use it to (try to) balance their forces out), so it's more or less a question of using the troops as they are listed, as the options do not exist anymore.

As you use 2nd Ed., you have legio options as compared to a newcomer buying the current edition. 2nd Ed. is the version that got most people into the game, I think, and the one most of the 'secondary' 40K games were developed from (Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and the likes...), and it isn't rubbish. It just started the 'spiralling' power race with each new sourcebook/codex topping the last.

Rogue Trader is one book with rules for everything, and you can pretty much build your own stuff and calculate a points value. Does not work well with large battles (2nd Ed doesn't either IMO), as it is too slow-paced.

EDIT:
I'm also using my 40K minis for my own stuff, such as a skirmish game based on/inspired by the LotR Battle Companies, as large battles do not really appeal much to me - I'm much too lazy to paint an army of almost identical miniatures 

[Westfalia Chris]

It was second edition that started GW down it's dark and poor rules system. 

Yep, they started out streamlining the system for tournament-play, but with the need to have customers buy new stuff all the time, the 'newest codex trumphs all' got born.

I think the worst thing about it is the practice of re-designing a whole range of miniatures everytime a new codex comes out.

And the ever-changing of force organization.... last Codex Space Marines allowed for squads 5-10 strong; now you can have either 5 or 10, so you HAVE to paint batches of 5 - where was the need for that...??

You cannot take 'ordinary' Marine Sergeants anymore, but have to use Veteran Sergeants.

You now can have only 5 terminators per squad, meaning most marine players have 15 £10 minis they cannot use - not to mention Dark Angels players like me who began to assemble an all-Deathwing force... 

I'll stop rambling.... I'm currently slowly building a sprayed/block-painted Dark Angels force to play som non-competitive games among friends, so i haven't quite given up the universe, but I might at some point if the current direction of the game towards fewer and fewer 'real' options for customizing continues.... 

I beg to differ... I only played a number of games using the new rules, but unless the German codex differs significantly from the English variant, you still have the option to buy variable numbers of Marines for your squads, for example have Terminator Squads from 5 to 10 models, but may only add a second heavy weapon if you go the whole ten yards... err, Marines. And I think that the construction for the tactical squads is a bit odd, requiring you to buy 10 Marines to get heavy or special weapons at all, but at least it gets rid of the 6 Man Las/Plas squad which was all I ever saw in the last years, particularly at tournaments.

My main problem is the pretty much incompatible old codices. The Tyranid one is particularly broken with the new rules.

[Argonor]

I beg to differ... I only played a number of games using the new rules, but unless the German codex differs significantly from the English variant, you still have the option to buy variable numbers of Marines for your squads, for example have Terminator Squads from 5 to 10 models, but may only add a second heavy weapon if you go the whole ten yards... err, Marines. And I think that the construction for the tactical squads is a bit odd, requiring you to buy 10 Marines to get heavy or special weapons at all...

Well, I haven't got the latest CSM - but I have the latest CDA - and deathwing squads are 1 Sgt + 4 marines, no option for extra models.

Tactical Squads are 1 Vet Sgt. + 4 marines, MAY take a special weapon, option is +5 marines for +75 pts., may then take a heavy weapon.

If they have now made special weapons only available to full 10-man squads, also, it only stresses my point of options being more and more restricted. And mostly in order to force players to buy more models to field some firepower.

at least it gets rid of the 6 Man Las/Plas squad which was all I ever saw in the last years, particularly at tournaments.

I never go to tournaments. Can't stand the attitude of hard-core tournament players. But you're right, of course. Plus, it makes players cough up a bit more to field full squads (what use is tactical marines without special/heavy wepons...?)

[Westfalia Chris]

I beg to differ... I only played a number of games using the new rules, but unless the German codex differs significantly from the English variant, you still have the option to buy variable numbers of Marines for your squads, for example have Terminator Squads from 5 to 10 models, but may only add a second heavy weapon if you go the whole ten yards... err, Marines. And I think that the construction for the tactical squads is a bit odd, requiring you to buy 10 Marines to get heavy or special weapons at all...

Well, I haven't got the latest CSM - but I have the latest CDA - and deathwing squads are 1 Sgt + 4 marines, no option for extra models.

Tactical Squads are 1 Vet Sgt. + 4 marines, MAY take a special weapon, option is +5 marines for +75 pts., may then take a heavy weapon.

If they have now made special weapons only available to full 10-man squads, also, it only stresses my point of options being more and more restricted. And mostly in order to force players to buy more models to field some firepower.

Ah, I get it. But I think the DA Codex is pre-5th edition? I remember the controversy about the whole combat squad thing. Now, you can split the 10-man squads into two 5-man squads, like in second-edition, and it worked rather nice even with my terribly incomplete army. For me, it´s a "blast from the past", because I was firmly rooted in 2ed (having the best of opponents then, not the horrid crowd that is the modern 40k´er. And the great new way to handle blast weapons warms my heart with fissionable intensity.

at least it gets rid of the 6 Man Las/Plas squad which was all I ever saw in the last years, particularly at tournaments.

I never go to tournaments. Can't stand the attitude of hard-core tournament players. But you're right, of course. Plus, it makes players cough up a bit more to field full squads (what use is tactical marines without special/heavy wepons...?)

The reason why I stopped going there. I had some good friends organising excellent tournaments, and I had actually finally got the knack of building colourful, yet competitive lists, and was let down only by my atrocious dice rolling. Then it got more and more "professionalised", and running into confrontation after confrontation with cheating rules kiddies, I lost it with the change to fourth edition.

[Argonor]

But I think the DA Codex is pre-5th edition? I remember the controversy about the whole combat squad thing. Now, you can split the 10-man squads into two 5-man squads, like in second-edition, and it worked rather nice even with my terribly incomplete army. For me, it´s a "blast from the past", because I was firmly rooted in 2ed (having the best of opponents then, not the horrid crowd that is the modern 40k´er. And the great new way to handle blast weapons warms my heart with fissionable intensity.

Yeah, I think the codex came out about 1-1½ year before the 5th Ed. rulebook - but as it is the latest codex for DA, what can I do... 

I'm postponing purchasing the CSM until they make a new codex for the Space Wolves (I am making a small group of SW for my Skimish 40.000 rules), as I have other, more important things use my money on....

I just HOPE they do the next DA along the lines of CSM - the funny thing is, in the CSM from 2004, you still had all the options, but when the CDA came out, options were suddenly limited. And it REALLY makes sense that the chapter with the most Terminator suits can only field 15, whereas other chapters can field 30, huh...?