Frostgrave vs. Song of Blades and Heroes.

[supervike]

So, if I were to dip my toe into the fun world of Fantasy skirmish, which do you recommend, and why?

Or is there altogether another choice I've left off?

[Hobgoblin]

I prefer SBH, but they're both good games. Both are pretty cheap - and there's no reason why warbands for one can't be used in the other (assuming you have a wizard or two for Frostgrave).

For me, SBH has these advantages:

1. Complete flexibility in warband design;
2. Very short "time to table" - you can knock up a couple of warbands in a few minutes;
3. Constant risk/reward decision-making
4. Constant involvement for both players (especially if you use ASBOH with reactions);
5. Almost limitless opportunities for differentiating one troop type from another - despite using just two stats.

I've enjoyed all the games of Frostgrave I've played, though.

[beefcake]

I like SOBH because you can have a warband full of giant monsters or tiny goblins and don't need to stick to set forces. Basically you get to theme your own warband. SOBH is a nice "lite" sort of game, not too many stats to remember. Plenty of expansions to make it more interesting.
Frostgrave however has a whole background of fluff to go with it. I haven't yet played it (although I've collected all the books so far) so can't comment on gameplay.

[LeadAsbestos]

Frostgrave is pretty fun, but, at only 4 games in, is already starting to get very samey. Rush guys in, cast a few spells, stuff happens, treasure, levels...    I'm enjoying finally playing something, but I'm not crazy abt it. Can't seem to get as excited abt it as all the other folks are.
Song... is a great game, esp if you want kids involved, or just want to bash some soldiers around. Not much else going on after that though.
I'm still banking on 7th Voyage to give me the game I want. Inspired me to make a few casts after reading the rules. I like how the system almost forces a story, and a good adventure is what I'm really after.

[joe5mc]

I wrote Frostgrave, so take my comments how you want:

I think it depends on what kind of game you want.  Song of Blades and Heroes allows you to set up any kind of little fight you want - so a couple of trolls versus knights, or a band of orcs versus some wood elves. It really can do just about anything so long as the numbers of figures are small. It's a great design, and perfect for small pick up kind of games.

Frostgrave is more of an RPG lite. It is focused on wizards and advancing that wizard and his warband as you play through a campaign. It uses that system as well as scenarios to take a more narrative approach to wargaming.

In truth, both games are quite inexpensive as far as wargames go. Song of Blades is only $8 so it's probably worth getting the PDF and just having a read. Frostgrave is more expensive, but it's probably the cheapest hardback wagaming book on the market. 

[The Gray Ghost]

I like Frostgrave for the wizard vs warband fights, also it's more rpgish.
but for just sword on sword fights I like SOBH better it's easier and good for bashing a lot of figures together.

[supervike]

Great input so far!!

A couple more questions, if you don't mind.  I see Song of Blades and Heroes also (and as mentioned above) has an 'ADVANCED' version.  Is that preferable to the normal version, or just cluttering up simplistic rules?

I've very intrigued by the thought of RPG lite...Especially as it would relate to storytelling, so it seems Frostgrave makes sense, but I also like the pick up skirmish.

But as joe5mc mentions, both a very inexpensive so...

[Hobgoblin]

Great input so far!!

A couple more questions, if you don't mind.  I see Song of Blades and Heroes also (and as mentioned above) has an 'ADVANCED' version.  Is that preferable to the normal version, or just cluttering up simplistic rules?

The big difference is that the advanced version introduces reactions, which makes two-player games more interactive (you can act in your opponent's turn). Some rules have been revised a bit, and there's a tendency in the example profiles towards more individualised characters. So, while an orc in SOBH might be Q4, C3, his equivalent in ASOBH might be Q4, C3, Dashing, Coward.

The other big thing is that ASOBH has a much more developed magic system. Magic-users in SOBH have two spells: a magical attack and a transfix effect. There are some variants, like necromancers and summoners, though. In ASOBH, there's a detailed magic system with lots of different spells.

I'd probably get ASOBH, as it's a newer and fresher rule-book and is probably a bit clearer. Also - it has different types of leader trait (discipline master, lead from the front, etc.), and these add a lot of flavour.

I've very intrigued by the thought of RPG lite...Especially as it would relate to storytelling, so it seems Frostgrave makes sense, but I also like the pick up skirmish.

But as joe5mc metions, both a very inexpensive so...


A very sensible approach!

