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Author Topic: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?  (Read 67908 times)

Offline warrenpeace

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #495 on: May 16, 2019, 12:44:16 AM »
My biggest disappointments with the last season so far:

1. The dragon's breath of hot air being converted into a gigantic light sabre that turns wood into matchsticks and cuts through massive stone buildings. I think fire is impressive enough without that.

2. Missandei missing her opportunity to wrap her chains around Cercei's neck and jump off the wall with Cercei out of loyalty to Dany. Oh well. My friend pointed out that Missandei has always been non-violent.

3. Brienne failing to hook up with Tormund. He would have been a better match for her.

4. Tyrion & Arya not having very much intelligent action or dialog. But that's been a problem for about 3 seasons. In the books Arya did some really cunning and creative things in Essos. And Tyrion used to have more fun things to say.

5. Jaime going back to Cercei. Ick!

6. Unbelievably bad tactics in the battles.

7. The apparent resurrection of Dany's armies after the Night King's army had appeared to kill 95% or so of Dany's armies at Winterfel. Should have had no Dothraki left at all, maybe 2 dozen Unsullied, if that, and maybe 2 dozen other northern soldiers. Instead she somehow still has hundreds, if not thousands. Where did all these extra guys come from? Absurd.

8. Gratuitous and pointless scenes of Arya & Brienne losing their virginity. And the point was? Previously in GoT the sex fit into the plot better. This just seemed to be tossed in.

9. Watching mobs of suicidal people flocking INTO Kings Landing, instead of running away from it across the countryside just before Dany's assault. These people were clearly too dumb to live.

I'm still watching anyway. It's epic. It's a great spectacle. Not nearly as sorry to be watching this as I was that I watched all of LOST.
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Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #496 on: May 16, 2019, 12:49:58 AM »
I still reckon in the books, if it comes to Dany invading Westeros with a dothraki horde, she'll suddenly realise what an awful idea it is. Either they will simply refuse to cross the sea, or they will but prove completely ineffective in the siege warfare that taking Westeros would probably require.
When I first saw that scene with the armada of ships ferrying troops, I assumed Dornish sailors, but then I noticed Dothraki and wondered: how much time had lapsed? The Dothraki fear crossing the narrowest part of the Narrow Sea and possibly island hopping via Stepstones, yet here they are manning ships. ??? Essos has more cities than Westeros, but simply pillaging or the threat of hinterlands might be why the Dothraki earned such a reputation for savagery. The stand of Unsullied proved how mounted raiders are ineffective vs infantry in formation, even a thin red line of Lannister spearmen in the Battle of the Goldroad.

I gotta say, just focusing on the military side of GoT, the show really irritates me. All the military have what I call 'stormtrooper syndrome' - they are all depicted as faceless automatons.

This works for the Unsullied of course.

But both the Tyrell troops back in season 6 (I think?) and the Lannister troops who take Riverrun (also season 6?) are portrayed as all wearing identical uniforms, marching in perfect lockstep. It just looks silly I think, and nothing like the more historical vision I had in my head when reading the books. Of course, this is just personal taste. But I would much prefer to see all the armies as being much less disciplined, and varied in their armour and weaponry, with heraldry of individual knights and lords in evidence.
(at least the Tyrell troops had spears and shields - the Lannister troops seemed to be equipped with just swords!)

And then we briefly got the Golden Company... who apparently were another host of stormtroopers / clones. I'd much preferred them as say, heavy cavalry... In the books they are supposed to feature a lot of Westerosi exiles, or descendants of those who fought (and died) for Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellions..... Many of whom have (dubious) claims to lands and estates in Westeros. Well that's probably just among the leadership and officers... But I always imagined them as having a more Westerosi style of fighting rather than the other more exotic / eastern mercenary companies.

Again though this is just personal preference - if the show is intentionally trying to distance itself from medieval Europe aesthetically (and perhaps a more classical vision of warfare).... Then fair enough  :)
I think it might be cheaper to outfit everyone identically and the producers/prop department assuming the viewer being unable to differentiate between Tyrell, Baratheon and Lannister soldiers, though this was ignored in the Battle of the Bastards, lol aside from the Bolton pikemen and pavisiers. 

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #497 on: May 16, 2019, 03:00:21 AM »
Yes! Older films seemed to be a lot better at depicting individual heraldry (a notable failure of Braveheart)
I don't seem to hate Braveheart now as I did years ago...

