necromunda

[The Voivod]

I've played a pretty long Necromunda campaign only a few years ago and enjoyed the hell out of it.
It was new to me as Daeothar wanted to get into it again.

I used to play Gorka Morka during it's last days and found it similar enough, though really different tactics-wise.

It did suffer from some of the same problems, as mentioned here. Some models got way to powerfull.
In necromunda I ended up with an infiltrating, sprinting powerhouse Goliath gangleader, who would basicly be in you neck on turn one.
Gorka_Morka yielded me a BS-skill loaded Grot with a souped up gun that would rain havoc and everyone feared my mates gunner on his main truck.
It was all part of the game and we sure didn't take it to seriously.

The rules aren't the best I ever played. But they were fun, fast and made sense.
40k now just feels clunky and a lot of units don't feel right.

So if SWA gives me some fun, fast and logical rules that allow me to play in a universe I love, I'm happy.

[cyagen]

Necromuda did not had the opportunity to florish like Blood Bowl and turn into a pretty balance game rule system. However, you should not expect great balance and play for the fun factor.

I'm looking forward to playing SWA, especially if as I read online, you can get a game done under 2 hours...the Grimdark (tm) universe is a fun place to throw dices, so I look forward in dusting off my RT Orks and my Chaos SM/Cultists.

[Genghis]

So if SWA gives me some fun, fast and logical rules that allow me to play in a universe I love, I'm happy.

This.  I've no interest in the unwieldy beast that 40K has become, but still love the setting.

[mcfonz]

@ eilif:

Although I agree that 40k2E suited Necromunda better than 40k in a lot of ways, it is still limited by things that 40k was never designed for (like progression) as well as things that were never factored into Necromunda which were nonetheless a part of 40k (like a lack of armour/saves on models, and low wounds/toughness). Although I understand perfectly well why this is, the disparity wasn't ever really addressed in the rules mechanics.

Add to that a lot of what I'd call "legacy rules" like the to-hit mechanic (why exactly do you subtract BS from the arbitrary number 7?) and the to-wound table (needed in a game between humans only... because why?), and the game just doesn't telegraph that well once stat increases and skills start becoming more common - hence why so few games' worth of progression are needed to knock the game balance out of whack. Don't get me wrong, any game with progression and injuries will always be unbalanced over time, but in Necromunda this happens quite fast.

Anyway, I've moaned enough, apologies! Back to the original topic.

This isn't entirely true.

40k didn't have a progression system but it did have unit special rules. All Necromunda did was introduce similar rules in a system of progression.

Also, it did have armor saves - but you had to buy them. In many ways it was very much like Warhammer Quest in that sense.

It also was not as broken/unbalanced as people proclaim. I played a number of campaigns and there was never a huge issue of unbalancing, in fact, some players enjoyed being the underdog for the cap bonus. The issue we found is that if you played a campaign beyond say, 10 games, you then needed to start introducing narrative to the system to help prevent the top gangs at that point becoming ridiculously overpowered.

My experience of running Necromunda campaigns is that typically, where gangs become more powerful than others by a nearly unbridgeable gap there are two main reasons 1) the player is just very good/lucky 2) people are 'fudging' die rolls in the post game set up.

By that I mean people who don't play all of the scenarios and just go straight out gang war every time. There are scenarios deliberately designed to be more balanced and brink down the risk factor for the underdog. The old shoot out scenario was one such, people didn't like it because you didn't start with your entire gang.

Things like not becoming outlawed as well, which should be a risk, could really take the imbalance down a notch or two.

As with all campaigns that are progression based, you really need a narrative and a campaign manager - just to make sure that that ganger who reached gang leader level has had the fight with the gang leader for leadership of the gang - another factor often overlooked by players.

In this day and age, it's possible to do all of the rolls online in forums for all to see so that is a little easier to uphold.

But for me, a campaign should always have narrative - there are folk on here that have shared their campaign newsletters which really show what can be done when really investing into a narrative progression campaign.

[beefcake]

I never played a campaing with Necromunda, many one off games though (so basically kill team before kill team) I imagined that once a player reached certain heights, ie become too overpowered, then the higher tiers of the Hive saw their potential and they made their way up higher as strongarms for the top brass.

[Bloodaxe]

Campaigns shouldn't be that long. You only need 15 promethium to win.

[Elbows]

Yep, some people have finished a campaign in a single day (which is where I think the tournament stuff is aimed).  A weekend would be an easy way to run a small SWA campaign.  Personally I'll prefer Necromunda for the additional chunk, but SWA is the right direction.

What does amuse me on the 40K-based forums are the people who are reacting to certain 2nd ed. mechanics with either shock "oh, how neat!", or "oh, how awful!".  There's nothing that makes me chuckle more than people outwardly decrying to-hit modifiers or armour save modifiers as being so complex and impossible to game.    "Basic maths!  IMPOSSIBLE!"

