Planning My Post-45 (Mostly) Realistic Alternative Second World War in 15mm

[Ryltar Thamior]

Intro/Background [AKA: The Boring Bit] :
Many years ago as a schoolboy just starting to dabble with the realms of wargaming beyond 40k, I discovered this wonderful forum while in pursuit of inspirational material for my then-budding pulp/WWWII endeavors. Sadly, these didn't really progress beyond the building and painting of a few Panzers (the twin tyrannies of teenage finances and heading off to lead an interesting life at and after uni sort of getting in the way). But the other day, on a whim, I stopped back past this sub-forum. I'd relatively recently started cranking out 40k again, as well as more properly reading real-world materials, so it seemed like the logical thing to do.

First thing to find itself 'neath my mouse's blinking cursor was Wyrmalla's excellent Thaw of '46 thread.

Immediately, I iwas hooked. Because this represented a vision and a theme for "WWWII" which I could get into. One which didn't attempt to incorporate some of the more gauche (and overt) 'weirdness' of other settings (seemingly everybody - even Gear Krieg - seemed to insist upon German Zombies for some reason; or 'handwavium' powered super-tech which used the former to avoid answering interesting questions or making properly fleshed-out concepts; or superheroes; etc. etc. etc.) .... but instead sought to make intriguing points of distinction from 'conventional' WWII through extended timelines, and rather excellent applications of post-war military developments to the mid-1940s [seriously - what caused me to have the flutterings of 'love' for what's been achieved here was taking a look at that "Griffon" IFV and just going "yes" about how it simultaneously represented a contemporary [to us] concept, a logical development of German doctrine [following on from halftracks-with-support-weapons], and a sensible use for now-less-than-state-of-teh-art surplus AFVs in-timeline]. [Oh, I should probably add that I've done a bit of Cold War and Moderns gaming in the past, and it's always felt 'odd' to me taking the steps back in time to WWII gaming after having done so - tactics that would just be utterly ridiculous in the late 20th century become a normal thing in the middle of it.

Anyway ... enough digression. I'm back here after a decade because ...

Der Plan

Because I intend to build not one - but two - Alternative World War Two armies. One German, and one Soviet. Both using equipment which could feasibly be expected to be fielded in the mid-late 1940s presuming the conflict not only continued well after 1945 - but also that technical development had accelerated somewhat as a result. [as an additional restriction, these forces will be rather Armour-heavy - both because I haven't thought too much about late-alternate-war infantry, and because I'm bad enough at painting human-sized figures in 28mm, never mind 15!]

Now, most people would presumably be rubbing their hands with glee about all the E-Series, and Kätzchen models that have been released in recent years for something like this. But I haven't had a credit card for some years now (and am yet to look into getting Paypal operational), so I'll mostly be restricting myself to what I can actually find in physical game-stores here. "Here", being New Zealand ... which somewhat restricts the pickings.

Although fortunately, we're also home to Battlefront/Flames of War - so that'll be the first port of call. I've taken a browse through their ranges - paying particular attention to the early Cold War items available through their Six Day War line, as well as some of the "Mid-War Monsters" - and have got the beginnings of a list of purchases going.

I like to plan things out reasonably well in advance, you see.

The Soviets are going to be relatively easy to sort - the T-54 being completed and ready to go in our timeline by mid-1945, and the IS-3 rolling around in military parades by a few months later make them both somewhat auto-includes. I can also well see a role for various assault guns which were in late-war service still sticking around; and even the T-34/85 [although i'm also wondering as to other uses for the chassis]. Most of the above are even available in plastic kits!

The Germans, however, are a bit of another story. There are some potential contenders for largely unconverted or semi-converted stock models, which may either represent units which haven't had their vehicles upgraded, relatively good equipment that is still in service, or previously-flawed designs which have been modified for greater workability. Panthers and Jagdpanthers fall under the first two categories. Some varieties of tank-hunting Panzer IV derivative may fit into the first. And Tiger IIs could well be incorporated into the third.

I'm also looking forward to taking a stab at some of the more 'modern-style' IFV conversions which Wyrmalla's engaged in - albeit on a rather smaller scale, and with probably nothing like the finesse; although I'm a little hard-pressed for ideas to keep the Wehrmacht's chassies fighting on past 1945 beyond that. [one idea I was kicking around would be to take the well-known German expertise at rocketry, and extrapolate it out to developing primitive TOWs for a new breed of tank destroyer based on otherwise-obsolete Panzer IV chassis in th esame way that the real-world Bundeswehr created the Jaguar series]

So that, I guess, is

Where You Lot Come In:

I'm not hugely knowledgeable about WWII or the early Cold War - particularly on the technical side of things. I appreciate reading some of the discussions here, because it allows me to tap into your collective wisdom (and enthusiasm) for inspiration. Which, I guess, is why I'm back here after a decade rather than elsewhere.

So if you've got some ideas for what I can do with this, please don't hesitate to let me know!

