Planning My Post-45 (Mostly) Realistic Alternative Second World War in 15mm

[Ryltar Thamior]

Right, now lest anybody think that there's only 'paper' to this paper-panzer-inspired project ... I made the pilgrimage to the local gamesstore this evening in pursuit of some IS-3s [or, failing that, some T-54s] from the FoW Arab-Israeli conflict line, and some manner of German Big-Cats with which to oppose them.

I came back empty handed. Turns out they'd sold off most of their [other] Flames of War bits and pieces at a discount a few weeks prior in preparation for clearing shelf-space for Team Yankee. I can't say I fault their logic - everybody in the local area who's going to be buying WWII miniatures probably has almost enough to last a lifetime by now after the previous decade and a half ... while Cold War armour is a comparatively new and novel thing around here.

But yeah. Lil annoying. Guess I might have them place an order for me.

In the mean-time ... they DO now carry this "TANKS" line that everybody seems to be talking about. I had a brief look at the plastics. Not too bad. Although I still do like the reassuring bulk of resin and metal, these'll at least be easier to convert. [looking chiefly at the Panther/Jagdpanther kit - although I did note they had the IS-2 in stock, for Soviet opposition] Pity that it works out $25 more expensive buying five of those versus the actual plastic Panther troop. But oh well.

Having now had a look at hte sprues I'll be working with, two questions immediately sprang to mind. The rear engine assembly being a separate piece is quite handy for the IFV conversion talked about earlier; which leaves me wondering how to remodel both the real engine deck as a fighting compartment - and, as the corolllary to that, working out where the engine goes instead.

The most logical answers to that would be either forward, directly adjacent to the driver [also where one of the Marder iterations has its one), by eliminating hte bow hull machine gun; or somewhere 'amidships' - thus separating out the crew compartment to the front, and the fighting compartment to the rear.

Now, speaking of Marders ... it did seem a bit interesting, looking at the lines of the kit, how similar in some ways it seems to some of the hypothetical apc designs online afficionados have cranked out for the Germans.

The next step [of research - model-buying also needs to be happening] is colour-schemes. I've seen the same hypothetical late-45 colour scheme a few places, and I'm trying to track down any others.

[Ballardian]

The 'Tanks' minis are in fact the BF plastics sold seperately (the game is also a fun little 'pick-up' sort of thing) & you're right, if you want a troop or platoon the bigger BF boxes are a much better way to go (as they also include decals & crew, which the 'Tanks' blisters don't).
 Again, you're right that the engines on the 'paper' apc's/ifv's are front mounted, usually placed where the bowgunner/radio operator would have been, which'll involve cutting up the deck of your chosen steed (you're going to need some plasticard in a couple of thicknesses, 1mm & .5mm are a good starting point & usually pretty cheap & easy to find in your nearest art supply shop - Evergreen is a common brand). Wymalla's Griffon kitbash provides a good basis for any conversion ideas, air intakes (using those from the BF kit) on the right hull front, with the rear of the hull giving you a blank canvas for hatches etc.
 I think the hypothetical ifv you're refering to was the 'Buffel', based on an E-50 chassis - completely fake but looks the part, they just stuck a Marder hull on the E-50 chassis & WWII-ified it (they also did the same for an imaginary E-100 version).
 You can really have fun with the colour schemes, as wilder forms of camo abounded by the actual wars end, with both Rotbraun & Olivegrun/Resedegrun often replacing the more standard Dunklegelb as a base colour. Neil Burt's 'Troop Of Shrew' site, particularly the Flickr picture vault (flickr.com/photos/troop-of-shewe/sets/) has plenty of beautifully painted minis (28 & 15mm) including post '45 stuff.
 I've also found the AK Interactive '1945 German Colors' Camouflage Profile Guide useful (Mig's 'Painting Wargames Tanks' is another useful title & focuses on 15mm - though only has a little post '45 stuff). The 'Heresy Brush' blog ( heresybrush.com Reuben Tarragosa's site) is also a useful source.
   Hope that's of some use!

[Wyrmalla]

Tsk, I seen the walls of text in thread, but have been avoiding it as a I tend to only jump on here during breaks at work. 

For IFVs there’s a couple of options for conversions:

-   Easiest, and probably the most common, reverse the hull so the engine’s at the front and the transport compartment is where the driver used to sit. I did the same thing with the T-34 APC I made in my own thread.

