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Author Topic: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?  (Read 37602 times)

Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #480 on: May 15, 2019, 01:48:18 PM »
The Wire

Sheeeeeiiiiiiit, The Wire was great, but I wouldn't say it was a spectacle in the way GoT can be. And S5 was crap with the fictional serial killer.

But yeah, The Wire is still the best TV ever.

Back on topic: only one more episode to go! Feels funny.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #481 on: May 15, 2019, 01:50:52 PM »
The Golden Company was a bit disappointing I must admit. Given that they were supposed to be 20,000 strong, they could have done with some CGI multiplication, per the Unsullied in previous episodes.
I donít recall their appearance from the novels, but I rather liked their outfits in this. Kind of Byzantine, which I think works in the context of Essos as against Westeros.
The main problem was that there only appeared to be a few dozen of them, rather than the promised 20,000. They deployed in front of the city (again!) And they did absolutely nothing.  lol
Golden Company

They're 10,000, not 20,000 strong...

While I didn't expect a faithful depiction, I was expecting more than just a scene like in Sweet Liberty with the renenactors.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #482 on: May 15, 2019, 02:02:49 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/15/a-song-of-ice-and-ire-how-game-of-thrones-enraged-its-audience

Here's another one: Emilia Clarke And The "GoT" Creators Have Responded To The Daenerys Plot Twist Backlash

Unlike Varys' attempts to poison Daenarys, the descent into cliched villainy was obvious for seasons, despite Clarke's wooden acting - remember the scene with the visions? The problem is that the last 2 seasons seemed rushed, almost like D&D have better things to do - what if they had accepted the studio's offer of 10 episode seasons? I expected more from a truncated season, instead of filler scenes and unnecessarily long battles.   
 


Offline Hammers

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #483 on: May 15, 2019, 02:04:28 PM »
The Wire, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Sons of Anarchy, Godless, Deadwood, Battlestar Galactica... Humm... I beg to difer.  ;)


Yes, well, I was a bit eliptical in my post. I was thinking sans pareil in terms of ambition, daring annd pay off. My list is not the same as yours but you mention a few which I place up there to. But I still do not percieve any of them as complicated yet as successful as GoT (with Band of Brother second).

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #484 on: May 15, 2019, 02:05:20 PM »
I thought the episode was pretty good. Daenarys's propensity for atrocity has been built up steadily over the series - and foreshadowed both by her father's toasty ways and the visions in Quarth (or wherever it was).

And - as in the previous episode, with Grey Worm's ordering Missandei to the lifeboat having tragic consequences - I thought there was some decent plotting in there. I liked the way that the revelation of Jon's ancestry played into the tragedy not in itself, but by the fact that his Northern disinclination for incest leads him to reject Daenarys as a lover and thus tip her from "love" to "fear".

The Euron stuff was rubbish, of course, as it alway is (why did they think it a good idea to take Darth Vader and turn him into Jack Sparrow?). And I wasn't particularly interested in the clash of Cleganes.

Also, I think we have to accept that GoT (like LotR) can't do convincing massed battles. The best fight the show's done is Hardome, which was essentially a skirmish. That was almost note-perfect. But once you get into bodies of troops and manoeuvres, it's all a bit of a mess (see also The Two Towers, with that ridiculous, computer-gamey charge along the causeway and the gravity-defying charge down the slope that followed ...).

But what GoT can do is sustained mood. I thought the echoes of the likes of the sack of Magdeburg, not to mention Dresden and Hiroshima, were chillingly well done. It looks like there'll be more of that next week.

My longest-standing complaint about the show is that its warfare has got steadily less medieval. I lament the vanishing of all the glorious full helms that were in evidence at the start of the show (think Brienne, the Hound, etc.).

The most ridiculous aspects of the show's approach to warfare are Martin's fault, I think: the bowless invincibility of the Dothraki (just why are these light cavalry so effective?) and the very existence of the Unsullied: child eunuchs would not grow up to be formidable soldiers, let alone look the real soldiers they use as extras!

But - as with the Long Night - I was gripped throughout and am very much looking forward to the conclusion.

Offline Hammers

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #485 on: May 15, 2019, 02:05:38 PM »
So what? I get it, you're a show fan, so reasonable criticisms are simply dismissed...

Uh, what?

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #486 on: May 15, 2019, 02:26:04 PM »
I read an interview the other day (will see if I can dig it out) where GRRM hinted that the weather cycle wasnít natural (either the Night King or something else). It was noticeable that the blizzard followed the NK, and the storm broke after he was killed.