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Well there is this Wikipedia item: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4

Wikipedia warnings apply.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/

[Ahistorian]

Wyrmalla has inspired me to a similar project, though its can has been kicked a little down the road. I look forward to seeing what you do, and chipping in with help where I can! Have you considered Eureka Miniatures' sci-fi Germans and Cold War minis as the basis for conversions? I believe they're in Aus - they might have a physical presence across the water.

[Wyrmalla]

Point one: see, I told you all, my stupid thread titles work! Point two: woo someone mentioned me in their thread! Point three: I have no originality, go read other people thread's before you look too closely and find out I'm a horrible fraud.

Wait, this is someone else's thread, I can't just sit here and gloat all day.And well, I've no idea how you found this site, I just typed in "Fallout miniatures" years back and found one a particular board....

I don't know much about 15mm myself, so can't be much help there. Though there tends to be much more stuff available in every scale *other* than 28mm for alternative history stuff (hell you can't even buy some of the more common stuff in 28mm these days let alone paper panzers).



Load of toss incoming:

The Soviets were years ahead of the everyone in terms of tank design. The Germans were good at making specialist stuff, but in practical terms they'd have lost out to the Soviets in the long run if it came down just to tanks. Now, that's assuming however that the German factories were being bombed day and night like in the real world, and that they didn't see the light and start making more "standard panzers". Perhaps without as much a threat of having the roof over your head blown up every day Axis weapons developers would have come out with better stuff. Regardless, if the war's ongoing then we could find the Soviets piggy backing off of German kit to a different degree. Post-war military development was heavily influenced by those German technicians who were captured - with clear nods to the prototypes which they were developing near the end. You could maybe get away with intermingling parts from German kits with Soviet tanks to show them stealing ideas, but not as wholesale as they did in real life.

The T-54 was indeed made near the end of the war, though it wouldn't hit anywhere near decent production levels for years. If they were to be issued they'd probably be done as whole units, rather than individual tanks as in real life (that's again, just my subjective opinion). T-44s were supposed to replace the T-34 prior to the Soviets realising just what they had struck upon with the T-54. A T-44s, at 15mm, is just a T-34/85 turret on a T-54 chassis. Those were prepped for service in WWII, but sat in Russia for the duration as command were scared the Allies may find out about them and exploit their developments.

That last note on secrecy's probably prudent as well. In the Cold War the Soviets didn't want the Allies to know they were on par technology wise with them, going out of their way to make "Monkey Models" (i.e. downgraded variants of their equipment) to ship to their allies when fighting the West so as to spread misinformation. In a total war situation they wouldn't have held back as much, though similarly they may have. Perhaps a way of showing this subterfuge would be to mix up parts of Cold War tanks with WWII ones (besides the T-44), or downgrade what the early Cold War stuff was armed with?

tanks-encyclopedia.com is a good website for the development of tanks. It tends to be more reliable than your typical paper panzer sites, and doesn't focus so much on the cult of the wonder waffen. Just surfing around there you can find out about all sorts of weird stuff, besides just generally how stuff progressed. Special shout out goes to their Japanese WWII tanks page, I never new they had such "modern" tank designs in WWII, but lack of resources and preparation for invasion of the home islands meant they were never fielded (and they were scrapped pretty sharpish post-war).


As you mentioned, tactics developed. On both sides by 1945 we'd seen a move away from the massed assault formation tactics of the early war towards smaller units. If manpower began to become an issue, though perhaps raw materials were still somewhat steady then making the individual soldier or vehicle more effective would be more of a priority. In my own case that involved yes the inclusion of IFVs and giving the guys rudimentary body armour and Assault Rifles. For the Soviets it'd be easy enough to use Engineer models for those, and WWI armoured Germans could also work. Bear in mind though, whilst the Germans late in the war planned to use a ton of ARs, and the Soviets loved SMGs, for decades after the war most men were armed with standard rifles. Sure the AK-47 was made during the war, though how many guys actually managed to get one outside of the elite units?



** See, this spiel had bloody paragraph breaks and everything. The next one will have page headers...


A large number of the "Paper Panzers" which people popularise, or even make it into games with fanciful history, would not have seen production. The conceit was that the manufacturing plants wanted contacts. You got contracts by promising the higher ups the world. With those they'd then put a bare bones team on the project as they used all that attention they getting to steal away more conventional vehicle orders. The E-100 was being worked on by 3 guys in a back lot by the end of the war, even if it was supposed to be a more practical Maus, that shows you just how little the engineers actually thought it would work (the British who later looked at the thing shared a similar opinion). This is all not to mention that Albert Speer wasn't afraid to cancel the more outlandish projects.