[Rhelyk]

Another option is Savage Worlds Showdown, a free, light version of the RPG meant for general miniature gaming You could have sci-fi vs fantasy or of course just limit options to fantasy only, or simply call them by fantasy tropes as there's no reason "Kevlar" couldn't represent magical armor or a laser rifle a magic wand of fireball etc

https://savagepedia.wikispaces.com/Showdown!

[mcfonz]

I'd advocate for both - but as people have already said, the two are very different.

Frostgrave - in terms of an RPG, it certainly is more RPG-lite, and you will instantly seize upon that if you have played anything like DnD in the past. However, I would say that in terms of narrative and creating your own scenarios, whilst you certainly could do that, the game has been designed to include certain aspects of narrative to it. That said, we have house ruled some and it hasn't broken the game or created any issues.

SOBH - I need to get the advanced version, but from what I can tell, Andrea introduced a few things into more recent versions of the same system, such as Of Gods and Mortals (which is also inexpensive) that he then introduced to SOBH and called it 'Advanced'. Now if that is a somewhat accurate observation on my part, I would say it is an improvement upon the original. The system itself is nice and open and allows you to create a narrative of entirely your own making.

The other advantage to SOBH that I have sort of touched upon, is that there are a number of expansions and various other rule sets that use the same system. So you can get into SOBH and find you want something with more units etc in it and have a go at Of Gods and Mortals. Or decide you like the system but want laser rifles and pulse pistols and pick up Mutants and Death Ray Guns etc.

[DivisMal]

If you can afford them buy both.

Otherwise ask yourself, do you want to play after work, quick, easy and dirty with the possibility of expanding the same basic rules, which are pretty good, with an endless amount of new scenarios, settings and new rules. Take SoBH

Or do you want to meet regularly with the same bunch of people bringing the same groups of models and watch them advance (or die), i.e. a mordheimish experience? Then go for Frostgrave.

Savage World, which was brought forward, is a roleplaying game based on a tabletop. It makes for fast play and allows you to use very good sourcebooks for nearly all kind of settings. Very much recommended. Why wouldnt Ou go for it? No points values, no "real" campaign rules, no scenarios, many things are useless unless you use it as a rpg. Its basically a sandbox to design your own tabletop...

There are plenty of others, but most require specific minis, a nogo for me, or are oop. If you have the time, minis and funds, give Broadsword Adventures (very complex,very low mini count Conanesque rules), or GWs Lord of the Rings game or Age of Sigmar (blimey, yes!) a chance. They all offer different playing experiences and can easily be played with a lot of different models.

[SotF]

The big difference is that the advanced version introduces reactions, which makes two-player games more interactive (you can act in your opponent's turn). Some rules have been revised a bit, and there's a tendency in the example profiles towards more individualised characters. So, while an orc in SOBH might be Q4, C3, his equivalent in ASOBH might be Q4, C3, Dashing, Coward.

The other big thing is that ASOBH has a much more developed magic system. Magic-users in SOBH have two spells: a magical attack and a transfix effect. There are some variants, like necromancers and summoners, though. In ASOBH, there's a detailed magic system with lots of different spells.

I'd probably get ASOBH, as it's a newer and fresher rule-book and is probably a bit clearer. Also - it has different types of leader trait (discipline master, lead from the front, etc.), and these add a lot of flavour.

ASOBH is also more of a new edition of SOBH in that a lot of the additional rules are ones that originated in supplements for the original. The various caster variants originated from the different books...

[Sir_Theo]

I think there is really room in any collection for both games.  They offer a different experience and both have their own merits. 

That said the Frostgrave book is a gorgeous thing and worth picking up anyway. And the expansions have added a lot to the base game.

If you are looking at dipping your toe into fantasy skirmish games Is also recommended Relic blade. You can but the pdf of the rules and the cards very cheaply and it's a great system. That only needs two or three minis per side

[Globlin]

I'll put a vote in for Song of.. too. As the other folks in the thread have said it's great for small scale pick-up games and what I really appreciate is you can pretty much use any models you want. Frostgrave is good, but I don't think it's as open ended.

Another recommendation would be to look at Otherworld Miniatures Fantasy Skirmish rules. They're a bit more involved than SOBH, and if you go for the complete bundle kit (tokens, cards etc) they're not the cheapest. They're still a great set of rules though and again you're not limited to with regards to what models you want to use.

[hubbabubba]

All good, interesting read.

What do you people think ofvthe otherworld fantasy skirmish rules?

They're based on the 7tv rules no?