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Author Topic: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...  (Read 11151 times)

Offline Dilettante Gamer

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2016, 07:20:25 PM »
To mark different houses, I rely on banners. So infantry from one house look much the same as infantry from another house... it's the flags above them that mark out their allegiance. A good thing about this is I don't have to paint up a whole new army for every house, just a few new flags!

While I'm in the distinctive look for each major house camp, your approach is certainly the fastest path to tabletop gaming! Being less than halfway through distinct 4 retinues.  :)
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Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2016, 07:57:02 PM »
A good discussion...  And welcome, jim rae, to the innermost circle of discerning LAFers with a Game of Thrones habit  :D

I agree with much of what's been said above. I now deploy my usual treatise on this subject - sorry if you've heard it before...
In a nutshell...

George RR Martin essentially describes a largely homogenous, medieval knightly culture which stretches from one end of Westeros to the other.
They all use medieval style heraldry, they all live in castles, wear plate armour and mail, train from boyhood with swords, take part in tournaments and jousting.
Martin's world as written is essentially an American 'Renaissance Fayre' style, semi-idealised, non period-specific vision of medieval Europe. So the Starks are not hairy, grungy half-barbarians, the Ironborn are not Vikings, and the Martells are not Arabs. The Seven Kingdoms are all, broadly, medieval Western European.

Martin certainly portrays other distinctive and recognisable non-European medieval cultures - Arabic, Steppe nomads, African etc. But they are all in Essos.

As mentioned in another thread a couple of days ago, take the example of Dorne / Martell...
HBO and other illustrators have them cast as denizens of Al Andalus, if not outright Arabic. But look at a map of Westeros. The lands of House Tyrell are adjacent to House Martell. Same latitude and neighbouring cultures. In fact the Tyrells' lush island vineyards of The Arbor lie further south than most of Dorne. And yet in all the illustrations in books and games, as well as the HBO series, the Tyrells are resolutely portrayed as fair-complexioned Western European knights in shining armour in their verdant and fertile farmlands and orchards. With Martell - right next door - invariably portrayed as an exotic, dusky-skinned, pseudo-Saracen culture living in a sweltering semi-desert.
Doesn't make sense.

It's just an easy way of forcing some kind of radical visual difference on the main houses, because it's more interesting that way for art directors. And from HBO's point of view, for the undiscerning TV audience, a way of helping them remember which house is which. The books certainly suggest some cultural differences from house to house, region to region, but these have been blown out of all proportion by most interpreters, and in particular by HBO of course.

Offline Plynkes

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 08:06:45 PM »

With Martell - right next door - invariably portrayed as an exotic, dusky-skinned, pseudo-Saracen culture living in a sweltering semi-desert.
Doesn't make sense.


The geography may not make sense, but the Martells aren't Andals or First Men. They are Rhoynar - from Essos. So the whole Al-Andalus vibe does kind of fit them, from a certain point of view.


Edit: (And the lorebook, part written by, and certainly authorized by George himself, does describe Dorne as a land of "sweltering heat, sandstorms and scorpions", and depicts the Dornishmen as looking pretty like Moors or Andalusians. So I don't think we can lay the blame entirely at HBO's door.)


« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:13:46 PM by Plynkes »
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Offline Dilettante Gamer

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 10:54:22 PM »
Agree with the substance of Captain Blood's and charlie_'s perspectives above AND I'd gently reiterate that it's a valid design choice to make each house distinctive for tabletop gaming for reasons not dissimilar from those of tv art directors - ease of recognition, dramatic flair, making each new house retinue interesting to work on.   So many ways to go with it, which is the beauty of it. Not to mention license to acquire, and mix minis from across periods and sources. Wheeeeee!