Now on that note, depending on the setting which your going for, there's always the Rudolph Hess, Rinhard Heydrich and Erwin Rommel cards. All of them were out of the game before the Allies made it to Normandy, and whilst obviously in an alt-history timeline where the war is still happening, neither would have been used to full effectiveness, they still could have some influence. Hess was a saner head than Hitler, which was probably why he was extradited from the party after trying to sign a peace treaty with Britain. Heydrich was a monster, though proved extremely effective at organising the regimes in dominated countries - with him alive there may have been more popular support for the party there (debatable). Rommel, assuming anyone listened to him, had his own plans for the war in Europe ...which would have ended with Germany signing a peace treaty as the Allies marched on Paris. Assuming that didn't happen you could play him as a more effective tactician on the Eastern Front, so even if the Germans were losing, with him they could maybe do it a bit more gracefully. * This is all based on my own personal bias obviously, and makes a lot of concessions for the political environment at the time (you could have effective military leaders working for you, though all it would take would be Hitler having a hissy fit to make them useless - thus why most alt-history settings tend to have Hitler suffer a Deus Ex Machina stroke early on)



Post-war progress on light/ medium tanks outside the E-series. Mid way through the war before the E-series came about the Germans intended to convert all non-heavy tanks over to one or two chassis (I'm not aware of the timeline myself, so one may have superseded the other). There was the Panzer III/ IV - which visually would just be the Panzer IV with a longer engine deck, and the Panzer 38 (d)  - a 38 (t) with longer tracks (but the same number of wheels) and a widened hull. There would've been standard turreted panzers, but the intent was to use them for specialist vehicles whilst the Panther took over the main battle tank role. If the E-Series did not exist, those two could be your light and medium tanks, with upgraded Panthers and Tiger IIs as the heavies (I'd keep the proper heavy tanks still in use up until the 50s like as was the case in reality before the world switched over to standard tanks like the T-54). If you can find ones on the cheap then swapping out the heavy tank's road wheels for non-interleaved ones would a good indication of their advancement (maybe even stick a Leopard turret on top of a Tiger II body with American tracks for a Tiger III - though I'm not sure if that'd show up well in the scale)..



Yes, Germany made use of plenty of rockets during the war, and again yes, they had *plans for smaller scale or vehicle mounted ones. IIRC there was one which was supposed to use the heavy tanks as a mount (Paper Panzers sell it). In anything above 15mm scale though they wouldn't see much use in a game due to the ranges however.

Germany had rudimentary ATGMs at the end of the war. They were inaccurate, but existed. I'd have stuck one on that second Panther II, though didn't have the space. Depending on the setting you're going for I'd say it'd take them 1-2 years to have something workable, then it'd be the same number of years again before the enemy had them. ATGMs are where missile/ rocket development for AFVs went in the real world. Notably post-war the West German army had their own style of Jagdpanzer, however those later had their guns removed and replaced with an ATGM mount.


** this is the point when I notice I've typed like 5 paragraphs of guff. Don't worry, I retroactively come back and put in these snitty comments which justify it.


I haven't read them myself, but the Red Gambit series may be a good piece of reading material. They're set immediately post-war in our timeline, where the Western Allies go to war with the Soviet Union, so could be somewhere to base your history. Particularly in that that'd allow you to play a German force similar to modern Germany, but with WWII era and paper panzers rather than American stuff. Not to say that's what you should do; its just one area which I don't think I've seen many people cover.

That or just search Wikipedia page on alternative history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alternate_history_fiction
Or TV tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateHistory - I don't know about you; that's how I find about about everything

I'm waffling at this point. Give me a box to stand on and I'll just go on for ages on completely OT crap... (luckily then I've moved onto a setting I know jack all about instead of my video game threads here).

[Ballardian]

I think Wymalla hit most of the buttons, one of the pleasures of Alt War/Weird War is the flexibility, depending on how much wibble you want to add. If your plan is to keep it rooted in the wars final year/s Wymalla's already mentioned all the Soviet kit (probably still largely T-34 based, with more breakthrough IS-2 batallions - but they'd probably risk their new kit, so IS-3's & even 4's - revealing their shortcomings in the process - also, as Wymalla said, early version T-54's could make an appearance), while the Germans potentially might be forced to rely more heavily on assault gun & tank destroyer fixed casemate types (so StuGs, Pj IV's & Jagdpanthers) due to their being quicker, easier, & cheaper to manufacture. The Panther would probably soldier on for another year or two, but it's likely that it'd be in the form of the Ausf F & later, with the Schmalturm (again, easier, quicker & cheaper as well as being fractionally superior ballistically - Peter Pig make a turret for 15mm) - & hopefully theyd've fixed the final drive issues. The Tiger II would probably still be going, but the concentration of resources & sheer time/expense of their constuction would probably reduce them to a trickle of replacements.
 Once you head past '46, ironically, your choices could open up, after all, something drastic would have had to have happened for the war to continue, but if you allow for the Germans to have found a way of producing the fuel they needed & reducing the effectiveness/scale of both the allied bombing campaign & the soviets numerical advantage you can start to hypothesise arms development.
 APCs/IFV's would be a natural place to start, the manpower drain on all nations (even the Soviet Union) might well prompt attempts to provide greater protection for their increasingly scarce troops. Obsolete tank types could provide a source of chassis.
 As for tanks, I'd have thought that the Germans in particular would have to bite the bullet & sanction the creation of new types - with the knowledge that biggest is no guarantee of best (this of course supposes a rationality that clearly didn't exist - to produce the eapons you needed rather than 'war-winning super whatever'). To me at least, this points to the adoption of something that fits in the E-50 slot, doesn't have to be one, but would have to tick the boxes - gun of 88 - 105 mm, armour somewhere between the Panther & the Tiger II, simplified suspension (tell the driver to bring a cushion) an engine of 900-1200hp & weighing 45-60 tons (you could substitute new plastic BF's Leopard I's). Also it's producability would be key & this would give you something that could take on anything it was likely to meet with at least a degree of confidence (& hopefully have some degree of upgadeability).
 As for models to represent stuff - well BF's stuff, especially now a lot of it's in plastic, certainly provides the raw material for conversions, but both Heer46 & Forged In Battle (part of WestWind) have some Weird War stuff which could be useful - hope that's of some use!

