*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 12:08:18 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1686596
  • Total Topics: 118110
  • Online Today: 572
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?  (Read 67918 times)

Offline Captain Blood

  • Global Moderator
  • Elder God
  • Posts: 19308
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #615 on: May 22, 2019, 07:58:49 PM »

I thought Jon being sent back to the Night's Watch, even if it maybe made no sense, was a very nice bittersweet ending for his character, and quite emotional actually.


I agree. It was very moving. I thought it made sense. Apart perhaps from Grey Worm, everyone else involved knows that The Night's Watch no longer has a role or purpose. So actually sending John to Castle Black is an act of mercy. They are setting him free to live out his life amongst the Free Folk north of the wall - the great burdens of responsibility and duty he has been forced against his wishes to carry for all his adult life, finally lifted from his shoulders. It's not his punishment - it's his reward.
Well, that's my take on it anyway  :)


Offline Belligerentparrot

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 480
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #616 on: May 22, 2019, 08:09:19 PM »
Just remember I coined Bran the Schemer TM ... and I’ve got a deal going with the new Lord of Highgarden to share the marketing rights.

 ;)

(Puts on gruff Onion Knight voice) So you're Lord of Coining Fancy Titles now too, are you?  :D

Offline warrenpeace

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1497
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #617 on: May 22, 2019, 08:10:05 PM »
...The books as well as the TV series have gone to great lengths tearing down their audience's expectations. As much as I – grumpily – loved the scenes of Brienne honouring Jaime's deeds or Tyrion conferring with his fellows – it was all about each and everyone back on the old tracks. Which have led whereto exactly? Westeros and a good part of Essos plunged into bloody wars, social crisis, and general turmoil. For some reason I'm not convinced the solution to all the desaster and upheaval caused lies in "Let's just switch to a 'presidential system', uhm, 'elective monarchy', because it'll be fine…"  ::)
I actually felt belittled by the writers who thought it fit to brush aside Sam's proposal of a different solution, no matter how improbable it was - and thereby ridiculed fans who'd hoped for a more apt and witty conclusion to a series of world-shattering events...

Three parts of the books deal with the theme of a desire on the part of "common" folk for freedom from aristocratic oppression, and how that desire is repeatedly thwarted.

1. The Freefolk from north of the wall despise "kneelers" but want to get south of the wall to avoid death. Unfortunately, they trust the arch-kneeler Jon Snow to help them, and his betrayal leads to the near extinction of the Freefolk, and (in the book) the killing of Ygritte (who is a virtual personification of freedom) by Jon Snow.

3. In the books the Sparrows aren't simply a bunch of religious nutters, as they are depicted in the tv series. Instead they are poor people reacting to the destruction brought upon them in the wars between aristocrats. They want to fight back against being mere victims. Religion offers them an alternative organization of society. But they are crushed and annihilated by the much more cunning and vicious Cersei, who restores the old order in spectacular fashion.

3. Daenerys liberates the slave cities, intending a more equitable society there. But her dream, and that of the slaves, is thwarted by the resurgence of inequity and aristocracy. Daenerys seems to want to establish a more equitable Westeros. However, her dream collapses when she goes off her rocker and is betrayed and murdered by Jon Snow.

I think what Martin is trying to tell us is that there is no hope for a more fair and equitable world. So just do the best you can for yourself and your family. I think Benioff & Weis were giving a nod to this message and trolling for a cynical laugh with Sam Tarley's proposal of a democratically elected king and the reaction of the aristocratic oligarchs. I say cynical because they know we live in a modern world that at least gives lip service to ideals of democracy and a more equitable society, and yet here we are wrapping up 8 seasons of a hugely popular series appealing to people's nostalgia for an even more oppressive and inequitable world of slavery and serfdom. I think the writers saw the irony in that, and so do I.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 08:19:16 PM by warrenpeace »
Sailors have more fun!

Offline AKULA

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Galactic Brain
  • *
  • Posts: 6233
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #618 on: May 22, 2019, 08:30:14 PM »
(Puts on gruff Onion Knight voice) So you're Lord of Coining Fancy Titles now too, are you?  :D

 lol

That sounded exactly like Davos

Offline mcfonz

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1602
    • Poison Spurs - blog and reviews
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #619 on: May 22, 2019, 10:43:57 PM »
Three parts of the books deal with the theme of a desire on the part of "common" folk for freedom from aristocratic oppression, and how that desire is repeatedly thwarted.