[Bloodaxe]

I think Im going to try Eldar.   Im hoping that the extra factions get a bit more polishing and some testing before going in the reprint of the book.
The shuriken catapults dont seem right.

The basic Guardian catapult is 0-8/8-16 +1 short range
The "Superior" Avenger catapult is 0-9/9-18 no mods
Its only 1-2 inches extra and no mod.  So A Guardian hits better than a full Aspect warrior- makes no sense.
And wouldnt Eldar send Rangers anyway? Not Guardians- part time citizen soldiers.  Even Scorpions with their stealth/infiltrate seem a better choice.

[Skyven]

What does amuse me on the 40K-based forums are the people who are reacting to certain 2nd ed. mechanics with either shock "oh, how neat!", or "oh, how awful!".  There's nothing that makes me chuckle more than people outwardly decrying to-hit modifiers or armour save modifiers as being so complex and impossible to game.    "Basic maths!  IMPOSSIBLE!"

Of course, you mean Basic Arithmetic ... :-)

[Major_Gilbear]

@ mcfonz:

What I wrote is perfectly true. Suffice to say that in 40k models with special abilities/skills were mostly designed by the game creators rather than generated by players, and that armour in Necromunda is both rare and works a little differently than in 40k. But I'm tired of arguing tiny details TBH, so I'll leave it there unless there is anything genuinely new to say.


@ Elbows:

What's interesting to me is that it's a hybrid of the 2E40k and AoS rules, and that many 40k players are arguing back-and-forth over it without having played either game. I suspect that 8E will be more like SWA than not, but I guess we'll see.

As for modifiers... The (real) arguments are that it's time-consuming over the course of a whole game with loads of miniatures per side, and that it makes it hard for players to learn/remember them all. Really though, that's only true if the list of possible modifiers is huge. If the list of modifiers is more controlled however, it's actually a good simple (and quick) mechanic that's easy to grasp and retain.

[Dr Mathias]

I picked up a second box of Shadow War yesterday. I dropped into the local game store (45 minutes away) to see if they had any terrain and to pick up a squad of Skittari I had been eyeing, and the guy at the counter said "We got this new game in... apparently it's sold out". I was sort of astonished that no one had jumped on it, and he indicated the 40K crowd there had no interest. They only got in one and it sounded like their distributor sort of talked them into it. The real funny thing was I had contacted them about two weeks ago to order me one, and they never responded. Weird all around.

I'm happy they are adding Sisters and Inquisition to the mix, I haven't had the ladies on the table for almost two decades.

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Dr Mathias:

Lucky you! 

[beefcake]

I think I've decided to get the book and use my old necromunda terrain

[Dr Mathias]

@ Dr Mathias:

Lucky you! 

Lucky for my friend who wanted a copy

He just told me he called the store last week and they told him they weren't planning on getting any.

Shaking my head...

[Daeothar]

I've been a huge fan of Necromunda, ever since it came out.

I played many a campaign back in the late nineties when I was in uni. The balancing problems of high end gangs versus new ones was pretty obvious, but there were always ways around this.

We used to have a pretty large group back then, I believe around 20 players? I was there loyally every week, but there were those who missed games and then lagged behind, especially when we managed to play two games a night. Usually, there were several games going on at once, and you could either challenge a player beforehand (on ther roster), or just play whoever was available.

It was entirely possible that a gang with 2 games under its belt would face off against a veteran gang of 10 or more games. In such cases, one of the organizers or other players would GM, usually playing another gang, and more often than not that 3rd party would be kept secret until it was unleashed on the unsuspecting players (favoring the lower level player).

Those gangs usually were Spyrers, Arbites or Space Marines. But we also had zombie hordes and even an ork raid!

Secret objectives and/or triggered events were also used to great effect. Think cave-ins, sludge eruptions, radiation hazards, a rogue Genestealer or Lictor,  Giant Rats, Milliasaurs or Ripper Jacks, automated defenses etc, etc.

The goal was to have fun, and all of those games were extremely fun, also for the underdog player because of the above. And the bonusses in the after-game because of them being underdogs helped a lot of course. Especially since the league was so large.

As the Voivod mentioned; some years ago, we made a deal; I'd start a Gorka Morka force, and he'd start a Necromunda gang. We ended up only ever playing Necromunda, but those games were a lot of fun again. However, I did miss some variety, since we only had 3 gangs in our group at that time.

Still; I'd start up another campaign any time, because I find the game so enjoyable, flaws and all.

Also, I have many unfinished armies lying around for 40K, which we abandoned after 6th ed came out, so this whole Shadow Wars: Armageddon thing might just be the trigger to get those fledgling forces worked into something playable.

I was prepared to basically ignore the entire thing, as I've done with just about anything GW for many years now. Even when I was made aware of this new release. But I must admit, having now read up on some threads, having just downloaded the extra Kill Team lists, and thinking the whole thing over, I might just bite after all...