Offline dbsubashi

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2016, 12:33:49 AM »
If you are looking for inspiration Jim, a good source is the 2 art books published by Fantasy Flight Games. Full of lush art from their card and board games. They can be found on Used on Ebay for savings (that can then be used for minis!)

link

Offline Hupp n at em

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2016, 04:54:41 AM »
While the Rhoynar are an important aspect of Dornish culture as it is at the time of the books, Dorne was a desert and there were Dornishmen long before Nymeria lead her exodus to end up there.  There are three roughly identifiable groups in Dorne (ignoring the Orphans of the Greenblood as they are by far the smallest in population, and aren't really fighters):

1) Stony Dornishmen.  These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne.  These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.

2) Sandy Dornishmen.  They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated.  They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.

3) Salty Dornishmen.  The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture.  Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?

Interesting couple of things to add after double-checking myself on the wiki...

"Dornishmen prefer round metal shields, spears, short throwing spears or double-curved bows. The Dornishmen are famous for their sand steed-riding light cavalry, and use their double-curved bows skillfully from horseback. Because of the heat, they wear lighter armor than in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms made of metal disks, sometimes decorated with copper, sewn in the manner of scales on the leather. To allow themselves to fight in the burning sun of Dorne, they wear brightly colored flowing robes covering the metal parts of their armor."

"George R. R. Martin has acknowledged that historical influences for Dorne include Palestine, Spain, and Wales."

Maybe they are more Andalusian than we thought?  I do agree that is a synthesis of things rather than pure imitation though.

Offline Hupp n at em

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2016, 04:55:34 AM »
If you are looking for inspiration Jim, a good source is the 2 art books published by Fantasy Flight Games. Full of lush art from their card and board games. They can be found on Used on Ebay for savings (that can then be used for minis!)

link

I believe one of the artists for their Westeros CCG has a lot of his work in viewable galleries online, I can't find the link at the moment but his name might be Tomasz something?

Offline dbsubashi

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2016, 06:19:15 AM »
I think you are referring to Tomazs Jedruszek Link

He is a major inspiration on my figures! I love his Lannister box art, and his Greyjoy art is very nice, showing later period armored raiders.

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2016, 07:34:19 AM »

Edit: (And the lorebook, part written by, and certainly authorized by George himself, does describe Dorne as a land of "sweltering heat, sandstorms and scorpions", and depicts the Dornishmen as looking pretty like Moors or Andalusians. So I don't think we can lay the blame entirely at HBO's door.)


These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.

IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.


While the Rhoynar are an important aspect of Dornish culture as it is at the time of the books, Dorne was a desert and there were Dornishmen long before Nymeria lead her exodus to end up there.  There are three roughly identifiable groups in Dorne (ignoring the Orphans of the Greenblood as they are by far the smallest in population, and aren't really fighters):

1) Stony Dornishmen.  These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne.  These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.

2) Sandy Dornishmen.  They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated.  They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.

3) Salty Dornishmen.  The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture.  Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?

Interesting couple of things to add after double-checking myself on the wiki...

"Dornishmen prefer round metal shields, spears, short throwing spears or double-curved bows. The Dornishmen are famous for their sand steed-riding light cavalry, and use their double-curved bows skillfully from horseback. Because of the heat, they wear lighter armor than in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms made of metal disks, sometimes decorated with copper, sewn in the manner of scales on the leather. To allow themselves to fight in the burning sun of Dorne, they wear brightly colored flowing robes covering the metal parts of their armor."


:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it...  ::))


"George R. R. Martin has acknowledged that historical influences for Dorne include Palestine, Spain, and Wales."

Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points  lol


Offline Barbarus

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2016, 08:15:11 AM »

Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points  lol



I think it is kind of fitting. The immigration bit fits Wales... also the isolation-marches-bit.
Palestine maybe because it has been a melting pot for such a long time?

There were certainly a lot of cultures that came through Palestine and some of them never left.
Could also be the relation with the crusades...European style knights meet Arabian desert folks.

Spanish... well, that one is obvious with the Umayyad establishing their Al-Andalus...



And the fact that the Tyrells are next to Dorne and depicted as "European"... how about seeing them as Italians?
I mean... that is something taken from reality.
While a large part of Spain looked and acted very differently from the rest of Europe, Italy was "European" and its knights were "European", despite having a similar climate as Spain in some parts...
Climate alone certainly doesnt make you look or act Arabic.