It did what it set out to do: depict an heroic William Wallace probably loosely derived from a work of fiction. The real WW grew up in a "gated community", went to a private school and was probably betrayed while visiting his mistress and Isabella of France was nine years' old and would give birth years later, long after the former's execution! At least the battles didn't involve soulless CGI soldiers, even though the Scots look like they just came out of a mosh pit!

First Knight had one side in blue, but it wasn't a good movie, though the night battle was better than in GoT.

True - but am I not right in thinking that both books and show put a lot of emphasis on their charge and arakhs? It's been a long while since I read the books, though.
Until the Battle of the Goldroad, I would've said the Dothraki in the TV show aren't the same as in the books, but I suppose it doesn't matter anymore, as the series is about to end. Ser Jorah mentions that their bows have longer range than Westorosi ones - probably composite - and they're better riders, but I don't recall the latter in the show - was there ever a cavalry battle?

1) How did the Dothraki gain a reputation as city sackers, when they know nothing of siege warfare? Maybe attacking the gates or gaining entry via subterfuge, but how many times would this work? Like the Mongols, maybe they used specialists from subject territories?

2) In the show, during Ser Jorah's duel with Qotho, the latter couldn't penetrate the former's armor with his arakh, though later the Dothraki have no issue slaying armored Lannister soldiers. Maybe it's safety related: in Sharpe's Waterloo, French cuirassiers were killed after getting their breastplates smacked with swords. lol 

They're touted as "the best infantry in the world", no?
Depends on what's meant by "best" and how much of this has to do with the sales pitch...

There's a lot of specious reasoning on that thread, and a huge underestimation of the role of strength. It's strength that makes fighters quick and agile; I agree with the poster there who said that DEX and STR aren't as separate as RPGs would have us believe.

Eunuchs lose muscle mass rapidly, even when castrated as adults. They also have frail bones and tend to suffer from scoliosis and osteoporosis eventually. But the Unsullied are castrated when very young - so they wouldn't develop adult mass and strength in the first place. They'd be essentially overgrown children.

The books handwave this with "training". But eunuchs wouldn't respond nearly so well to training as normal men, and they'd be more vulnerable to overtraining and exhaustion. So they'd be starting from a position of severe weakness and then "running to stand still" in avoiding muscle loss, fat gain and gynaecomastia.

So, basically, your uncastrated conscripts who do a bit of training would be getting stronger (and would be heavier, stronger and more aggressive to start with) while your Unsullied would be trying to stave off muscle loss, flab and injuries.

To make matters worse, the Unsullied fight in a phalanx-type formation. Imagine a giant rugby scrum with normal forwards on one side and a bunch of flabby kids who've never undergone puberty on the other ... ouch!
Strength without skill is useless and based on their training enforcing discipline, Unsullied group tactics make up for their lack of strength and only 1/3 of the boys survive to adulthood. Also, they imbibe the wine of courage, numbing their pain senses and maybe testosterone is one of the secret ingredients. Adrenal glands produce small amounts of testosterone and there are female soldiers on the frontlines. Phalanxes aren't rugby scrums: othismos debate.

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #498 on: May 16, 2019, 06:01:56 AM »
My problem with Daenerys' character development is not that she is brutal, but the reasons after her cruelty. In previous seasons, and in the books, there is a travel: she goes from being naïve and full of good intentions, to realize that the exercise of power requires to take unsavory compromises, to be feared and to act like those you despised. Her actions were reasonable, according the themes in the story -power is not for innocents-. However, in the last few episodes she has been transformed from a ruthless politician -cast in the mold of Elizabeth I, including her barrenness- into a bloodlust, mad woman. Her father took 30 years in showing his madness; she has taken less than a few weeks. That, in my book, is lazy, dissapointing writing. It's not a bleak ending what irks me -I love Breaking Bad, and its ending is not particularly uplifting-, but the inconsistencies in character development.

Offline thebinmann

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #499 on: May 16, 2019, 06:13:35 AM »
Her change was dramatic, but then again I wasn't convinced by Anakin in SW either.

It is still by far the best mainstream telly around at the moment.