[Ryltar Thamior]

Oh wow. Excellent replies, gentlemen. Thank you That's what I love about good forums such as this - the way in which a question and some exploration makes for better results through such active collaboration!

Well there is this Wikipedia item: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4

Wikipedia warnings apply.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/rheinmetall-borsig-feuerlilie-fire-lilly/

Thanks for pointing that piece of kit out! I'd seen something vaaguely similar in one of my old Gear Krieg rulebooks (and, upon looking it up - it's mentioned in the "African Theater" book; functioning as a secondary weapon on a Tiger I [which makes questionable sense to me - as it's also mounting an 88, thus making it rather redundant; as noted, it'd make far more sense as a way to modernize and up-gun a lighter vehicle chassis]) - but it's great to know that there's an actual historical basis for the weapon-system in question in the form of the X-7. [although with a thousand-meter operational range, unless there were quantitative improvements in penetrative capacity over canon, it becomes perhaps a bit questionable as a vehicular-mounted weapon when compared to say a Nashorn. This doesn't, however, rule a derivative out as a Soviet-style IFV-secondary weapon; and further design improvements may have granted subsequent developments sufficient range (and accuracy at range) to make them a viable alternative to up-gunning tank-destroyer conversions. Or, if made lighter and man-portable, potentially usaable in a role analogous to a TOW-team from the later 20th century.]

Raketenjagdpanzers ahoy! [I did also consider mounting them on lighter vehicles, in a manner similar to how various real-world militaries have used wheeled vehicles such as the modern Stryker chassis, or the older Soviet BRDM platform as ATGM-carriers. If superior range were able to be delivered over standard tank cannon, then a lighter-skinned mounting platform suddenly becomes more practicable - perhaps at cheaper cost than converting a tank-chassis. There is also some precedent for the German use of armoured cars as anti-tank platforms - the Sdkfz 234/4, or the SdKfz 8 with an 88 as a bunker-buster; and also the 251/22. Guess it depends upon i) the mobility of the chassis, ii) how important durability is likely to be regarded as - which is a function of whether the weaponsystem is envisaged as operating within enemy range, and iii) and other doctrinal/ideological factors relating to force organization [i.e. what units and sorts of unit are prioritized when it comes to handing out the [expensive] fancy new toys]]

Which brings us on to the next question ... how to model them.

The most obvious way to do so would be an external launch-rail - similar to what you used to see on the old BMP-1. The disadvantage of this being the requirement to work out a way to model a rather small rocket

Another possibility would be a launch-tube (similar to many historic ATGM systems, and for that matter the one found on the BMP-2). Or, for that matter, launch-*tubes* (as, for example, we find on the BRDMs mounting Spandrels, or - for that matter - German rocket artillery).

[I did also give brief consideration to something rather more slapdash - taking GW terminator cyclone missile launchers and sticking them on  in place of a turret - but that would lead to some questionable aesthetics.]

[Ryltar Thamior]

Wyrmalla has inspired me to a similar project, though its can has been kicked a little down the road. I look forward to seeing what you do, and chipping in with help where I can! Have you considered Eureka Miniatures' sci-fi Germans and Cold War minis as the basis for conversions? I believe they're in Aus - they might have a physical presence across the water.

Thanks for the input I've never seen Eureka in-stores here (possibly because the population density of the average NZ city tends to militate against actual wargaming shops - most of them have closed down or 'diversified' into becoming more generic geek-culture hotspots in pursuit of the anime-dollar, over the last few years :/ ) ... but I'm presuming that these are the chaps you mean? http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_102_107&sort=3a They definitely look interesting.

