Any rules for Underdog Bonus?

[Azzabat]

Does anyone have any rules ... or suggestions for, an Underdog Bonus? We're shortly to start out first campaign and I wanted to be prepared for the time when someone rocks up with a level 20 Wizard and I'm ... I mean someone else, is fielding a level 4 one.   

[Ironhead]

Mordheim had underdog rules.  Easily found free on the net nowadays.  Gonna be as close genre-wise as your gonna get.

[Awesome Adam]

I came up with these a long while back

0-9 levels difference, underdog recieves 10 bonus XP per level diference
10-19 levels difference 1 level 1 wandering monsters controlled by the underdog wizard, 1 extra treasure, underdog recieves 10 bonus XP per level diference
20-29 levels difference 2 level 2 wandering monsters controlled by the underdog wizard, 2 extra treasures, underdog recieves 10 bonus XP per level diference
30-39 levels difference 3 level 3 wandering monsters controlled by the underdog wizard, 3 extra treasures, underdog recieves 10 bonus XP per level diference

Wandering monsters start in the center of a random table edge during the monster phase of turn 1.
(1-5 your side, 6-10 left side, 11-15 right side, 16-20 opponents side)
Extra treasures are placed by underdog, after deployment,  but following the standard treasure guidelines for placement.
Underdog must make earnest effort to earn bonus XP. Routing without earning XP will cause underdog to forfeit bonus XP.

Honestly though, after playing more extensively I don't really feel they are needed. The biggest difference in power I found came from the difference in numbers of game played, and not the actual level difference. You can only advance a trait a single time between games, and that seems to be more important in the long run.

For example, let's start with a 20 level difference. If that 20 levels of advancement occured over 4 games, they would have to be spread out over at least 5 traits. So if one focussed on spells, you could lower the casting number of 5 of them by 4. If that same amount of advancement occurred over 10 games, they could reduce the casting number of 2 spells by 10, making even the most difficult of spells reliable.

I had thought of using something similar to City Of Heroes Sidekick system instead, but never got around to play testing it. The system would temporarily bring the weaker player to the approximate power level of the stronger player.

+1 to all spell casting checks, for the duration of the game, for each 10 levels of difference between wizards.

The weaker Wizard uses some sort of temporary sorcery/desperation to boost their spellcasting abilities. The increased success would generate more successful spells, therefore more XP and less backlash.

[Urquhart]

From my little experience in this game, as AA says the difference in power of the sorcerer is not so great. but is noticed in the composition of the band.

The other day I played a game (Genie in the Bottle, random generated) with a new band against another that already had seven games. My sorcerer was obviously level 1 and him, level 10. On the spells issue no noticeable difference, but he had several high-level soldiers (Templar, treasure hunters, Infantrymen, a Marksman) with magic objects and I... just plain thugs, a pair of crossbowmen and thieves.

I tried to run/dodge his soldiers but a good use of Push and Teleport spells put his well equipped men into my lines and made me porridge. Knocked half of the band in few turns (wizard included). Only obtained two of six treasures.

[Azzabat]

I can forsee the sort of thing that happened to Urquhart happening in our campaign. I ran a few Demo games on Sunday and in the second one I failed to get off a single spell, my Apprentice and 2 of my soldiers died (proper dead dead) and I got less than 100 GC, whilst my opponent got loads of money and loads of XP. A one off I know, but it's bound to happen to someone at some point (probably me ... I'm famous for rolling 1's and managed to roll a 1 several times during the game including a run of 3 in a row).

I like the idea of giving a boost to spell casting. As you say this would increase the likelihood of spells being cast and therefore increase experience gained enabling a better chance at catching up. I don't think there is much you can do, or I'd want to do, about the difference in Soldiers as you then run the risk of penalising Warbands for being successful.

I think the other thing I'm gonna do is remove the XP gained for Wizards killing ordinary soldiers as this seems to favour "Shooty" Wizards over "Buff" wizards. Now ... all I need to do is make loads of scenery, Find and paint loads of wandering Monsters, and we're good to go!    

Cheers for all the good feedback folks.

C J   = )

[Timeshadow]

Personally I like the idea of choosing between rerolls or mercenaries


Rerolls the underdog gets one reroll per 5 lvls difference rounded up (e.g.: a 2nd lvl fighting a 21st lvl is 19 lvls difference giving 4 rerolls to the underdog) no die may be rerolled more than once. 

Or

Mercenaries the underdog may have 10gc worth of soldiers temporarily added to his warband for every lvl difference between him and the frontrunner as long as he is at least 5 lvls lower. These mercenaries cannot take your band more than 2 over the normal limit. These mercenaries leave after the battle.

[Azzabat]

Re-rolls are a good idea, I like that. I think I'll go with the +'s to spell casting and the re-rolls as this can change the effectiveness of a Warband during the game ... AND enable it to catch up as well.

I don't want to be in the position where everybody gets pulled up to the highest level just for taking part. That robs the Leader of any sense of achievement. I bit like how every kid in school these days is a winner at everything they do, and end up not being able to cope with, or learn from failure.