Offline Hammers

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #500 on: May 16, 2019, 06:26:58 AM »

But what GoT can do is sustained mood. I thought the echoes of the likes of the sack of Magdeburg, not to mention Dresden and Hiroshima, were chillingly well done. It looks like there'll be more of that next week.


Exaktly! GRR Martin again and again says borrows and steals from history, he even says it is his process. of course  the scriptwriters have done the same. I very much think the carpet bombing of Kings Landing is supposed toevoke memories of vengeful bomb raids and artillery barrages as those of the British at Dresden, the German Blitz and the Soviets at the end of WWII (just to name a few).

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #501 on: May 16, 2019, 06:31:15 AM »
Her change was dramatic, but then again I wasn't convinced by Anakin in SW either.

It is still by far the best mainstream telly around at the moment.

Indeed. It takes a truly great writer to pull the stunt of transforming the Heroe into the Villain without looking a forced change. Neither GoT (the show) nor Star Wars have been able to manage that evolution smoothly. 

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #502 on: May 16, 2019, 07:16:02 AM »
Exaktly! GRR Martin again and again says borrows and steals from history, he even says it is his process. of course  the scriptwriters have done the same. I very much think the carpet bombing of Kings Landing is supposed toevoke memories of vengeful bomb raids and artillery barrages as those of the British at Dresden, the German Blitz and the Soviets at the end of WWII (just to name a few).

But that's the problem: it doesn't work as such. Dresden, Hiroshima, Tokyo, Berlin, Coventry... all of the were ruthless political/strategic decissions. They weren't product of a childish tantrum, but planned actions of strategic terrorism. They were used to communicate an idea: you are powerless against us and either unconditionally surrender and submit yourself to our mercy or you will be wiped out. Even when the war ended, violence by the victors was focused, planned, not indiscriminated. In GoT is the action of a character that fits into the "scorned, mad woman" literary trope. That's what makes it so out of character. Daenerys has proved before that she can be ruthless, but always rationally, politicaly cruel... but now, out of the blue, she becomes a ravaging harpy, bent on destruction, for no other reason that "she is mad".

If the writers wanted to evoke Dresden or Tokyo, they should have shown the whole scene as a deliberate action taken by the "good guys" after rationalising the need to destroy innocent civilians in order to topple a murderous regime, not as a temper tantrum. Means justify ends is more compelling as plot device than "look! I am mad!".

Offline Hammers

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #503 on: May 16, 2019, 07:26:29 AM »
But that's the problem: it doesn't work as such. Dresden, Hiroshima, Tokyo, Berlin, Coventry... all of the were ruthless political/strategic decissions. They weren't product of a childish tantrum, but planned actions of strategic terrorism. They were used to communicate an idea: you are powerless against us and either unconditionally surrender and submit yourself to our mercy or you will be wiped out. Even when the war ended, violence by the victors was focused, planned, not indiscriminated. In GoT is the action of a character that fits into the "scorned, mad woman" literary trope. That's what makes it so out of character. Daenerys has proved before that she can be ruthless, but always rationally, politicaly cruel... but now, out of the blue, she becomes a ravaging harpy, bent on destruction, for no other reason that "she is mad".

If the writers wanted to evoke Dresden or Tokyo, they should have shown the whole scene as a deliberate action taken by the "good guys" after rationalising the need to destroy innocent civilians in order to topple a murderous regime, not as a temper tantrum. Means justify ends is more compelling as plot device than "look! I am mad!".

I dont't agree. She clearly says that if she can't be loved whe will be feared and she uses that to justify her ignoring the bells, to really drive her supremacy home. To me, that works.

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #504 on: May 16, 2019, 07:35:54 AM »
I dont't agree. She clearly says that if she can't be loved whe will be feared and she uses that to justify her ignoring the bells, to really drive her supremacy home. To me, that works.

That's not how the scene is built. It is clear that it is a spur of the moment decision, not meditated. It isn't planned. She behaves like a disorganized psychopath. She is the Manson family, not Hannibal Lecter.

There is nothing political in her actions.

Offline Silent Invader

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #505 on: May 16, 2019, 07:54:44 AM »
In the video that Hammers linked above, the production team make it clear that they were influenced by the haunting images of the destruction of Dresden, the strategy behind Dresden not getting a mention .
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Offline AKULA

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #506 on: May 16, 2019, 08:03:02 AM »
She clearly says that if she can't be loved whe will be feared and she uses that to justify her ignoring the bells, to really drive her supremacy home. To me, that works.

