GOT- or LOTR-Saga?

[Nord]

SBH? Thought we were talking about SBG - Strategy Battle Game by GW!

[Argonor]

SBH? Thought we were talking about SBG - Strategy Battle Game by GW!

Ah, sorry, I misread it 

[Barbarus]

Quick remark: you cannot get 30 dudes into a single fight in Saga. Unit size limit is 12 men and it is always one unit against one other unit, with the only exception being where the warlord leads a unit into melee, then you have three units in combat with each other.
So the maximum possible number of models engaged in combat in Saga is 25.
1 Warlord with 12 men attacking an enemy unit of 12 men.
But it is very unlikely all models will be able to generate Attack Dice in that scenario. So you probably are looking at something like 10 men against 8 or so.

Another reason why Saga is quick, no matter how many points you have on the table.



@Argonor

This "tide" in Saga is wonderful, isnt it?
I can see how this relates to the style of fighting during the Viking era. When you had shieldwalls and units of men running towards these trying to breach them, and retreating when they failed just to try it again some time later in the battle.
I can also see how the Battleboard abilities relate to the importance of morale with that style of fighting. Morale was a huge factor during a shieldwall and the leaders capabilities to motivate his men to stand fast were decisive to the outcome of battles.
So it all was really dependent on a leaders character. His speeches, his deeds and certainly the way he himself fought.

[Hobgoblin]

A question about Saga (which pertains to shieldwalls):

If you do a LotR adaptation, one of the points that Tolkien makes on about in a couple of places is that orcs (even the big ones) were disadvantaged against shieldwalls because they were short. I've been thinking a bit about how to adapt that to Lion/Dragon Rampant; I think the solution is probably to give opponents of all orcs (Uruk-hai included) an additional AP when in a shieldwall formation. That makes the orcs markedly less effective, which offsets the advantages that the uruks have (fast movement AND aggression AND heavy armour AND bows). And it should lead to the kind of tactical decision you see in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, when the Isengard orcs are withdrawn in favour of Dunlendings (who are taller and thus not disadvantaged).

Could the Saga mechanics handle this sort of thing? I've been interested in the ruleset for a while, and, with its Dark Age default setting, I could see that it might be a more natural fit for Middle Earth than LR, with its default high Middle Ages setting (great game that it is!).

[Nord]

Yes it could, there are three basic profiles, hearthguard, warrior and levy, all with identical rules, but you can tack on extras if you wish. Some suffer lighter armour for example - Welsh horse I think fall into this category, but not played for a while so could be wrong. In Saga terms you would probably increase the armour save for the shield wall when fighting the troops you mentioned.

[Hobgoblin]

Yes it could, there are three basic profiles, hearthguard, warrior and levy, all with identical rules, but you can tack on extras if you wish. Some suffer lighter armour for example - Welsh horse I think fall into this category, but not played for a while so could be wrong. In Saga terms you would probably increase the armour save for the shield wall when fighting the troops you mentioned.

Thanks! That's good to know. I think "how do you represent the Uruk-hai" is a real conundrum for gaming Middle Earth. Uruks have a lot of positives:

• The ability to move at great speeds for long distances
• heavy armour that doesn't impede the above
• powerful bows (that all of them seem to carry)
• reasonable discipline
• good morale and considerable ferocity

Nevertheless, they appear in the tens of thousands (uruks seem to make up the bulk of the armies of Isengard andMordor, and also appear in the forces of the North). And they die in their droves. The one disadvantage Tolkien consistently points to is their small stature. To that you could add a bit of ill discipline (wasting arrows and the like). A tendency to turn on their own kind isn't really a battlefield weakness; they don't do it randomly in the books.

So, the conundrum is, how do you get fast, heavily armoured combined archers/melee troops to appear in large numbers and not unbalance the game?

One thing I've thought of for DR is to use two models for one (so half a strength point each) in Bellicose Foot units with Shiny Armour and give them bows for free in return for a disadvantage against Man-sized shieldwalls. The idea is that the Wild Charge will give them limited use of their bows (just a 4" band of effective range before Wild Charge kicks in, to simulate aggression/shooting off all their arrows, etc. But the problem with this is that it rules out the "Death of Boromir" - and the fact that a good officer - like Ugluk - is able to stop them from charging and wasting their arrows.

Would double-sized units (with no mechanical effects - just two models removed for each kill) work OK in Saga? And does it have capacity for units that are both heavily armoured melee specialists and bow-armed? I can't think of any historical analogues, though there are some parallels with Persian and Byzantine heavy cavalry.