1. The Freefolk from north of the wall despise "kneelers" but want to get south of the wall to avoid death. Unfortunately, they trust the arch-kneeler Jon Snow to help them, and his betrayal leads to the near extinction of the Freefolk, and (in the book) the killing of Ygritte (who is a virtual personification of freedom) by Jon Snow.

3. In the books the Sparrows aren't simply a bunch of religious nutters, as they are depicted in the tv series. Instead they are poor people reacting to the destruction brought upon them in the wars between aristocrats. They want to fight back against being mere victims. Religion offers them an alternative organization of society. But they are crushed and annihilated by the much more cunning and vicious Cersei, who restores the old order in spectacular fashion.

3. Daenerys liberates the slave cities, intending a more equitable society there. But her dream, and that of the slaves, is thwarted by the resurgence of inequity and aristocracy. Daenerys seems to want to establish a more equitable Westeros. However, her dream collapses when she goes off her rocker and is betrayed and murdered by Jon Snow.

I think what Martin is trying to tell us is that there is no hope for a more fair and equitable world. So just do the best you can for yourself and your family. I think Benioff & Weis were giving a nod to this message and trolling for a cynical laugh with Sam Tarley's proposal of a democratically elected king and the reaction of the aristocratic oligarchs. I say cynical because they know we live in a modern world that at least gives lip service to ideals of democracy and a more equitable society, and yet here we are wrapping up 8 seasons of a hugely popular series appealing to people's nostalgia for an even more oppressive and inequitable world of slavery and serfdom. I think the writers saw the irony in that, and so do I.

And Martin wouldn't be original in this approach. But then I guess he wouldn't claim to be either.

The Iliad basically depicts the many different shades of heroism but makes them very human. There is the ideal of what a 'hero' is and quite often how the heroes are depicted falling short of what those ideals are.

An ideal world is just that. Ideal. Hasn't humanities struggle always been about trying to find that perfection but knowing that getting everyone pointing in the same direction is a nigh on impossible task therefore you do so with the full knowledge that the ideal will never be achieved. The question then is why try?

I actually thought that there were a lot of historical similarities to the last episode. The likes of the end of WW1 with everyone involved having enough of killing, war, and seeing vast swathes of their youth wiped out on ugly, chard battlefields.

Sam's concept was laughed down, much in the same way I would imagine any suggestion of it's type before the Magna Carta would have been. But that in itself suggest the idea existed before it was signed. Ideas start somewhere, often not being realised until much later. But essentially what he triggered was a sense of some form of council. It was a compromise. A league of nations almost.
RP Tabletop Blog:


RP vlog channel: https://www.youtube.com/@RandomPlatypus

Offline Belligerentparrot

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 480
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #620 on: May 23, 2019, 08:12:16 AM »
Something very simple just occurred to me, so I went back and checked....

Lots of people on t'internet have complained about how the Dothraki were wiped out at Winterfell and then magically reappear in numbers in later episodes.

I can't see any suggestion, in the Winterfell episode, that *all* the Dothraki charge. A big detachment certainly do. But the idea that they all do seems to be something people have read into the episode themselves.

We're explicitly told later that half their number survived. Which makes it even more likely only a detachment charge with flaming swords, right?


Offline Mad Doc Morris

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1781
  • Olympus speaketh?
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #621 on: May 23, 2019, 08:41:34 AM »
@warrenpeace: A convincing argument, many thanks for that. :)
Cynism is certainly another key feature of GRRM's world-building. I can see that his inherently pessimistic perspective on human society has a lot in common with late medieval/early modern conceptions of spiralling history and mechanistic power politics, from Commynes to Machiavelli and Shakespeare. Like you pointed out, though, it's a comment on modern western society. So I'd perhaps expected a more complex 'solution' to the many issues raised than a few lucky survivors staging an impromptu restoration which results in their respective 'happy ending'.