Martin(2005): US Signing Tour (Ann Arbor, MI)

Quote
Someone asked why the seasons are so messed up. Martin said he couldn't give an answer necause that would be telling! He did say that there would eventually be an answer in one of the books, and the answer would be a fantasy (as opposed to a science fiction/science based) answer.

Game of Thrones: Thereís a Scientific Reason for Westerosís Years-Long Winters Or at least, there are climate scientists happily overthinking this fantasy world.
Martin has been consistent with the lazy magic explanation, but there's a difference between the books and the TV show, the most obvious being the depiction of the Others and the lack of a Night King in the former. In both instances the cold does accompany 'em, but I haven't found any mention of being responsible for the extended seasons. Like the Children of the Forest, the Others/White Walkers, are part of an inscrutable magical world, not contributing to it. It's possible D&D changed it, like how they easily got rid of the Tyrells and Martells in a lazy manner. o_o

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #487 on: May 15, 2019, 02:45:21 PM »
My longest-standing complaint about the show is that its warfare has got steadily less medieval. I lament the vanishing of all the glorious full helms that were in evidence at the start of the show (think Brienne, the Hound, etc.).

The most ridiculous aspects of the show's approach to warfare are Martin's fault, I think: the bowless invincibility of the Dothraki (just why are these light cavalry so effective?) and the very existence of the Unsullied: child eunuchs would not grow up to be formidable soldiers, let alone look the real soldiers they use as extras!

But - as with the Long Night - I was gripped throughout and am very much looking forward to the conclusion.
Don't forget the lack of color in a pseudo-medieval setting in contrast with the battle scene from Knights of the Round Table(1953): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9X6dxQ3nIk.

Martin did set up the battles, but D&D ignored the details, such as pikemen at Blackwater. The Dothraki are supposed to be mounted bowmen and we saw it last season.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/122846-wouldnt-the-unsullied-be-weak-wout-testicles-to-produce-testosterone/

I don't see the Unsullied as formidable, especially as depicted on TV: they're good in organized groups, but fail as individuals, like in the street fights in Mereen against the insurgents.

Offline thebinmann

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #488 on: May 15, 2019, 02:50:49 PM »
Ha, "injury-time character development", I like that.  :)

The Alex Ferguson (and now Mauricio Pochettino) school of TV

Offline AKULA

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #489 on: May 15, 2019, 05:32:55 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, the dive bombing run on the ships was reused footage from the Mereen battle.   

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the Mereen battle had different ship designs, the sky was crisscrossed with flaming missiles, and Daenerys wore a different outfit.

(Edit) ah, Hammers beat me to it....  lol

I wasn't referring to the close ups or the CGI arrows...

So what were you referring to? Iím genuinely interested in what you think was reused footage, given it was a completely different cityscape, different ships, different background, and the only dragon that featured in both pieces of footage was ďdifferentĒ because the actual scenes were different, and the rider was wearing different clothing...so what footage was reused?

 :?


So what? I get it, you're a show fan, so reasonable criticisms are simply dismissed...

Hammers didnít appear to be dismissing criticism, he just pointed out that he believed you were mistaken, and provided a link to make his point.

Iím not sure why you are taking this tone in what has otherwise been a very civil discussion....
➡️ ➡️ ➡️ ➡️CLICK HERE FOR AKULAís SALE BARGAINS⬅️ ⬅️ ⬅️ ⬅️

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #490 on: May 15, 2019, 06:38:38 PM »
Don't forget the lack of color in a pseudo-medieval setting in contrast with the battle scene from Knights of the Round Table(1953): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9X6dxQ3nIk.

Yes! Older films seemed to be a lot better at depicting individual heraldry (a notable failure of Braveheart)

Martin did set up the battles, but D&D ignored the details, such as pikemen at Blackwater. The Dothraki are supposed to be mounted bowmen and we saw it last season.

True - but am I not right in thinking that both books and show put a lot of emphasis on their charge and arakhs? It's been a long while since I read the books, though.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/122846-wouldnt-the-unsullied-be-weak-wout-testicles-to-produce-testosterone/

I don't see the Unsullied as formidable, especially as depicted on TV: they're good in organized groups, but fail as individuals, like in the street fights in Mereen against the insurgents.

They're touted as "the best infantry in the world", no?