-   Turn the engine sideways, and either keep it at the back and have an entrance tunnel beside it, or mount it at the front and have the drive on the other side. This involves more work, and makes the area beside the engine quite cramped, though its a method used around that period (Katzchen, M10, Achzarit)

-   Leave the engine where it is and increase the size of the crew compartment to accommodate the men. An ad-hoc method which typically prevents a door being fitted (the men existing via roof hatches). This’d also result in a higher profile. I’m not sure if any “modern” APCs have used this method at all.

At 15mm scale I’d just take an existing tank and add a new top deck and a rear door. Bothering with being concerned about the internal layout and where the vents should be shouldn’t matter too much as the models are fairly small.

Post war developments typically used American hulls, though we did see one Swedish APC based on the 38 (t), besides also some interim German ones before the Marder took over which sort of had a WWII style. Tanks Encyclopedia has articles.

As Ballardian said though, AFVs based on the E-Series may be the most feasible. The Germans would have converted over any older vehicles to specialist stuff, or scrapped them, which does have the potential for AFVs (similar to the Israelis turning T-54s into Achzarit). Both the 38 (t) and Panther were considered for the Katzchen project for one, as have I considered turning a Tiger II into the basis for a power armoured unit’s AFV (…till I used that model for a Jagdtiger II). Frankly anything could work if you use the justification that they’re field prototypes, or only saw limited run (perhaps being a project that was sub-contracted to a smaller firm to bolster overall AFV production?).



As for ATGMs. They're expensive... For the period maybe having a big gun to back them up for when they careen off into a barn would be a good idea. ...Practically though I'd imagine that the Germans would have done what they did post war and convert their Jagdpanzers over so they got rid of their guns and carried an ATGM system. If I can be bothered I'll probably do the same thing eventually (Bolt Action does have some rules which could be converted over easily enough).

[Ryltar Thamior]

Small update from me: TANKS Battlefront Panther kit picked up for evaluation purposes; and everything else for initial phase placed on order through FLGS. In specia, 3x Konigtigers, 5x Panthers, 6x SdKfz 234s, and an 'assault rifle platoon' [2 squads with StG44s, 1 squad with rifles and MG42s, plus platoon command and panzerfausts].

Objective with this purchase (when it actually turns up) is pretty straightforward - three heavy tanks, and up to six transports [whether the "Griffon" IFV that's turned up both here and on BeyondTheSprues, by using the 234/1 or 234/2 turrets; or a lighter and unturreted APC version in the mode of the Kangaroo - a "Katzschen II", perhaps?].

Next issue is to work out plausible transport capacities, and organize squads on that basis.

And, once they're in-hand, the greenstuff adding for bodyarmour on the Panzergrenadiers.

That is also when the interesting doctrinal questions start to percolate. I have heard it said that Heer modus operandi for much of the War was effectively to have riflemen act as support for the squad's machine guns. Which makes a certain amount of sense when high-volume fire at range is more effectively derived from the latter than the former.

But the calculation changes somewhat when i) the squad's standard weapon is an assault rifle (with an effective maximum range of half a kilometer, and an increased rate of fire) rather than a more 'archaic' long-arm; ii) in addition to squad support weapons (not that they are necessarily conceived of in that role), there is also far heavier vehicle-mounted autocannon almost constantly present with squad.

I'm also thinking about what to do with the more conventionally equipped rifle-squad. It would be possible to simplyy state that as in history, StG44 production was not sufficient to unilaterally roll it out, with instead only a certain number of squads per company being llucky enough to benefit from the upgrade. Alternative is perhaps more interesting - reconstruing platoon as having two 'maneuver'/assault elements, with an anchoring fire support element that is itself somewhat more mobile (and numerous) than a mere MG team.

Next steps once this lot're underway will be considering other elements for expansion: there are clear gaps in long-range AT assets [KonigTigers notwithstanding], and artillery. Previously discussed Raketjagdpanzer approach may do for the former [and/or ATGM teams of infantry]; while the latter has a number of potential options - including the construction of FO vehicle for spotter team.

