The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[nic-e]

So they're kind of like the thousand sons? Just animated armour with a bit of dust inside maybe?

maybe, i think we should get more fluff once we get more releases.

There is the new reliquary character who looks like a fantasy chaplain, with what i assume are his own old bones on the outside of his Armour ,who is meant to save peoples souls when they die so they can be reborn again. The fact that he can do this tells me they are more than just big people or at least he is (it states that they're all magic in some way) but also tells me that there is a physical body to be killed that the soul inhabits. (or he's an apothecary through the eyes of a peasant....)

[FramFramson]

Frustration, Nord, with a company that seems to have lost its way.  GW are the professionals, not one guy writing rules or sculpting minis evenings and weekends.

And a company that was good once, one which created well-beloved products and who could - in theory - once again be great and create beloved products.

[Nord]

And a company that was good once, one which created well-beloved products and who could - in theory - once again be great and create beloved products.

But words like "good" and "beloved" are purely subjective. You might not like them, but some will. I don't have a problem with that. My point is that (subjective) criticism is only aimed at this one company. There are stacks of companies out there who roll out bad sculpts, poorly put together product, pricey rubbish that gain "ooh nice", "lovely" and so on. Nobody tells them that their product looked bad 20 years ago and it's never changed.

There's a double standard applied and I don't think that's fair. To be honest, the new GW stuff doesn't grip me aesthetically, but the box set is well put together, the plastic figures are head and shoulders (pun intended) above the competition and they do produce a quality product. And the price is a bargain, it's about a £1.50 a figure, some of which are huge things. I will not be buying it myself, I'm not defending it because I like it, I'm just saying that the critiques are too one sided.

[Mason]

But words like "good" and "beloved" are purely subjective. You might not like them, but some will. I don't have a problem with that. My point is that (subjective) criticism is only aimed at this one company. There are stacks of companies out there who roll out bad sculpts, poorly put together product, pricey rubbish that gain "ooh nice", "lovely" and so on. Nobody tells them that their product looked bad 20 years ago and it's never changed.

There's a double standard applied and I don't think that's fair. To be honest, the new GW stuff doesn't grip me aesthetically, but the box set is well put together, the plastic figures are head and shoulders (pun intended) above the competition and they do produce a quality product. And the price is a bargain, it's about a £1.50 a figure, some of which are huge things. I will not be buying it myself, I'm not defending it because I like it, I'm just saying that the critiques are too one sided.

This is the GW discussion thread so it will be about peoples opinions of their products.....
 

[beefcake]

$250 for the starter if you are Southern Hemisphere.

[Tactalvanic]

But words like "good" and "beloved" are purely subjective. You might not like them, but some will. I don't have a problem with that. My point is that (subjective) criticism is only aimed at this one company. There are stacks of companies out there who roll out bad sculpts, poorly put together product, pricey rubbish that gain "ooh nice", "lovely" and so on. Nobody tells them that their product looked bad 20 years ago and it's never changed.

There's a double standard applied and I don't think that's fair. To be honest, the new GW stuff doesn't grip me aesthetically, but the box set is well put together, the plastic figures are head and shoulders (pun intended) above the competition and they do produce a quality product. And the price is a bargain, it's about a £1.50 a figure, some of which are huge things. I will not be buying it myself, I'm not defending it because I like it, I'm just saying that the critiques are too one sided.

Like with many things this is true.

Sadly I agree the aesthetics don't do it for me either, and its got SpaceMarine riddled right through it, and I have enough of those already. I await the model of Sigmar sitting on a Golden Throne..

Maybe the rules will develop well, and as said before wish them luck.

Other manufacturers also get criticism, but its not the same level, I agree, but in effect GW have had a larger influence, and impact than them, over more in this hobby than others. So a little bit extra effort and venom is applied when they do something. Liked or not.

But, there is plenty of good/bad stuff available, and some of it I like others don't. Which is good and ok as variety and differences in opinion help make the hobby more interesting.