(This obsession probably appears marginally insane! But it is a tough one. In SBH, you can model it well by upping the combat score, adding the bow, but also adding the Rabble trait for all but the leaders, so that you get vicious and relatively fearsome enemies who will, nevertheless, die in their droves ....)

[fred]

With Saga you would try to model these things through the battle boards. You might make the Orc shooting only possible by spending dice on a battle board ability, rather than just a straight activation.

You could also have a charge battle board ability that is easier to activate, or is more powerful, so the player is more likely to choose that option.

For the human's shieldwall it could be a defensive battle board ability, perhaps one that is fairly easy to activate. And could be better against Orcs.

[jim rae]

To throw a smallish spanner into the works, firstly my preference is undoubtedly GoT. It seems that there are more possibilities and many still to be explored. So far, there's not that much magic involved and so it's 'containable' within the SAGA framework.

So, the spanner. This autumn will see the release of 'Super Saga' (buggered if I know what else to call it  ) which is going to encompass larger warbands, going into the medieval period etc. So, we'll theoretically get the best of both worlds and as i'm particularly interested in campaigning...

Now, in defence of Lion Rampant, that also has extraordinary possibilities. Sorry, with all this, i'm a real noob. When I were a lad, scuttling through the dark satanic mills of Glasgow, it was WRG (Wargames research Group) and little else.

Can't believe that i've come back into wargaming after decades away from it.....

[Hobgoblin]

Now, in defence of Lion Rampant, that also has extraordinary possibilities. Sorry, with all this, i'm a real noob. When I were a lad, scuttling through the dark satanic mills of Glasgow, it was WRG (Wargames research Group) and little else.

No argument there. Lion/Dragon Rampant is a tremendous set of rules. I've glanced through the Saga rules, but never played it. I must have played LR/DR more than any other set of rules barring Song of Blades and its offshoots.

Can't believe that i've come back into wargaming after decades away from it.....

I've not long done the same. Taking my son to Claymore last year was a peculiarly nostalgic experience after decades away from ANY SUCH THING!   

[m4jumbo]

I'd be interested in a LOTR version.

[Barbarus]

Okay, I think I made my choice.

I will start with the LOTR version and go for GOT later.
I am more familiar with LOTR than GOT and at least at the moment I find LOTR more attractive.


My (very) rough plan looks like this:

Do LOTR in three PDFs... first PDF with four factions, probably Rohan, Dwarves, Isengard, Moria
second PDF with two factions: Elves, Mordor
third PDF with two factions: Mina Tirith, Angmar

Makes eight factions and maybe I add the more "exotic" ones later if I feel like it...




Then I go and cover GOT in a very simple manner:

I will make one faction called "The Great Houses Of Westeros" which will cover just these, your Starks, Lannisters etc.
They will share a battleboard with medieval "knightly" tactics, but depending on the house you choose to depict, your options in equipping your units will change and some lists will also have one characteristic "special unit" in them.

Someone in this thread mentioned that the great houses are all basically just medieval knights... and I think that is the perfect way to go... cover them in one faction and then move on to the rest where we find other distinct fighting styles...

so in addition to the "Great Houses Of Westeros" we would have the "Night's Watch", the "Free Folk" and the "White Walkers"... these are the obvious ones...

and I think with regard to the skirmish level of fighting we are about to cover with this, it is fair to not include the Greyjoys in the "Great Houses Of Westeros" and make them a separate faction called "Ironborn" instead, because these raiders should make for an interesting Battleboard.

[Treebeard]

Very Happy with your choice :p
Choosing Rohan,Dwarves, Isengard and Moria make sense.
I would recommend to have Minas Tirith coming with Mordor as they are very linked.
And then Elves and Angmar

[Charlie_]

Ok, I've never played Saga. What's a 'battleboard'?

[Barbarus]

The Battleboard is the mechanism that differentiates Saga from all the other games.

It is a simple yet ingenious mechanic:

All factions in Saga use the same three profiles/unit types.

And then the Battleboards make the differences. Each of your units on the table generates a "Saga Die" at the beginning of your turn.
You roll these and then have a certain combination of symbols on your dice.
On your Battleboard you find abilities, which are (VERY!) different for each faction.
And these abilities have costs defined in certain Saga Dice symbols.

You then decide what combinations of abilities you can and want to use with your combination of symbols on the dice and place the dice on the Battleboard.
Then you make your turn and remove the dice and "pay" for the abilities when you use them.

[Nord]

Yes! Finally I vote for the winning side. 

Rohan, Dwarfs and Isengard sounds ace to me - that's my three armies.