Again, you're right that the engines on the 'paper' apc's/ifv's are front mounted, usually placed where the bowgunner/radio operator would have been, which'll involve cutting up the deck of your chosen steed (you're going to need some plasticard in a couple of thicknesses, 1mm & .5mm are a good starting point & usually pretty cheap & easy to find in your nearest art supply shop - Evergreen is a common brand). Wymalla's Griffon kitbash provides a good basis for any conversion ideas, air intakes (using those from the BF kit) on the right hull front, with the rear of the hull giving you a blank canvas for hatches etc.
 I think the hypothetical ifv you're refering to was the 'Buffel', based on an E-50 chassis - completely fake but looks the part, they just stuck a Marder hull on the E-50 chassis & WWII-ified it (they also did the same for an imaginary E-100 version).
 You can really have fun with the colour schemes, as wilder forms of camo abounded by the actual wars end, with both Rotbraun & Olivegrun/Resedegrun often replacing the more standard Dunklegelb as a base colour. Neil Burt's 'Troop Of Shrew' site, particularly the Flickr picture vault (flickr.com/photos/troop-of-shewe/sets/) has plenty of beautifully painted minis (28 & 15mm) including post '45 stuff.
 I've also found the AK Interactive '1945 German Colors' Camouflage Profile Guide useful (Mig's 'Painting Wargames Tanks' is another useful title & focuses on 15mm - though only has a little post '45 stuff). The 'Heresy Brush' blog ( heresybrush.com Reuben Tarragosa's site) is also a useful source.
   Hope that's of some use!

Thanks for stirling advice, particularly on paint Shrewe was actually one of my first ports of call for research, and it's there that I noted this hypothetical late/post-war camo pattern that I enquired about, and which you've reproduced in the attached image.

Interesting points about the Buffel - may wind up investigating whether a FoW Marder kit (inexplicably identified as the "Marder 2") can be mated up with a WWII era track unit from Battlefront's range [E-50s therefore being somewhat out of the question for the moment] - although given the Panther's probably a bit longer, and the Panzer IV's rather shorter, I'm not sure how that'll work out in practice.

For IFVs there’s a couple of options for conversions:

-   Easiest, and probably the most common, reverse the hull so the engine’s at the front and the transport compartment is where the driver used to sit. I did the same thing with the T-34 APC I made in my own thread.

-   Turn the engine sideways, and either keep it at the back and have an entrance tunnel beside it, or mount it at the front and have the drive on the other side. This involves more work, and makes the area beside the engine quite cramped, though its a method used around that period (Katzchen, M10, Achzarit)

-   Leave the engine where it is and increase the size of the crew compartment to accommodate the men. An ad-hoc method which typically prevents a door being fitted (the men existing via roof hatches). This’d also result in a higher profile. I’m not sure if any “modern” APCs have used this method at all.

At 15mm scale I’d just take an existing tank and add a new top deck and a rear door. Bothering with being concerned about the internal layout and where the vents should be shouldn’t matter too much as the models are fairly small.

Thanks, as per usual, for excellent input My preference is for the second option suggested, and looking at the test-sprue I've aqcuired, this doesn't appear too hard to achieve [my only question, from those more mechanically gifted than I, is whether this is realistically feasible, turning an engine on its side sort of thing - this may be a dumb quetion on my part].

Although an additional idea I idly played with was to simply have hte engine moved forward to the front, and the driver operate via vision blocks rather than direct line of sight. [so differing from your T-34 APC idea by not raising hte profile of the resultant vehicle to compensate]

And then, out of hte blue, my eye happened to cast itself upon somebody's vision for a Geshutzwagen Tiger II [a historical vehicle which, while prototyped, never actually made it beyond a single unit] - at which point I noticed that in order to make room for the rather massive artillery at the rear of the vehicle, the engine block had been moved up 'amidships', drastically reducing the space for both driver and bow machine-gun operator, and leaving them exiting via roof-hatches by bisecting the vehicle.



Not something I'll probably pursue for these Panther-derived IFVs, of course - but an interesting (quasi)historical footnote on German AFV design which may prove relevant for the future. Particularly as my further researches into the subject appear to indicate that one of the more notable issues of the Panther was the fact it was excessively 'nose-heavy' - something which adding a honking great engine to the forward compartment is hardly going to counteract And of potentially great relevance on the unsteady ground of hte Eastern Front.

Anyway, I look forward to this stuff turning up so I can finally get cracking.