This, of course, may well be simply due to my disappointment with the script-writers' ham-fisted presentation. I fully appreciate the general direction of the plot, its themes as well as its staging. Even if I don't agree with its argument, in fact, it's why I kept reading/watching in the first place. But during the last three seasons I lost all confidence in D&D's narrative execution beyond self-references, visual effects and cheap jokes. (If the repudiation of Sam's proposal was intentionally cynical, I'd rather assume that it was a poorly executed device by someone else.)
Because of that I do – irrationally, I know – hope that now there's an impulse for GRRM to provide an 'extended cut' of his vision by finishing these damn books. ;)

Offline thebinmann

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4218
  • Can't paint but dreams...
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #622 on: May 23, 2019, 10:42:04 AM »
I agree. It was very moving. I thought it made sense. Apart perhaps from Grey Worm, everyone else involved knows that The Night's Watch no longer has a role or purpose. So actually sending John to Castle Black is an act of mercy. They are setting him free to live out his life amongst the Free Folk north of the wall - the great burdens of responsibility and duty he has been forced against his wishes to carry for all his adult life, finally lifted from his shoulders. It's not his punishment - it's his reward.
Well, that's my take on it anyway  :)

A bit like Bilbo and Frodo....

Offline Captain Blood

  • Global Moderator
  • Elder God
  • Posts: 19308
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #623 on: May 23, 2019, 07:36:00 PM »
Well there is a certain similarity between Frodo and John Snow... not just the hair...

Offline thebinmann

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4218
  • Can't paint but dreams...
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #624 on: May 23, 2019, 08:50:47 PM »
Yeah, and the goodbye scene at the port...

Offline ARKOUDAKI

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 818
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #625 on: May 23, 2019, 10:35:38 PM »
Well if the writer's and/or director's don't know how to write/tell a story then what better to do than plagiarize others work. Just another reason why I was disappointed by the last season. Oh well....it's over and done with...

Now watching Chernobyl and that is a pretty good story telling show...plus I know how it ends!  ;D

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Mad Scientist
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #626 on: May 24, 2019, 11:49:54 AM »
Now watching Chernobyl and that is a pretty good story telling show...plus I know how it ends!  ;D

I watched the second episode yesterday. Its ending is poignant.

Offline cdm

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 349
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #627 on: May 25, 2019, 07:55:30 AM »
I wandered in and out of the series. Instant recharge unlimited dragon breath reminded me of how hollywood some bits were.

Picking Bran as king can only lead to upcoming succession problems or I did I miss something obvious about him being able to continue the lineage. Shrug. I don't know, maybe that is the depressing part, it's a set up for further civil war for claimants to fight over and continue on, maybe for Mr Snow's lineage to show up again in the kingship stakes.

Overall I liked the series, but not enough to want to go back and watch again or even consider gaming parts of it.

Offline Plynkes

  • The Royal Bastard
  • Elder God
  • Posts: 10212
  • I killed Mufasa!
    • http://misterplynkes.blogspot.com/
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #628 on: May 25, 2019, 08:41:59 AM »
They tried to sell it as a positive. His inability to produce issue suits their new system of no more inherited monarchy, new incumbents of the Iron Slag Heap will be chosen by a council of nobles from now on. They figured this will mean no more mad, bad rulers. Well, I'm all for ditching hereditary monarchy, but getting rid of it never quite worked out that way in our world. Maybe they'll have better luck.


With Cat-Like Tread
Upon our prey we steal...

Offline thebinmann

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4218
  • Can't paint but dreams...
Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #629 on: May 25, 2019, 09:22:15 AM »
Well if the writer's and/or director's don't know how to write/tell a story then what better to do than plagiarize others work. Just another reason why I was disappointed by the last season. Oh well....it's over and done with...

You know there are only four stories to tell: a love story between two people, a love story between three people, the struggle for power and the voyage (Borges). Or perhaps even two as Aristotle said: Comedy and Tragedy.

If you add in Joe Campbell's work then every story is cover - perhaps it was he that inspired Tryion.


So if there are only four, two or perhaps seven stories and in fact within that the characters are always the same archetypes, then... why both? Well because as Tyrion, and Campbell, and everyone tells us stories tell us who we are and where we came from and perhaps where we are going, and where we shouldn't go again

OK maybe there are 7 stories...

    Overcoming the Monster.
    Rags to Riches.
    The Quest.
    Voyage and Return.
    Rebirth.
    Comedy.
    Tragedy.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
2414 Views
Last post March 23, 2008, 12:03:51 PM
by UncleRhino
15 Replies
5031 Views
Last post April 06, 2011, 09:57:53 AM
by Conrad Hawkwood
7 Replies
3516 Views
Last post November 19, 2014, 01:50:56 PM
by The_Beast
7 Replies
2755 Views
Last post September 03, 2016, 04:29:00 PM
by Brummie Thug
31 Replies
3895 Views
Last post February 09, 2018, 06:00:53 PM
by Lost Egg