There's a lot of specious reasoning on that thread, and a huge underestimation of the role of strength. It's strength that makes fighters quick and agile; I agree with the poster there who said that DEX and STR aren't as separate as RPGs would have us believe.

Eunuchs lose muscle mass rapidly, even when castrated as adults. They also have frail bones and tend to suffer from scoliosis and osteoporosis eventually. But the Unsullied are castrated when very young - so they wouldn't develop adult mass and strength in the first place. They'd be essentially overgrown children.

The books handwave this with "training". But eunuchs wouldn't respond nearly so well to training as normal men, and they'd be more vulnerable to overtraining and exhaustion. So they'd be starting from a position of severe weakness and then "running to stand still" in avoiding muscle loss, fat gain and gynaecomastia.

So, basically, your uncastrated conscripts who do a bit of training would be getting stronger (and would be heavier, stronger and more aggressive to start with) while your Unsullied would be trying to stave off muscle loss, flab and injuries.

To make matters worse, the Unsullied fight in a phalanx-type formation. Imagine a giant rugby scrum with normal forwards on one side and a bunch of flabby kids who've never undergone puberty on the other ... ouch!

Offline Belligerentparrot

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #491 on: May 15, 2019, 07:08:47 PM »
Hobgoblin - well, I've learnt something today!

On the general point abt the Dothraki - I thought (hazy memory of the books) a lot of their power is in the fear they instil in the 7 kingdoms folk. No one has really seen the Dothraki, but they've all heard the (no doubt inflated) tales of how awesome they are. So there's a palpable sense that 7 kingdoms soldiers might have lost that battle before they even fight it.

The strategy guys know differently though - doesn't Jaime/Tywin/Robert (can't remember who) in Season 1/Bk 1 say "Oh yeah, the Dothraki are great until they encounter armoured knights and castle walls. We've nothing to worry about."

Jaime does get the heebies about them in Season 7, but isn't that because a) he had no knights with him when the convoy is attacked and b) they had Drogon  :)

Offline Charlie_

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #492 on: May 15, 2019, 09:59:12 PM »
I still reckon in the books, if it comes to Dany invading Westeros with a dothraki horde, she'll suddenly realise what an awful idea it is. Either they will simply refuse to cross the sea, or they will but prove completely ineffective in the siege warfare that taking Westeros would probably require.



I gotta say, just focusing on the military side of GoT, the show really irritates me. All the military have what I call 'stormtrooper syndrome' - they are all depicted as faceless automatons.

This works for the Unsullied of course.

But both the Tyrell troops back in season 6 (I think?) and the Lannister troops who take Riverrun (also season 6?) are portrayed as all wearing identical uniforms, marching in perfect lockstep. It just looks silly I think, and nothing like the more historical vision I had in my head when reading the books. Of course, this is just personal taste. But I would much prefer to see all the armies as being much less disciplined, and varied in their armour and weaponry, with heraldry of individual knights and lords in evidence.
(at least the Tyrell troops had spears and shields - the Lannister troops seemed to be equipped with just swords!)

And then we briefly got the Golden Company... who apparently were another host of stormtroopers / clones. I'd much preferred them as say, heavy cavalry... In the books they are supposed to feature a lot of Westerosi exiles, or descendants of those who fought (and died) for Daemon Blackfyre in the Blackfyre rebellions..... Many of whom have (dubious) claims to lands and estates in Westeros. Well that's probably just among the leadership and officers... But I always imagined them as having a more Westerosi style of fighting rather than the other more exotic / eastern mercenary companies.

Again though this is just personal preference - if the show is intentionally trying to distance itself from medieval Europe aesthetically (and perhaps a more classical vision of warfare).... Then fair enough  :)

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #493 on: May 16, 2019, 12:00:49 AM »
Iím not sure why you are taking this tone in what has otherwise been a very civil discussion....

Indeed. Itís a friendly, civil discussion amongst fellow enthusiasts. If youíve got some aggression to get out of your system, do it elsewhere. This isnít that kind of forum.

Offline Condottiere

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Re: SPOILER ALERT! So am I the only one excited about a new round of GoT?
« Reply #494 on: May 16, 2019, 12:50:25 AM »
Indeed. Itís a friendly, civil discussion amongst fellow enthusiasts. If youíve got some aggression to get out of your system, do it elsewhere. This isnít that kind of forum.
I don't know why you couldn't bring this up via PM. :-I

There was no hint of aggression in my tone and simply someone pointing it out based on their perception doesn't make it so...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 12:56:53 AM by Condottiere »

 

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