[Ballardian]

Good to hear that the project is progressing & glad to have been of some help - don't forget, lots of progress pics or it didn't happen

[Ahistorian]

That is also when the interesting doctrinal questions start to percolate. I have heard it said that Heer modus operandi for much of the War was effectively to have riflemen act as support for the squad's machine guns. Which makes a certain amount of sense when high-volume fire at range is more effectively derived from the latter than the former.

But the calculation changes somewhat when i) the squad's standard weapon is an assault rifle (with an effective maximum range of half a kilometer, and an increased rate of fire) rather than a more 'archaic' long-arm; ii) in addition to squad support weapons (not that they are necessarily conceived of in that role), there is also far heavier vehicle-mounted autocannon almost constantly present with squad.

I'm also thinking about what to do with the more conventionally equipped rifle-squad. It would be possible to simplyy state that as in history, StG44 production was not sufficient to unilaterally roll it out, with instead only a certain number of squads per company being llucky enough to benefit from the upgrade. Alternative is perhaps more interesting - reconstruing platoon as having two 'maneuver'/assault elements, with an anchoring fire support element that is itself somewhat more mobile (and numerous) than a mere MG team.

The Finns did something similar with LMG/SMG sections, if I recall correctly - it might be worth a look. Cross-pollination of "jaeger" concepts between two Germanic militaries sounds plausible enough to me.

[Ryltar Thamior]

So just to prove I'm still keeping things ticking over ... these turned up at the FLGS for me not so long ago [just went in and picked them up today]. I'm still waiting on the Bengal Tigers I ordered, but with what's here, there ought to be enough to construct 5 IFVs, several recon/support vehicles, and three squads of sturmgewehr 44 armed infantry [who may wind up with various forms of body-armour].

Not a bad start


Now I just have to go back through all my notes and what not and work out how to construct and convert 'em.

[Ballardian]

I look forward to pics of your progress, good luck with the project.

[carlos marighela]

The so-called 'monkey model'is a myth and one that can largely be ascribed to the ramblings of one 'Viktor Suvorov'. Soviet export models were usually simplified to the extent that their clients could afford, manufacture or maintain them not as some sort of grand deception plan. That is when they were simplified at all.

T-44 is as likely a contender as the T-54 and provides a more distinctive look, albeit it's a tank lacking off the shelf kits in most scales. Kitbash with a T-54 hull and a T-34 turret for an approximation.

[Ryltar Thamior]

Thanks for the advice Wasn't aware of the T-44 and having looked into it a bit, I guess it makes sense that they'd be employed in this timeframe; although I do also note the historical circumstance of the first iteration not being given a serious look-in due ot the T-34/85 being a thing by that point. Which would mean in order to offer a meaningful advantage over simply having more T-34/85s, up-gunning to the 100mm would be called for - as, of course, a subsequent round of T-44 prototypes appears to have done.

You'd think, given their seeming obsession with putting out kits for all manner of rather less-used stuff that Battlefront [my prime source of miniatures at this point] would have done one ... but nope, despite having done a T-43 for some reason [which i'm not even sure actually ever saw combat or left the prototype stages] ... no T-44s.

Will keep in mind the T-54 hull with T-34-ish turret [larger gun perhaps permitting].

Although additionally to my annoyance, I see Battlefront's now taken off their website the 'Fate of a Nation' Arab armour that I'd been banking on using for much of my 'less-traditional-history-complient' Soviet Armour [i.e. the IS-3s I think I recall them having, and the actual T-54s].

Still, the Team Yankee range still appeasr to have T-55s .. so that's uh .. something I guess, with appropriate research for how to dial them back about twenty years or whathaveyou

And I suppose there's always just the option in the interim of doing boatloads of 'conventional' Soviet armour - massed ranks of T-34s, and otherwise still perfectly viable IS-2s [I mean it's not like that lovely 122mm gun goes out of style, as seen on its successor model ]; accompanied by siege-guns.

[Ryltar Thamior]

And in any case, there's Germans to be done first!



Starting with this lovely piece of German/Kiwi/Malaysian engineering. I must say, with 40k's transfer over to all-plastic slash rather annoying "resin" ... I'd fully forgotten just how 'reassuring' it feels to hold a properly weighted metal [and denser resin] miniature. Feels ,, hefty!



Now, I'm pretty sure that the metal 88mm guns supplied with the kit were, in fact, intended for the Porsche turret version Battlefront also does, rather than the Henschel turrets the three I've picked up were supplied with. But with a bit of cutting down, they fit in and look decent.