 
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Offline Silent Invader

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 08:20:16 AM »
These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.

IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.


:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it...  ::))


 

Quote from: Captain Blood
And from HBO's point of view, for the undiscerning TV audience, a way of helping them remember which house is which.

Yep that's me: undiscerning!  :D  Seriously though, it's not a historical production, it's fantasy. Similar points could be made about LotR etc. That said, I don't think it unrealistic for organised factions to be differently uniformed and equipped: yep, sure, they take it to an nth degree (the Lanister and Bolton helmets kill me... :o) but even Celts, Saxons and Vikings had differences in appearances. If those differences weren't extrapolated by wargamers then a game of Saga might only be possible by painting the minis of one side red and the other blue!

Anyways, in both your posts Richard you rather usefully observe the two extremes, those that like it simple (some might say spoon-fed) .... By and large, TV viewers...... And those who over-egg the canon (some might say obsessively) .... By and large, Book readers.

My own take is of course a contradiction, in that for the appearance of my mini factions I analyse and extrapolate the TV production with the enthusiasm of a Book reader.  lol


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Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 08:27:52 AM »
On the whole I'm on Captain Blood with this. There is so much 'semi-canon' and 'non-canon' material out there. When you actually comb the books for source material, some of it can be pretty thin.
Take the usual suspects among the Lannister forces. The sum total of refs to sigils and banners is pretty sparse at best...
Before the Green Fork in Game of Thrones
Ser Adam Marbrand "a burning tree, orange and smoke" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Flement Brax "purple unicorn" (GOT, p.660) "they are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister...a son of Brax" (COK, p.592)
"The brindled boar of Crakehall" (GOT, p.660)
"The Bantam rooster of Swyft" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Gregor Clegane "Three black dogs on a yellow field" (GOT, p.661)
And the Lannister host marching out of Harrenhal in Clash of Kings, also frustratingly vague...
"Behind the Lannisters came their great lords and captains. Their banners flared and flapped a pageant of colour Red ox, golden mountain [presumably Lefford?], purple unicorn [Brax], bantam rooster [Swyft], brindled boar [Crakehall], and badger [Lydden], a silver ferret, and a juggler in motley, stars and sunbursts, peacock [Serrett], and panther, chevron and dagger, black hood, and blue beetle, and green arrow" (COK, p.501)
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used... I would urge anyone who wants to go to the trouble of painting up contingents, like any other gaming 'period', to do their research and check the sources first. Then they can decide how far they want their take to go... In many cases it will inevitably be down to educated guesswork and supposition...

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Offline jim rae

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2016, 08:52:20 AM »
Quote
Anyways, in both your posts Richard you rather usefully observe the two extremes, those that like it simple (some might say spoon-fed) .... By and large, TV viewers...... And those who over-egg the canon (some might say obsessively) .... By and large, Book readers.

My personal feelings as well. While i'm amazingly 'enthused' by the production values of the series, there are, and let's not beat about the bush, some really obsessive people out there who will do their utmost to instill a degree of fundamentalist thought into the interpretation.

What, reassures me, in the many threads and posts here, the common line is 'interpretation' no single poster has all the answers but taken together, there is enormous mass of helpful information.

At the moment, my understanding of how to begin modeling GoT, has improved immeasurably.

Thank You  :)

Offline Hupp n at em

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2016, 12:17:03 PM »
:o :o :o
But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it...  ::))

I missed it too, apparently, as all of those wiki citations are from the books with the exception of one from the World of Ice and Fire.  lol

Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points  lol

Yeah, that's confusing as hell to picture so I assume the "influence" there is visual to varying degrees and more about identity?

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2016, 12:57:50 PM »
You need to treat the WIKI refs with caution...
I missed it too, apparently, as all of those wiki citations are from the books with the exception of one from the World of Ice and Fire.
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used

 

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