That's not how the scene is built. It is clear that it is a spur of the moment decision, not meditated. It isn't planned. She behaves like a disorganized psychopath. She is the Manson family, not Hannibal Lecter.

There is nothing political in her actions.

In a sense I think you are both right...as Hammers said the scene with Jon is meant to be a turning point when she gives up on the notion of being loved in Westeros and will settle for being feared, but the actual scale of the firestorm that followed is more the act of someone that has become unhinged....she could have become feared by just burning the Red Keep.

In terms of the rapid descent into “madness” it’s probably worth considering recent events...the deaths of Jorah, Missandei and Rhaegal were all very personal, but I’d suggest the first of these was the most significant because Daenerys was also involved in hand to hand combat with the dead...until then she had been relatively “sheltered” with others doing the killing for her....even a trained soldier could well have PTSD in such a scenario so it’s hardly surprising if this triggered some underlying psychosis.

Offline Mad Doc Morris

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #507 on: May 16, 2019, 09:27:28 AM »
Just a thought, but I've seen a lot of "clues" within the series turned into red herrings or getting nowhere altogether. Hence the setup of the burning of King's Landing was the Dragon Queen feeling robbed of her victory by Jon and his troops on the ground. Unfortunately it wasn't continued as such – e.g. by a more significant lack of Targaryen troops, Lannister soldiers readily surrendering to Jon, and citizens welcoming him as their saviour from Daenerys' wrath, all contributing to the queen's perception of betrayal.
Perhaps this whole subplot was one of the "bare bones" provided by GRRM, which the writers were supposed to flesh out themselves. It's such a pity D&D have proven their inabilities at character-driven storytelling over the last couple of seasons. :?

Another case in point: For a very short moment I expected Varys to reveal yet another heir to the Iron Throne in his letter. (Based on the books my guess would've been Tyrion as bastard of Aerys II, so he comes out as the legitimate ruler of the South while his 'wife' and last remaining intellectual equal Sansa would declare Northern independence…) But I'm now rather frustrated by the series and don't expect anything meaningful from it. Here's hope GRRM will continue at some point (or nominate a 'successor') to wrap up the story in a more orderly fashion.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #508 on: May 16, 2019, 12:38:55 PM »
Just a thought, but I've seen a lot of "clues" within the series turned into red herrings or getting nowhere altogether. Hence the setup of the burning of King's Landing was the Dragon Queen feeling robbed of her victory by Jon and his troops on the ground. Unfortunately it wasn't continued as such – e.g. by a more significant lack of Targaryen troops, Lannister soldiers readily surrendering to Jon, and citizens welcoming him as their saviour from Daenerys' wrath, all contributing to the queen's perception of betrayal.
Perhaps this whole subplot was one of the "bare bones" provided by GRRM, which the writers were supposed to flesh out themselves. It's such a pity D&D have proven their inabilities at character-driven storytelling over the last couple of seasons. :?
This make perfect sense and explains why Daenarys ennobled Gendry and why she saved Mirri Maz Duur. She was expecting another Mereen, the scene itself being a copy of El Cid at Valencia, and when she didn't get the expected reaction, everyone and everything was committed to the flames. A bit more effort with the camera and better facial expressions from Clarke, that silent scene could've shown this, but it failed on several levels. The whole comparison with Dresden and WWII fire bombings is pretentious prattling - wonder how D&D will handle their Star Wars and ACW series. :-I 
 
Another case in point: For a very short moment I expected Varys to reveal yet another heir to the Iron Throne in his letter. (Based on the books my guess would've been Tyrion as bastard of Aerys II, so he comes out as the legitimate ruler of the South while his 'wife' and last remaining intellectual equal Sansa would declare Northern independence…) But I'm now rather frustrated by the series and don't expect anything meaningful from it. Here's hope GRRM will continue at some point (or nominate a 'successor') to wrap up the story in a more orderly fashion.
I never expected this theory to pan out...

Offline Hammers

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #509 on: May 16, 2019, 02:45:52 PM »
Here's hope GRRM will continue at some point (or nominate a 'successor') to wrap up the story in a more orderly fashion.

Expecting an orderly wrap up is a bit much to hope for. In all the things I have read by Martin there has never been a happy ending. There's just an  ending.

 

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