Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...

[Hupp n at em]

You need to treat the WIKI refs with caution...

True, but the Wiki is curated by the same superfan couple that helped write World of Ice and Fire AFAIK.  They're friends with George and I think for the last few books he even has them check his lore consistency with what he has already written.

[LordOdo]

1) Stony Dornishmen.  These are the least Rhoynish, the Houses like the Yronwoods who guard the mountain passes into Dorne.  These are the guys manning the Dornish side of the Dornish Marches; it's implied that when the Marches were more active (pre-unification), more raids were being launched from the Dornish side than the Stormlands or Reach, so they are pretty strong militarily. They look more like other Andal/First Men Westerosi.

2) Sandy Dornishmen.  They inhabit the central deserts, and are the darkest, though whether that's due to ethnicity or the most sun exposure is anyone's guess, it's not really stated.  They would probably have the most HBO/Bedouin look to them.

3) Salty Dornishmen.  The Martells and others on the coast, who took on the most Rhoynish blood/culture.  Apparently the Rhoynish ethnic look is olive skin and long black hair, so probably more Mediterranean than Arab?

But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it...  )

The differences between, salty, stony and sandy Dornish are actually explained in the books. I'm not sure to what level it is explained though.

[Captain Blood]

@Hupp - understood.

The difficulty a pernickety git like me faces, is that I want my miniatures project to portray the fictional world in accordance with what the brilliant fantasy author has written in his brilliant fantasy books.

The fact that he has some obsessive superfans who have taken it upon themselves to overlay a lot of stuff of their own creation, albeit with the approval of the author, but which never appears in the novels themselves, makes it hard to separate what's a valid reference point from what isn't.
Like I've said before, I'm certain that many of the sigils and heraldic colour references people quote here and elsewhere were not created by GRRM - but dreamt up by said superfans... And even though GRRM may have approved their interpretations, frankly, I don't want to use them.
I suppose I'm instinctively a purist (silly of me, I know). I want to create a wargame world based on Martin's brilliant books - not on what some other interpreter has added after the event in ancillary works which I have no interest in reading...

Anyway, not worth arguing about. Just saying  

[Silent Invader]

That's an admirable commitment to your project Richard. 

As a more general observation, and it's a somewhat simplistic one, isn't the point of a good read that it's your personal interpretation and imagination of the raw words that the author has gifted you. With this in mind, when it comes to the books I don't really 'get' the 'super fan' overlay that serves to create more 'canon' than is iactually there.

[dbsubashi]

And I would say that is a strength about playing games in this setting, Capt'n. We can all portray our toy soldiers how we like.  

But back to Jim Rae's question. Have you decided on a manufacturer yet Jim?

[Captain Blood]

As a more general observation, and it's a somewhat simplistic one, isn't the point of a good read that it's your personal interpretation and imagination of the raw words that the author has gifted you. With this in mind, when it comes to the books I don't really 'get' the 'super fan' overlay that serves to create more 'canon' than is iactually there.

Good point, well made. I think that's what I was trying to say 

And I would say that is a strength about playing games in this setting, Capt'n. We can all portray our toy soldiers how we like. 

I heartily concur 
The only difficulty is that when the question is asked 'what is 'right'?' I feel obliged to answer 'the books are the only thing that's 'right'. Everything else is interpretation by other people... '
Anyway. Enough already. jim rae, I hope you've got enough to go on...
I'm making my Brienne of Tarth later. We'll see how that goes...

[Hupp n at em]

@Hupp - understood.

The difficulty a pernickety git like me faces, is that I want my miniatures project to portray the fictional world in accordance with what the brilliant fantasy author has written in his brilliant fantasy books.

The fact that he has some obsessive superfans who have taken it upon themselves to overlay a lot of stuff of their own creation, albeit with the approval of the author, but which never appears in the novels themselves, makes it hard to separate what's a valid reference point from what isn't.
Like I've said before, I'm certain that many of the sigils and heraldic colour references people quote here and elsewhere were not created by GRRM - but dreamt up by said superfans... And even though GRRM may have approved their interpretations, frankly, I don't want to use them.
I suppose I'm instinctively a purist (silly of me, I know). I want to create a wargame world based on Martin's brilliant books - not on what some other interpreter has added after the event in ancillary works which I have no interest in reading...

Anyway, not worth arguing about. Just saying  

Nah, I don't think anyone in this thread reached the point of argument, just discussion.    People are free to depict it as they wish!  What's the use of GRRM's great imagination if it doesn't inspire us and fire up our own?  That is definitely a fair point about "pure Martin" vs. "stuff he said at a panel one time" and "he made a passing reference to this House's sigil, but not the colors, which were added by the wiki curator".  I'm just thankful that what extrapolation is present there is nothing close to resembling the sprawling mess that was the old Star Wars EU. 

