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Author Topic: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?  (Read 67920 times)

Offline Condottiere

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Online Hobgoblin

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #526 on: May 19, 2019, 10:09:46 AM »
I'm with Akula. I actually think people are looking at this in too much isolation and with too much simplicity.

She threatened to do this in the last episode. We'd already had a discussion about it with other characters. Tyrion feared it but didn't want to believe she was capable of it, at the very least he understood that she was close to snapping point hence his threats and desperation in the attempted negotiations. Jon was more or less the same. Varys believed she could, and indeed, would do it and warned Tyrion of such and suggested Jon as being more level headed.

I also think it ignores something else going on. Another play for the throne. Daenerys wants to be wanted by the people as much as Jon is. She hasn't the time, the ability or the charisma to win them over the way he has done. So she can't be more popular than Jon. What better, then, to make Jon less popular? To burn the city he is in theory leading the attack against. Drag his name down rather than bring hers up. He was part of the slaughter of Kings Landing. Jon the fair did nothing to protect the innocents. Will they be so ready to back him now he has the same blood on his hands, of those innocents?

I tend to agree with this. It struck me as I watched the episode that Jon Snow's reputation is now pretty heavily besmirched, despite his efforts to avert the sack of the city. And perhaps his well-meaning ineffectuality is actually a design feature rather than a bug (as with the awful, dithering film-Aragorn).

The burning of King's Landing and Daenerys's potential for cruelty, vengeance and destruction have both been heavily hinted at from early in the series. After all, she's been threatening to burn cities to the ground almost since she got the dragons. And the notion that (pseudo-)medieval conquerors might turn victory into atrocity is hardly a surprising one. There are certainly plenty of real-life examples that hardly needed dragons to make things worse.

I thought season 7 was pretty bad, but I've been pleasantly surprised with season 8. And, more than anything else, I like the fact that the series is turning out to be a tragedy, not a typical against-the-odds heroic narrative. I hope that's borne out tomorrow.

Another point on the battles: I don't think cinematic/TV medieval warfare has got any better since Eisenstein, and it's certainly got worse since Kurosawa (who was great at convincing you that what you were seeing was part of a much bigger whole). But I do think GoT has done some fairly good things in portraying a sort of medieval warfare. I didn't particularly like the Battle of the Bastards, but I thought the sack of King's Landing (leaving the dragon aside) was more convincing, horrifying and 'realistic' than most attempts to portray medieval warfare.

I certainly think that GoT's best battles (Blackwater Bay, Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards, the Long Night, the sack of King's Landing) have been much better than their equivalents in the Lord of the Rings films. Compare Hardhome with Amon Hen, for example: one is visceral, tense and horrifying, and the other has giant uruks toppled with pebbles or knocked over like ninepins by the heroes.

And I'd take Hardhome over the Moria sequence any day (the latter's great until the door bursts open, and then it all degenerates into CGI siliness).

So, while GoT's battle scenes have their problems, the competition's hardly stellar. At the very least, the GoT battles have the advantage of being tense and gripping all the way through: no one surfs on a shield or tosses a dwarf!

Strength without skill is useless and based on their training enforcing discipline, Unsullied group tactics make up for their lack of strength and only 1/3 of the boys survive to adulthood.

I'd disagree with your point on strength a bit. Strength is a major component in most martial skills. It doesn't mean that the strongest fighter's always going to win - far from it. But in a lot of fighting situations, strength can go a long way to compensate for a lack of skill. You can see that in the historical selection of big men for guard and assault units (size is a good proxy for strength on average).

And the Unsullied - as prepubertal castrates - would be a lot weaker to begin with, and a lot less responsive to training.

Skeletons of medieval warriors typically show that they were extremely physically robust. The archaeologist who excavated the Repton viking burials once told me that the bones had the same sort of muscle-supporting growths as you'd see on the skeletons of modern powerlifters. Knightly skeletons also show significant muscular development, and you can tell a longbowman by the skeletal impact of the muscular development required from the job. But the Unsullied, with overlong, gracile skeletons, wouldn't be equipped to develop in these ways.

Quote
Also, they imbibe the wine of courage, numbing their pain senses and maybe testosterone is one of the secret ingredients. Adrenal glands produce small amounts of testosterone and there are female soldiers on the frontlines. Phalanxes aren't rugby scrums: othismos debate.

Well, maybe - except that the concept isn't anywhere in the text. So it's a it of a reach. There are female soldiers on frontlines today, but there weren't consistently in the ancient and medieval worlds; gunpowder is a great leveller. Also, I think I'm right in saying that a typical woman would produce more testosterone than a typical prepubertal castrate; both have adrenal glands, but women also get testosterone from their ovaries.