I do need to do some actual thinking about what I'm wanting to do with the German infantry here. As has been pointed out in Wyrmalla's excellent response [which I'm just about to read again and reply to], by this stage in a hypothetical extended-conflict, a prime German consideration would be making greater use of comparatively limited supplies of manpower. The body-armour on the Eureka figs would definitely convey one of the force-multipliers he's mentioned [as well as potentially some advancements in weapon-design, although I do note that some of the squad-support weapons do appear to veer on the "sci fi" side of things ]

Interestingly enough, one of the alternatives I was actually considering for German infantry were the US infantry which Battlefront have released for their Team Yankee Cold War range. The main rationale for this was the overt resemblance of the PASGT US helmet to the German Stahlhem; although the obvious differences in weaponry (even at 15mm) rendered this somewaht impracticable.

In any case, I suspect Wyrmalla has the right of it in what he's done with his thread - infantry units being a 'mixed bag' of older-style rifles, newer-style assault weaponry .. and the ever-present support weapons and anti-tank goodies. Which requires me to start to think about what shape German man-portable AT might have taken at this point. Gosh, I love how answers lead on to further quetsions

[another option as applies body-armour may be for me to attempt to break out the greenstuff to up-armour infantry myself - although working in 15mm might be asking for trouble]

[Adam]

Interestingly enough, one of the alternatives I was actually considering for German infantry were the US infantry which Battlefront have released for their Team Yankee Cold War range. The main rationale for this was the overt resemblance of the PASGT US helmet to the German Stahlhem; although the obvious differences in weaponry (even at 15mm) rendered this somewaht impracticable.

Have you thought about using the new East germans? The East German helmet was, I believe, actually a ww2 German design that was never adopted during the war. The AK47s would probably pass for STG44s at 15mm

[Ahistorian]

I plan to do very simple body armour using GW liquid greenstuff on the torsos to smooth out jacket folds, then maybe adding shoulder pauldrons for forward or assault units. 15mm hides a multitude of sins  The Eureka guys I am saving for elite reserves.

Have you considered using Battlefront Germans with their updated MGs and Peter Pig headswaps? The pins make it super-easy. Adam also made a good point while I was typing.

Of course, not being comfortable painting Nazis, and barely more OK with Stalinist Communists, I have made the alt-history decision to pit the Dominion against the Directorate. I will mostly just be changing logos though, and trying to keep things as near-real as possible (except for the odd mutated ape...).

[Ryltar Thamior]

Right. Now we come to the heavy-lifting. Responding to Wyrmalla's essay-length excellent contribution to the thread

I did check out the Beyond the Sprues thread you cited as inspiration. Just pretty much sat there with my pupils dilating for a good hour or so slowly clicking through and feeling my mind boggle. But my further attempts to track down more material of a similar nature [such as, for instance, some of the timelines this guy's building stuff for - or other people doing the whole "Alternative History AFV" thing] didn't exactly turn up too much gold. One of the reasons I'm excited to correspond with other people on the same buzz as I am - who've evidently ALREADY done some pretty stellar research/magpieing - is that it means I get to draw upon your reference-points as well, without necessarily having to spend hours duplicating your work in tracking down the resources in question.

So, in short, if you've got any other superlative inspiration-sources that you've stumbled across ... please don't hesitate to lay them upon me. I'll attempt to do the same.

As for how I found this site ... well, like I said - I think about a decade ago when I was still in high school, I was googling for inspiration material for pulp wargaming and Weird World War II, this site turned up, and I wound up checking it out every so often when I'd think about doing hobbying other than 40k. Hadn't done so for a few years or so, then I did one day ... went straight to the WWWII subforums, as is my wont, and your one showed up first, I spent awhile poking around some of the references ... and here we are.

Now, down to brass tacks.

I think you've got the right of it (from what I remember of your thread) in terms of the 'jumping off point' which enables a longer (and more high-tech) WWII to take place. Something has to happen to remove the Western Allies from the equation fairly early on, turning the conflict into effectively one of Soviet versus Nazi across the Eastern Steppes between the Vistula and the Urals. I haven't settled on precise details (and, tbh, am perhaps rather unlikely to - although having just had my article on Subhas Chandra Bose published the other day, I am starting to have some 'sparks of inspiration' for the 'peripherals' to the tabletop conflict ... ), but those can wait. [other approaches such as removing certain personalities, or having various operations play out differently ... are a bit fiddly, and would require quite a bit of research - although WOULD potentially allow for other factions if I get bored with the Nazi-Soviet matchup]

But you're right. The 'balance' between Soviet and German armoured forces is not strictly speaking one of "numbers" versus "quality". It is also one of "numbers of /actually often really decent/ tanks, subject to occasional doctrinal/co-ordination failures" versus "technically intricate specialist kit that's occasionally not fit for purpose, or breaks down at rather inopportune moments, bulked out with rush-job attempted modernizations" [and, if we're playing stereotypes, conscripts versus veterans and aces - although this is again not necessarily accurate]