[Charlie_]

On the whole I'm on Captain Blood with this. There is so much 'semi-canon' and 'non-canon' material out there. When you actually comb the books for source material, some of it can be pretty thin.
Take the usual suspects among the Lannister forces. The sum total of refs to sigils and banners is pretty sparse at best...
Before the Green Fork in Game of Thrones
Ser Adam Marbrand "a burning tree, orange and smoke" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Flement Brax "purple unicorn" (GOT, p.660) "they are flying a purple unicorn below the lion of Lannister...a son of Brax" (COK, p.592)
"The brindled boar of Crakehall" (GOT, p.660)
"The Bantam rooster of Swyft" (GOT, p.660)
Ser Gregor Clegane "Three black dogs on a yellow field" (GOT, p.661)
And the Lannister host marching out of Harrenhal in Clash of Kings, also frustratingly vague...
"Behind the Lannisters came their great lords and captains. Their banners flared and flapped a pageant of colour Red ox, golden mountain [presumably Lefford?], purple unicorn [Brax], bantam rooster [Swyft], brindled boar [Crakehall], and badger [Lydden], a silver ferret, and a juggler in motley, stars and sunbursts, peacock [Serrett], and panther, chevron and dagger, black hood, and blue beetle, and green arrow" (COK, p.501)
The ASOIAF Wiki, while referencing the books, gives no indication of what particular details are cited. In most cases there is precious little beyond the actual emblem, and only occasional references to colours used... I would urge anyone who wants to go to the trouble of painting up contingents, like any other gaming 'period', to do their research and check the sources first. Then they can decide how far they want their take to go... In many cases it will inevitably be down to educated guesswork and supposition...

If you don't mind me asking, how did you find these references without re-reading the whole series with a notebook by your side? Have you used some sort of e-book or online reader to search for the house names?
If that is the case, I'd like to ask a favour and see if you can find actual references to a few other house sigils! There are some I'm planning, and I want to know how much of the 'canon' / 'semi-canon' versions are from the actual books.

[jim rae]

But back to Jim Rae's question. Have you decided on a manufacturer yet Jim?

I'm going to start small (well, 28mm  ) with some Bannermen. I've got a set of assembled Fireforge Knight Templars which i'm  going to convert with their 'flowing' cloaks turned into fur with magic-scufor each lpt. I'll probably change the heads as well as they have a kinda 'Norman' look to them.

As someone suggested before, i'll concentrate on small 'generic' units with 2-3 command figure groups with different banners.

Now I have to start looking through what I have in my Perry boxes... 

[dbsubashi]

Sounds like a good start! I can tell you that Perry sallet heads look great on FireForge bodies. Also, once you get through the Templar box, the Tuetonic Knight box comes with fur-trimmed cloaks, replacing the mantled cloaks in the Templar box. I also think the Tuetonic "special" bodies are different ( the 4 bodies on the "command" sprue) giving you some different options for your bands.

[mentok27]

I gave up on 28mm since I would never be able to capture the scale of the world.... I've now moved onto 6mm and I have grand plans for westeros and Essos. 6mm means no conversions but the stock models at that scale will do well enough conveying the look i want.... Ironborn and northerners are hard to pick a range for however.

I need to build armies for each of the 9 great houses first then Essos

[dbsubashi]

Forgive this bad photo; I am shooting it off my paint table. Here are 2 of my Greyjoys using Fireforge bodies with Perry heads.

[Hammers]

These would be the fabled 'semi-canon sources' so beloved of the various GoT wiki sites.
Well, I read and enjoyed the novels and base my interpretation / observations on what GRRM wrote there.
Like many hugely popular fantasy authors (Rowling, Pratchett et al) he has endorsed or even contributed to various semi-official 'encyclopaedias', charting and extending the rich imaginary world and cultures he created.
But to a large extent these extrapolations are the creations of obsessive fans. They're no longer describing the world the original author created, but inventing a whole additional 'non-canon' layer of detail, references and back story, that changes what the original author described in his/her original novels.

IMHO, too much of what people take as gospel concerning GoT, is actually not from GRRM at all, but drawn from these assorted wikis, encylopaedia, compendiums and works of fan fiction. Rather than what's in the novels.



But where does all this stuff come from?? Again, this is a whole layer of confected detail that's not in the books, is it?
(Or if it is, I somehow skimmed over it...  )


Hmmm... Welsh-Spanish-Palestinians? That's a comically mismatched trio of cultural / ethnic reference points 

GRRM made a comment in an interview about the book "The world of ice and fire". Apparently it started as a website, GRRM was contacted for some clarifications and this lead to the book. From the start the plan was to have the authors (Eliot/Andersson) put everything in systematic order. GRRM is apparently bored with such things, he is just interested in extrapolating new ideas from history. GRRMs contribution of new or fleshed out material turned, he claims himself, became quite a headache for co-authors and publishers because it swelled to thousands and thousands of pages. I can imagine it took quite a bit of writing time from the completion of the next book in the series.

In short, the material in "The world of ice and fire" is quite cannon, it is just edited with GRRMs blessing (just like I am sure an editor has mucked about with the SoIaF).

[sukhe_bator]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you find these references without re-reading the whole series with a notebook by your side?

To answer Charlie's question, that's exactly what I did. Just me, the books, my mark-one eyeballs and a notebook and pen. It's not actually that hard because there are relatively few passages where there are battles and musters and references to sigils and banners. I may have missed a few, but I've committed them all to paper in 'my little black book'.

There are some I'm planning, and I want to know how much of the 'canon' / 'semi-canon' versions are from the actual books.

If there are houses you want refs for Charlie, just fire away!
The same goes for anyone else out there...





 

[jim rae]

I had a really good look at the Fireforge Teutonic Infantry this morning also, the Perry Agincourt French Infantry.

Loads of potential there!