You're right that phalanxes aren't scrums, but I think it's fairly clear from the sources that they must on occasion have been somewhat scrum-like (when both sets of combatatants were sufficiently committed and brave). Could we agree that being a hoplite was a physically demanding job, and that ample testosterone would help with adaptation to it?

Most importantly, the Unsullied should have high-pitched voices. I'm trying to imagine Grey Worm as he should have sounded. I think his actor has done a good job, especially this season, but he'd have to be a tremendous thesp to pull off the character with the correct unbroken voice! ;D

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #527 on: May 19, 2019, 10:15:39 AM »
Game Of Thrones Season 8 Is A Disappointment - Here's How We'd Fix It...

That article makes some very good points about time. The central thesis - that this season should have lead up to the Long Night and the next to King's Landing - is hard to argue with.

With the benefit of hindsight, last season could have been a slow build-up to the Long Night (perhaps with the Jon-Daenerys alliance as "the cavalry" and with the whole wight-capturing caper ditched) and this one could have concentrated on setting the scene for The Bells.

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #528 on: May 19, 2019, 11:56:03 AM »
I think I'm right in saying that a typical woman would produce more testosterone than a typical prepubertal castrate; both have adrenal glands, but women also get testosterone from their ovaries.

Sentences I never thought I would read on a wargaming forum...

;)

Offline Charlie_

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #529 on: May 19, 2019, 04:49:44 PM »
What did you all think of 'Cleganebowl'?

It seems after killing him off, they brought back The Hound a few seasons later as he was a popular character, and everyone wanted to see him fight his brother. Ok, fair enough, can't complain too much.

What I thought was weak writing was how in season 6 he pretty much just decided to go south and kill his brother for no apparent reason other than fan service. But I'm not gonna make a point of complaining about it.


BUT..... I actually heard a fantastic reason it could have been slightly rewritten so it made much more sense!

You see, the Clegane brothers had a sister.... and it is heavily implied that the Mountain was responsible for her death when they were younger.

So in Episode 4, when Sandor and Sansa were having their chat at the feast, it could have slightly been rewritten, she could have asked him something like "why are you so hateful, what happened to you?". And he could have broken down and told her the (very brief) story about the sister, and why he hates his brother so much. Something he would never discuss with anyone else, but as we have seen he has had a bit of a soft spot for both the Stark girls.... And then he could realise or explain it's because they (or perhaps just Sansa) remind him of his dead sister. And that's when he decides "fuck it, I'm gonna go kill Gregor".

Wouldn't that have been better?

Offline warrenpeace

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #530 on: May 19, 2019, 04:52:48 PM »
Ready to talk about spin offs yet? Or do we need to wait until this last episode airs tonight? I ask because ATT-Warner-HBO has announced an intention to produce spin offs. Maybe that entity will look at our suggestions. Here's mine:

1. Bankers on Essos dealing with and using the economic crises caused by Cersei's default on the Lannister loans to advance the positions of their rival banking empires.

2. A group of epidemiologists led by Samwell Tarley based in Old Town trying to solve the problems of contagious diseases in the world of GoT.

3. A medieval Indiana Jones/Tomb Raider/Librarian/Warehouse 13 team investigating dangerous magical objects and trying to keep them out of the hands of evil characters such as Daenerys. The first season could deal with a rumor of the existence of more dragon eggs.
Sailors have more fun!

Online Hobgoblin

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #531 on: May 19, 2019, 05:19:12 PM »
What did you all think of 'Cleganebowl'?

It seems after killing him off, they brought back The Hound a few seasons later as he was a popular character, and everyone wanted to see him fight his brother. Ok, fair enough, can't complain too much.

What I thought was weak writing was how in season 6 he pretty much just decided to go south and kill his brother for no apparent reason other than fan service. But I'm not gonna make a point of complaining about it.

Yes, I agree with everything you say here. And your proposed alternative sounds a lot better.

In general, I think that "fan service" is an awful business. That's why I dislike the concepts of test screening and giving the audience what they want. They should get what they're given!

It's easy to think of great films - from Seven Samurai to [/i]No Country for Old Men[/i] - that would have been thoroughly ruined if audiences had been allowed to influence the director into keeping protagonists alive or otherwise undermining the bitter endings that they have.


Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #532 on: May 19, 2019, 06:02:09 PM »
Clegane's brother is responsible for his burn, right? I always assumed that was motive enough to kill him.