And you're totally right about the Soviets being hugely ahead with tank development. It must have come as quite a shock to the Germans encountering Soviet heavy armour on the road to Moscow. [It also occurs to me that the "siege tank" model represents a surprisingly more successful analogous development to the "infantry tank" approach of the British. Possibly due to the PEOPLE'S TRIUMPHANT PROGRESSIVE CANNON plus tracks and sloped armour approach of Soviet tank design]

Now as applies a mid-late 40s game ... in many regards, I see the Soviet technical advantage as having dissipated somewhat - being compensated for with numbers and solid design. [and, alongside that, it's potentially plausible that the German technical *disadvantage* [in terms of mechanical failures due to over-engineering etc.] might also have reduced] However something else did occur to me when looking into the Assault Gun approach. The range of what would otherwise be artillery-pieces [ex. the 152mm] would seem to outstrip German tank-cannon while still maintaining a modicum of penetrative ability. Which is great ... up until anti-tank missiles become a thing [first-generation weapons of this nature appearing to have a comparable range, presumably with much-enhanced lethality at significant range].

Also glad to see the acknowledgement of "Export" Models I used to get rather annoyed with (often American) folk who'd take the approach of Iraqi T-72s and the like being an accurate indicator of the performance of Russian T-72s in a hypothetical Cold War scenario.

Now, I'm actually quite glad for your point about the non-viability or somewaht implausible realizability (extra-paper paperness?) of various more popular hypothetical tank designs. I was aware of things like the IX etc. being basically propaganda pieces; but I'd assumed that the E-series was something that was actually being seriously developed - if rather early on in its design-cycle to actually have had tangible fruit.

But "Glad"? Of course. It means that I can do more with teh store-available Battlefront pieces, rather than feeling a large obligation to order paper panzers online.

Although it does open back up 'the field' when it comes to posing the question of what German armoured vehicle development looks like for 1946 etc. At the moment, we've got Tiger IIs with technical improvements, and the aforementioned raketjagdpanzers.

Aaaaand in the very next paragraph, he answers my implicitly posed question My first thought was wondering how, exactly one up-guns a Panther, in order to keep it 'competitive' on the late-40s battlefield. The obvious answer, of course - is the one that the Germans htemselves hit up. Adding an 8.8, in the form of a Jagdpanther (Guderian rolls his eyes). However, as we've seen with the T-54 relative to the T-44, there may be some room for an enlarged turret in order to hold the larger gun. The potential isssue with this is the comparatively narrow width of the Panther hull, as well as wondering whether the weight of a larger turret (and potential up-armouring) might over-stress the already exerted mobility systems of the Panther chassis.

And on the point about keeping 'heavy tanks' in the mix. Not only is this potentially a rather fun area of development and gaming, but it accords with the way the Germans seemed to run their ORBAT and procurement. "Finesse" or "Niche" developments, rather than mass-producing equipment more toward the 'jack of all trades' end of the spectrum. (which doesn't work out too well historically - but hey, this ain't quite "historically") And, presumably, some German chap at a review-board somewhere in this alternative timeline thinking that incorporating the next generation of Heavy Tank is as cool as we do.

Very interesting idea with the Tiger III. I'll have to take some measurements and do some thinking (re- the track-swapping to show non-interleaved wheels). YOu've now got me looking at the development history (and kits) for the Leopard I to see if it (or parts of it) might be of use. The big issue with doing one's own (somewhat less than bespoke) German tank design is that there's a somewaht distinctive 'look' to War-era German engineering (both in terms of turrets and bodies) which you just don't seem to find in post-War efforts (possibly because these tended to be collaborative efforts with other NATO/European polities and firms). I mean, looking at the American Cold War designs, like the M-48 and M-60, I'd say there are some far more obvious design continuities with American tanks of the War [and ditto for Soviet efforts for reassons preiviously discussed] than with the Germans.

Also, it's funny you mention TV Tropes ... I've found so many weeks of my earlier years heading down that particular referential rabbit-hole; and, as it happens, one of my first points of call for research for this project was the page on "Stupid Jetpack Hitler"

I know that doesn't cover/respond to all the points you raised in your post (which were pretty much all useful, by the way - and definitely enjoyable reading). But it's a start. Good use of that soap-box.

I look forward to the page-headers next time

[Ryltar Thamior]

[...]while the Germans potentially might be forced to rely more heavily on assault gun & tank destroyer fixed casemate types (so StuGs, Pj IV's & Jagdpanthers) due to their being quicker, easier, & cheaper to manufacture. The Panther would probably soldier on for another year or two, but it's likely that it'd be in the form of the Ausf F & later, with the Schmalturm (again, easier, quicker & cheaper as well as being fractionally superior ballistically - Peter Pig make a turret for 15mm) - & hopefully theyd've fixed the final drive issues. [...] but if you allow for the Germans to have found a way of producing the fuel they needed & reducing the effectiveness/scale of both the allied bombing campaign & the soviets numerical advantage you can start to hypothesise arms development.
 APCs/IFV's would be a natural place to start [...] Obsolete tank types could provide a source of chassis.
 [...] something that fits in the E-50 slot, doesn't have to be one, but would have to tick the boxes - gun of 88 - 105 mm, armour somewhere between the Panther & the Tiger II, simplified suspension (tell the driver to bring a cushion) an engine of 900-1200hp & weighing 45-60 tons (you could substitute new plastic BF's Leopard I's). [...]
 As for models to represent stuff - well BF's stuff, especially now a lot of it's in plastic, certainly provides the raw material for conversions, but both Heer46 & Forged In Battle (part of WestWind) have some Weird War stuff which could be useful - hope that's of some use!