Now to find enough models for the Lich Lord campaign.

C J   = )

[Comrade Penguin]

We give the weaker wizard a bonus to the initiative roll based on the difference in level between the two wizards.

For example: A level 3 vs a level 6 would add 3 to his roll for initiative.

We find it gives enough of a boost without being too complex.

[Timeshadow]

We give the weaker wizard a bonus to the initiative roll based on the difference in level between the two wizards.

For example: A level 3 vs a level 6 would add 3 to his roll for initiative.

We find it gives enough of a boost without being too complex.

That's a good idea it allows an advantage without any fuss simple I like it.

[Azzabat]

Great idea @Comrade Penguin, I'm gonna steal that. I still like the idea of a temporary bonus to spell casting though as well, but your idea is nice, clean and simple.

Many Thanks

C J   = )

[Soss]

I was just thinking about this on the way home. What level difference does there need to be to feel like there needs to be an underdog bonus?

I think as you get to the higher levels it doesn't matter much, seems to be real low level warbands versus higher ones, maybe 5-10 levels ahead. I think the biggest difference is two things; Soldiers and Casting levels.

So what if you got 100 gold to buy any Soldier that would fill a slot in your warband, maybe for each 5 levels of difference. What about an option to give them a magic weapon/armour, item or a potion?

I like the idea of helping out your casting. Maybe a free Power Orb for each 5 levels. I also am thinking that maybe giving a instant level bonus for each 5 levels. That way you could add Health, help casting or what ever is needed.

I feel that there needs to be a bonus for that game to make it fair and not just a bonus for after the game.

[almic85]

I posted about this in another thread earlier as I was/am trying to get a campaign going at the local games store, but haven't been able to really try them out.

I think the first thing to decide is if the it is the wizard level difference OR the total warband cost that is going to cause the greatest imbalance in game.

The second thing is do you want to adjust the in game mechanic to make any given game more fair OR adjust the out of game rewards to entice lower level warbands to actually want to play and catch up to the leaders.

If you go with in game buffs you need to decide if you want to then buff/debuff the spell casters OR adjust the warband numbers to help this imbalance.

For in game buffs my general feeling from the games that I have played so far is that I would lean towards giving the lesser warbands a couple of low level thugs/theifs/warhounds to make up for some of the cost disparity of the warbands for that game only. This would need to be limited as an extra person on the board can be a massive advantage.

For out of game buffs the options are still additional XP, additional treasure and/or additional gold after the game. This doesn't really help if your warband just keeps getting wiped out, but would entice people with lower warbands to try and play against some of the better warbands.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=87800.msg1085031#msg1085031

For in game buffs/debuffs I have been thinking of some of the following options.
1/ the underdog player get some additional mercenaries for this game only (probably equal to half of the difference in gold values between warbands. If at the end of the game he can afford them he can pay them the full price to keep them).
2/ The underdog player gets some additional one use only items this game only (probably chosen at random, limited to low level scrolls or potions).
3/ The higher level player has to reduce his warband cost down for this game only and leave some miniatures at home (could be explained with limited access to whatever area is being explored).
I prefer the idea of buffing the lower players more than restricting the well performing players.
I also don't think that the buffs should ever make up for more than half of the effective difference between warbands.

For out of game buffs or debuffs I have been thinking of some of the following options:
A/ the underdog player automatically gets x amounts of additional treasure rolls, where x is related to the difference in warband cost.
B/ the underdog automatically gets xd20 gold coins, where x is related to the difference in warband cost.
C/ introducing some sort of warband maintenance fee for larger warbands (i am thinking of something "simple" like spiralling expenses form bloodbowl, where up to a certain gold coin size there are no ongoing expenses and past a certain point the costs start to increase exponentially) If you are unable to pay the ongoing fee you must sell items to make the GC required or let some members of your warband go.

[Azzabat]

I don't want to alter the game mechanics as these are perfect as they are. What I'm trying to do is project the future of the campaign where one player has done poorly and another exceedingly well. This may never happen but I like to be prepared.

As an example: I'm currently playing in a 10 game Dreadball campaign where after particularly bad dice rolls in my 2nd game, I was effectively knocked out of the campaign. Not enough models left alive to field a legal team, and no money to pay for new players. I have Zero chance of winning not only the campaign, but any of the remaining games as I am at about half the strength of a starting team, but cannot fold and start a new team. I'm still playing as I love the game but it's no fun for me or my opponents when the game is over in 3 rushes out of a normal 14.

I know this is an extremely unlucky occurrence but it does happen and I just want to be prepared for it IF it happens.

I always favour easy, simple options which is why I'm leaning towards the bonus to the Initiative roll, and a bonus to the casting roll. Neither bump up the level of the gang, nor guarantee success in either area, and you're still going to need to play skilfully to pull off a win, so I think I'll try these 2 options and see how they go.

As I say they probably won't be needed, but just in case ...

C J   = )

[jp1885]

You could maybe play the Troll Hunt scenario, or give the underdog player a free turn (it took the more powerful player a bit longer to get to the field because he/she had so many grimoires to lug around!