The fight was good - I liked how they didn't spell out what Ser Gregor had become, but it became increasingly clear he couldn't feel pain or really be wounded. "Why don't you die?"

Offline Charlie_

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #533 on: May 19, 2019, 11:25:04 PM »
Clegane's brother is responsible for his burn, right? I always assumed that was motive enough to kill him.

Yeah, but why does Sandor wait all his adult life before deciding to go kill him?

Perhaps beforehand he had a comfortable job (Prince Joffrey's bodyguard) and murdering his brother (one of Tywin Lannister's bannermen) would probably not be good for his career prospects.... but if killing him was all he cared about he had plenty of opportunity to have a go once the War of Five Kings breaks out. After fleeing the Battle of the Blackwater (book / season 2) he basically becomes an outlaw / wanted criminal, and indeed spends time with a bunch of outlaws who also want to kill Gregor (though admittedly they apparently want Sandor dead too). That whole period of war and chaos in the Riverlands would have been the perfect opportunity to go and kill him without any worry about repercussions. In the book, he is injured in a fight with Gregor's men - they actually want to take him back to Harrenhal with them, which Gregor is currently occupying. Great opportunity if revenge is all he cares about. Instead he kills them and continues on his way to return Arya to her relatives (so he cares more about money than revenge). In the book his wound becomes infected and he is left for dead by Arya, in the show he runs into Brienne who defeats him and he is left for dead again. But in both the book and show he apparently is found and saved by a religious character, and turns to a life of peace (in the book it's more of an easter egg the reader might miss, whereas in the show the character actually returns to the screen). Here's where they differ noticeably - in the book we do not hear from him again, in the show he for some reason decides to go North to fight against the White Walkers? Then when that is all done and neatly tired up, he thinks "hey, guess I'll go back south again and kill my brother now...."
Why? Because the show thought it would be cool, and there's only a few episodes left!
Not that I'm saying it's necessarily a bad idea.... just that it could easily have been made a bit more interesting by explaining more of his back story, through his interaction with Sansa. Sure, the whole sister backstory has never been mentioned in the show, and is barely mentioned in the books... But that's not a problem, it could have been introduced for the first time during his conversation with Sansa and would have made perfect sense, and added a very interesting new dimension to his character. And could have been interesting for Sansa, if after hearing the story she said something to encourage him to do it, showing her new ruthless side.....

Offline lethallee61

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #534 on: May 20, 2019, 03:03:11 AM »
Regardless of the critical analysis that will obviously follow for many weeks to come, I personally thought the final episode was absolutely brilliant.

Thanks for 8 seasons of quality television. I’m just so grateful we’ve come so far from the only available fantasy television being “Xena: Warrior Princess”.

Now........what’s next?
Enjoying the game is ALWAYS more important than winning the game.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #535 on: May 20, 2019, 04:03:31 AM »
Lazy fan-fiction of an ending after eight years...

Can't wait for the reboot!

Offline warrenpeace

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #536 on: May 20, 2019, 04:58:02 AM »
What a relief that it's finally over!  :D Didn't have to make total sense, just had to end.

Glad there were a few moments of levity. Was getting to be too much cello...

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #537 on: May 20, 2019, 05:40:34 AM »
Watched the last chapter, and... meh. Besides who is king (the reason why is so absurd that it is laughable, but what do I know?) nothing too surprising. The whole chapter is a plothole within another plothole. Well, it has been a dissapointment... which is not unexpected, given how rushed and unsatisfactory have been the last two seasons.

Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #538 on: May 20, 2019, 06:57:32 AM »
Yeah, but why does Sandor wait all his adult life before deciding to go kill him?
I agree that is odd, but the sister backstory would just make this even more puzzling, as he has even more reason to do it sooner.

I think he tried to find meaning elsewhere but couldn't, just too damaged an individual. Also I think he chose his moment because he knew the Lannisters were done. Sandor's always had a cowardly side - he's not going to take the Mountain on unless the power balance changes? I dunno, that is just how I made sense of it.

Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #539 on: May 20, 2019, 07:02:12 AM »
Apologies for double post, but this one has:

SPOILERS!! SPOILERS!!  SPOILERS!!





Last episode was meh. Too much Lord of the Rings-ish standing around looking destiny-driven while saying bite-sized bits of dialogue rather than actually conversing. Best bit was Drogon. Didn't see King Bran coming.

The last couple of seasons have certainly had their faults, but as someone who found the aimless plots and turgid prose (same descriptions used over and over) of the last few books unbearable, it was nice to get an ending!

 

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