Churr! Definitely a useful series of meditations!

Your thinking on the Soviet front definitely accords with my own. The humble T-34 would retain some usefulness in Soviet doctrine for a variety of reasons even as the aforementioned heavy tank and assault gun formations would start to assume an increased battlefield salience. Taking a look at historic production figures for the T-34's posited replacements (like the low-thousands figure for the T-44), it does seem that screening duties for the bigger guns and thicker armour might still have been a T-34's job [the hydralisks in a zergling-rush respectively]. To say nothing of infantry support duties, providing organic AT and an el-cheapo battlefield transport which brings its own fire support (an IFV which um ... isn't actually an IFV in some ways). There would also be potential to use the chassis for a variety of other non-tank roles - mobile rocket launchers, for instance.

Good point on the impending obsolescence of the Panther. As you can see from my reply to Wyrmalla immediately further up the thread, I'd done a bit of consideration for how the Panther could be kept in the fight - and it's difficult to see how it could plausibly be up-gunned while still keeping a tank configuration rather than going down the Jagdpanzer route. I'm definitely down with the idea of a preponderance of tank destroyers in German forces, as it makes logical sense to try to counter Soviet numbers with additoinal mobile-cannon barrels of their own made from quickie-conversions from otherwise obsolete chassies. And, as I've said further up, the whole raketjagdpanzer idea is additionally useful as a development of hte concept. Fully agree about the IFV usage for old chassies and turrets as well - indeed, it was the design which did eactly thatfrom that chap from Beyond The Sprues (as found by Wyrmalla) which inspired me to start thinking about all this in the first place.

I think somebody mooted a similar sort of conversion for a T-34 based around shifting the engine block to the front (or jus straight-up reversing the hull), so there is some potential for a Russian APCprogramme as well.

Good comments on the potential design characteristics of a hypothetical 'replacement' medium tank. And I'd previously seen the Heer46 kits when browsing Agis' wonderful site as research, but they'd slipped my mind - so thanks very muchly for the reminder! As applies the Battlefront plastics - yup, one reason why I'm going with with them, because I figured alterations would be much easier than working with resin/metal when converting IFVs; although on the topic of the Leopard I, I've talked in a comment a few up about my sideways looking at using mid-Cold War German vehicles to represent late-40s German engineering due to aesthetic/technical differences, but it's certainly an avenue to explore.

I'm taking a look through the Forged in Battle catalogue now. I now see what you mean about the Schmalturm turret with an 8.8 as a way to modernize the Panther. I suppose the next question is wondering how to easily convert one from the materials at hand in-country rather than ordering in.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Has definitely helped clarify my thinking in some areas.

[Ryltar Thamior]

Have you thought about using the new East germans? The East German helmet was, I believe, actually a ww2 German design that was never adopted during the war. The AK47s would probably pass for STG44s at 15mm

Funnily enough, I happened across that connection earlier this evening while stumbling through Wikipedia. My first question was wondering why it didn't go into production. (and I'm a little sketch about the aesthetic) But you're definitely right about the potential plausibility of using an early Soviet assault rifle as a stand-in for a subsequent German design.

I plan to do very simple body armour using GW liquid greenstuff on the torsos to smooth out jacket folds, then maybe adding shoulder pauldrons for forward or assault units. 15mm hides a multitude of sins   The Eureka guys I am saving for elite reserves.

Have you considered using Battlefront Germans with their updated MGs and Peter Pig headswaps? The pins make it super-easy. [...]

I'd be very interested to see how you get on trying that (the liquid greenstuff bodyarmour, I mean) - saves me the "am-I-going-to-screw-it-up" anxieties of prototyping such a conversion myself.

As applies headswaps ... I previously wasn't aware that Peter Pig had a separate head line. Amusingly (or not) the faces appear to be rather better than the actual Battlefront ones. Might be quite fiddly for my amateur skills in this scale, but would certainly open up a wealth of possibilities!

