Ottomans for The Pikeman's Lament

[Sunjester]

My copy arrived yesterday and it looks great. I really like the way officers are handled and can progress through several battles. Also the fact it's a set of rules for 17th century Europe rather than the ECW with bits stapled on.

In my collection I've got Imperialists/Swedes, Poles and Ottomans. Most of these are straight forward, but what about the Turks?

I need to come up with an army list for the Turks. Sipahis are fairly obvious, varying kinds of Gallopers and the light horse fit with the book stats for Dragoons. But what about Akincis? They are lighter cavalry, but often fought in quite an aggessive way.

Janissaries, not sure they are Commanded Shot or Forlorn Hope?

Has anyone out there given the Ottomans any thought for The Pikeman's Lament?

[Goliad]

Could you just mix and match units from Pikeman's lament and Lion Rampant?

[Dalauppror]

Hi

No you should not mix troops from LR with TPL as we adjusted some of the stats so i think the LR troop types Will have a disadvantage.

I don't know much about Ottomans/turks but from some Reading...

Akincis, i suppouse the could be Fielded as any of the cavalry troop types all depending on wich orders they got before the battle. Skirmish and harass... Dragoons or veteran dragoons.  Attack with lances... Gallopers... And so on.

Janissaries, they can Also be Fielded as different troop types all depending om weapons and the Choosen taktik for the game. I would probably field them as Forlorn hope or Agressive Forlorn Hope or maybe as Veteran Shot.

Best regards Michael

[WFGamers]

I am not a fan of the rules but the Akinci don't exist in the 17th century. They are increasingly rare after 1500 and abolished completely in the 1580's or 90's - don't remember the exact date.

[mellis1644]

I think you have it roughly right for the troops. For Akincis I'd suggest raw Trotters. They were raiders and troops of opportunity. It's not perfect but matches fairly well so is not a bad match without creating new types of troops.

P.S. Janissaries varied a lot and could be various things. They might even be a Clansmen unit if in a very melee focused mindset that day.

[Sunjester]

Thanks Dalauppror and mellis1644 for your input.

I've decided to go with the following for my Ottomans:
Sipahis of the Porte = Elite Gallopers
Feudal Sipahis = Gallopers
Better quality Delis & Tartars = Veteran Dragoons
Other Light cavalry = Raw Trotters
Janessaries = Forlorn Hope or Veteran Shot
Azab Musketeers = Shot or Commanded Shot
Balkan Musketeers = Veteran Commanded Shot
Levy Infantry = Clubmen

[WFGamers]

I nearly didn't bother replying to this and clearly you have little interest in historical battles, which is fine if that is what you want.

So this is mainly aimed for anyone interested in doing historical 17th century or later Ottomans, some of the note will apply to earlier periods.

Sipahi used a completely different tactic to Western cavalry which was kind of a mixture of skirmishing and charging in to exploit weaknesses. No Western category such as 'Galloper' and 'Trotters' is likely to get even close to what they are like.

Delis weren't usually units, although this does depend a little on the game scale you are using. They were elite bodyguards for leaders and so not usually enough of them to be a 'unit'.Personally I only use a few on my Ottoman higher command stands, so I have say 1 or 2 'generals' and 2 or 3 Delis on a base.

Tatar and other allied light cavalry, there are usually no Ottoman light cavalry, are skirmishing cavalry and again their tactics are nothing like Western categories like 'Dragoon' or 'Trotters'.

Azabs are elite marine units, usually musket armed and as far as I know always fighting on ships/naval expeditions.

Levy Infantry (along with Akinci) don't exist at this time at least usually. Akinci were abolished by foot levy still existed, as they did in Western armies. They were used as labourers and would not normally fight, usually they would be nowhere near any fighting. As in other armies untrained militia, peasants with pitchforks, etc, could turn up in a scenario but they are not a normal feature of armies at this time. Basically the Ottomans are limited by logistics to say 80,000 men. So they can turn up with 80,000 battle hardened Janissaries/sipahi/'good troops' or 80,000 ill equipped, untrained peasants who will run away the first chance they get. Guess which they chose to do?

[Marine0846]

WFGamers,

So how would you handle all the Ottoman Cav.?
I am most curious, as someday I plan to do an Ottoman army,
using Pikeman's Lament.

[WFGamers]

WFGamers,

So how would you handle all the Ottoman Cav.?
I am most curious, as someday I plan to do an Ottoman army,
using Pikeman's Lament.

Sorry I have no idea of how to do it in Pikemans Lament - not a fan of the series generally and never seen Pikemans.

What they did was use their mobility and/or firing to make a good situation then charge in. They were generally fantastic horsemen.

So if attacking frontally they would charge and try to rattle the target. Not necessarily in a line/in formation but more of a swarm in waves. If the target stood firm they would fire and dart off in a different direction. If the charge or their fire or the fire or the charge/fire of a previous group caused a gap to open in the enemy ranks then small groups would pile in to exploit it, followed by others.

If the enemy attacked they wouldn't usually stand but would do as above and retreat in front of the enemy but also try to get round the flanks of attacking unit. To do a traditional Western cavalry style charge against them was near suicidal as you were almost certain to end up in a mess and break up your formation to allow the Sipahi in, that is if it didn't get you isolated and surrounded by Sipahi. The key to success against them we standing firm in solid lines and slow coordinated advances. This is way Austrian/Imperial cavalry usually had different tactics they used against the Ottomans, typically standing and firing & slow advances even when they would charge normally against other foes.

This is of course against Western style opponents. Many of the other opponents of the Ottomans used similar tactics or at least non Western style.

No idea how you would do this in Pikemans but normally in other rules for this era it is a separate type of cavalry to any of the Western types.

[Sunjester]

Sorry I have no idea of how to do it in Pikemans Lament - not a fan of the series generally and never seen Pikemans.

Given that my title clearly says "Ottomans for The Pikeman's Lament" your comments are rather unhelpful. You are dismissive of people you don't know and a ruleset you haven't even bothered to read. This sort of rude, arrogant behaviour was the main reason I stopped visiting TMP for several years and it is a shame to see it appearing on this forum.

[Captain Blood]

Okay chaps. Think we'd better leave that one there since it seems to be heading nowhere but into an argument.