I guess we've now moved from the Panzers not even being 'paper' ones into the realm of actual production for a start So that's someting. Only took me ... nine months! [in my defence, I've had an election to fight irl and something like four or five ongoing 40k logs taking up most of my hobbying efforts over that time]



I did consider the addition of an anti-tank missile [the Tiger Is in Gear Krieg's African Theater expansion have something like this, which is rather nifty - the 'justification' [other htan rule of cool] being that only something that size and with that amount of turret space or something would be able to house the requisite guidance equipment for same.]; however, the Tiger II's already quite a formidable combatant on its own, and i'm not sure quite what it would gain from having a missile system mounted which might distract/detract from firing its 88.

Now the *next* question of scourse ... is how to paint it.

I started researching German camouflage schemes employed later in the war to see if that was a decent baseline for what they might have in service in the mid-late 1940s in this timeline ... but as far as I can determine, rather than their rather distinctive looking schemes being the result of some German scientific-minded optimal disruption optics or something - in many cases, their successive efforts appear to have been motivated more by running out of first several kinds of paint, and then the pigments to appropriately colour even the paints they had left!

And in any case, the various 'ambush' schemes being mostly designed for circumstances more prevalent on the Western Front and hiding vehicles from air-detection beneath the leafy boughs of trees .. well, none of that's as relevant for the War in the East, particularly if a more 'mobile' and initiative-taking approach than the historic long-retreat and static defence lines is envisaged.

Might be interesting to try out the grey-and-ochre that this chap's gone for on his rather spiffing E-100; although perhaps in a more 'linear' fashion as you see on some Autumn camouflage from time to time.:



Open to suggestions on all fronts; and if anyone knows what's happened to those aforementioned '50s [slash late 40s] Soviet vehicles Battlefront had for their Arab-Israeli wars range and whether they'll be coming back when they re-release that era in the next year or so, that'd be further welcome insight.

[Ballardian]

 I'd probably still recommend the AK Interactive book '1945 German Colours Camoflage Profile Guide', which covers a wide range of both Western & Eastern Front schemes. It's fairly cheap & I've certainly found it useful.
 The changing base colours (olive/resedagrun or chocolate/red-brown or just primer substituted for DG) certainly did have a basis in pigment availability rather than, as you say, any 'scientific ' approach, though complex patterns in two or three colours still cropped up on both fronts  - but that's the joy of the Alt history approach, it's very flexible!

[Ballardian]

 Canfora Publishing's 'AFV PHOTO ALBUM 3 - Panther tanks and variants on Czechoslovakian territory' also has some interesting late war patterns, on actual vehicles in the field (as well as some colour plates).

[Ryltar Thamior]

Excellent resource recommendations and advice, Ballardian! Due to the four months or so i left this thread fallow i'd overlooked some of the superlative suggestions you'd made upthread. My bad. Have since taken a look at yon online materials and managed to bring up some of the contents of the AK-Interactive on le google image search.

Now, while paint hasn't yet been applied to miniatures [i'm doing a test to see if battlefront's colours go over/play nice with GW's first before i ruin anything...]



The other two King Tigers are now in an assembled state.

Although perhaps of greater interest ...



I happened to be down a local model shop, and noted this beauty. Admittedly it's in 1/144 scale rather htan 1/100 - but I guess we can rationalize it as a prototype being built in a *slightly* more sensible proportion ; or the hwole thing being downsized in the name of feasibility. The 1/144 Mauses [as in, two of them] that come with it are a bit of a larger [ahem] problem, but i'm sure we can come up with something.

Now as for why a Ratte might be turning up in what was *supposed* to be a 'more realistic' World War Two alternate thistory project ... well ... without the serious resource pressures of fighting a two-front war, and other such things, perhaps the Ratte winds up going ahead instead of being cancelled by Speer.

We'll uh .. we'll see.

One interesting potential idea an associate came up with was something along the lines of a mobile missile launcher platform [the V-series perhaps not being named for Vengeance in this timeline due to the non-involvement of the British as aggressors past a certain point] - with a goal of bombarding Soviet industry on the other side of the Urals perhaps.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Vengeance is a translation of Vergeltungs(waffe).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb

Though Google translates it as retribution.

So the Ratte does not come with a flying saucer, how disappointing.