[Ballardian]

Glad my ramble was of some use - as to whether the Leopard I fits visually, how about this?
 (The plastics are cheap enough that the experimentation is worth a go.) The problem with attempting to up-gun the Panther is mainly weight - the tank (originally destined to be 35 tons or so) ended up topping out at 45 tons, all without the necessary re-design of the power train. This meant that the expected working life of the final drive (the gear system in the front transmission housing) was as little as 90 miles before expected failure (this was also true of the very first production Tiger II's & though they fixed it here, they never did in the Panther's entire production run). Despite this, the Panther was supposed to be a mass produced vehicle, entirely unlike the 'boutique' Tiger & Tiger II & demonstrated in the 6000+ production figures.
This is why a new tank makes sense, with a 'rationalised' design (& why it wasn't going to happen in the Reich's labyrinthine system of patronage & 'you scratch my back...' politics) was essential if they were going to compete.
The pic below is a putative collision of the Panther & Leopard ideas, while the running gear/suspension owes more to the Leopard, the hull shape is definately WWII (the site is paperpanzer.com, all 1/35 & 1/48, but excellent eye candy).

[Ahistorian]

I think you've got the right of it (from what I remember of your thread) in terms of the 'jumping off point' which enables a longer (and more high-tech) WWII to take place. Something has to happen to remove the Western Allies from the equation fairly early on, turning the conflict into effectively one of Soviet versus Nazi across the Eastern Steppes between the Vistula and the Urals. I haven't settled on precise details (and, tbh, am perhaps rather unlikely to - although having just had my article on Subhas Chandra Bose published the other day, I am starting to have some 'sparks of inspiration' for the 'peripherals' to the tabletop conflict ... ), but those can wait. [other approaches such as removing certain personalities, or having various operations play out differently ... are a bit fiddly, and would require quite a bit of research - although WOULD potentially allow for other factions if I get bored with the Nazi-Soviet matchup]

The rough draft for my alternate history has Edward Windsor never meeting Wallis Simpson and therefore being free to act as pro-German as he wanted to on the throne. As the king's petty fascism trickles downwards into the country, the heart of empire is seized with a certain parochial Little Englander-ness. When the Winter War kicks off, France and Britain agree to (as planned in Timeline-1) send troops to defend the Finns against the resurgent menace of Communism - defensively, not willing to pour lives and treasure into the Muscovite wastes. With this concrete assistance in the war on Communism, Hitler doesn't invade France, but concentrates on his Lebensraum, feeling no need to go west to defend his rear. I haven't decided what happens to Poland yet, but they could form an anti-Communist alliance as suggested by one counter-factual "historian", whose name escapes me.

With no great tension between the UK and Germany, Churchill doesn't get into power. Italy keeps trying to flex its muscle in the Mediterranean, and gets a bloody nose from France and Britain. Germany helps out their fellow fascists, and peace rapidly re-descends as the Brits and French carve up Italy's African possessions in exchange for giving them a free hand in the Balkans. With no sustained conflict, there is no Lend-Lease, and no real American involvement. There are no RAF or USAF air-raids on German industry. The war in the Pacific plays out entirely separately, and just as viciously. The League of Nations crumbles, the race wars of the Eastern Front and the actual East burn on (like in Timeline-1), but without two stark choices, most of the rest of the world stays well out of it. Like the Phony War and the Sino-Japanese War of Timeline-1, the Steppe War, Winter War and Pacific Wars are considered separately, never merging into World War Two.

And Hitler doesn't have a stroke. He chokes on some raw carrot and no-one bothers to unblock his airways.

I'd be very interested to see how you get on trying that (the liquid greenstuff bodyarmour, I mean) - saves me the "am-I-going-to-screw-it-up" anxieties of prototyping such a conversion myself.

As applies headswaps ... I previously wasn't aware that Peter Pig had a separate head line. Amusingly (or not) the faces appear to be rather better than the actual Battlefront ones. Might be quite fiddly for my amateur skills in this scale, but would certainly open up a wealth of possibilities!

I will report back when I've done it - it might be a while though, as I have a Star Wars demo game to finish putting together in the next fortnight. The heads worried me to begin with, but I can't emphasise how simple they are to use with just a scalpel and a hand powered modelling drill. I thoroughly recommend them, and own probably 100s by now.

[Ryltar Thamior]

This is why a new tank makes sense, with a 'rationalised' design (& why it wasn't going to happen in the Reich's labyrinthine system of patronage & 'you scratch my back...' politics) was essential if they were going to compete.
The pic below is a putative collision of the Panther & Leopard ideas, while the running gear/suspension owes more to the Leopard, the hull shape is definately WWII (the site is paperpanzer.com, all 1/35 & 1/48, but excellent eye candy).

Excellent picture that it is. I did see somebody else's conversion which pretty much entailed putting a King Tiger turret on a Panther. This would certainly accomplish an easy up-gunning - but GOOD GRIEF such a thing would be overburdened weight-wise! [and, in fact, the chap who built it made oblique reference to that fact]

I will report back when I've done it - it might be a while though, as I have a Star Wars demo game to finish putting together in the next fortnight. The heads worried me to begin with, but I can't emphasise how simple they are to use with just a scalpel and a hand powered modelling drill. I thoroughly recommend them, and own probably 100s by now.

Interesting timeline tweaks. And I look forward to the report.