Oh

So they're kind of like the thousand sons? Just animated armour with a bit of dust inside maybe?

No. I reckon its fluff not dust, it will likely start coming out the joints and eye sockets if they get to energetic with WarHammering things.

Expect a special Knightly order of Vacuum SigMarines - from SPACE - to help the not Chaplin bony block to gather it and geneseed souls of the fallen...

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Vermis:

I'd love to see you tackle a small Dark Elf army! I am currently painting up a lot of Chris Fitzpatrick's sculpts (modern by your standards...), but the truth is that I've always had a soft spot for Dark Elves in general. That said, a lot of the troop models were rather wonky, so I hope that you, er, "fix" them a bit as you go.


@ Nord:

I think you're being unfair. I for example have always been happy to complain about rubbish that other companies put out - just take a look at a lot of my comments of various Kickstarter efforts for a brief example.

I also find that most of my comments (even the constructive ones) are ignored. Whilst you can expect this with a massive company, it's disappointing to receive this treatment from very small companies who are actively looking for your custom. That seems to especially be the case when you gently try and ask for models that match the aesthetic offered, but which are in less "heroic" proportions; I already have loads of badly-proportioned GW models, and don't really need any more from other manufacturers.  

The problem is that the small games only really attract fans in the first place, and so the negative voices are rather drowned out or marginalised (more so than GW, who are big enough that the detractors are still enough in number to be heard).

There is also the different level of expectation of a company that has infinitely more means than it's competitors as Arlequín so rightly points out. You don't expect as much from three guys in a rented warehouse doing everything themselves as you do from a public company that employs hundreds and makes it's own plastic sprues. A great analogy of this is in the computer games industry; people heap praise on many ropey "Indy Games" that merely re-tread tired old ground, but loudly criticise triple-A releases from companies like EA. The price points in both cases also echo the the product pricing difference between GW and its competitors, which may also be another factor.


@ Arlequín:

I pretty much agree completely with all your recent comments here. In regards to changing WHFB: I think many players would have been happy with some unit consolidation, a polish of the rule mechanics and some rebalancing, an update on D6s to say D12s in order to re-introduce some variation without needing endless tables, and up-to-date plastic model options for all armies.

All of that was well within GW's scope of ability for some time, but they steadfastly refused to give their customers what they wanted. Instead they carried on messing about with trying to trick players out of money through the usual power-creep shenanigans and poor rules, and it was inevitable that players would just be driven from the game as a result.

Oddly enough, I don't think that the veteran fans of WHFB are so wrong in feeling like GW has given them the middle finger; GW senior command expects its customers to blindly lap up everything they put out and be grateful for it, and the long decline of WHFB is contrary to this expecation. Therefore AoS may be as much about as reinventing/reinvigorating an ailing game as it about the company somewhat actively divesting itself of those customers that it doesn't feel fit its requirements.

_________________________________________

I personally don't like what I've seen so far of AoS. I think the rules are pap, the Sigmarines are insipid at best, and the Warscrolls rules released for other armies are tediously droll and infantile.

However: GW have put out a well-made starter box, with technically accomplished models, at a reasonable price point. If I can find the Chaos models cheap enough on Ebay, I may be tempted by some of them to convert up for WHFB Chaos (as I still have a few slots that I never bought anything for because I hated the old models so much - plastic Marauders being a great example of hideous models that I refuse to buy).

[Constable Bertrand]

Has anyone else had a laugh that the Reaper Bones Kickstarter launched today includes...

Armour plated pallys?

I did. Well played Reaper, well played.*

Cheers
Matt

*not that I like the figures

[Vermis]

But words like "good" and "beloved" are purely subjective. You might not like them, but some will.

The thing is, GW revenues have been objectively dropping for the last couple of years. By all accounts WFB's sales had dropped far enough to relegate it to Specialist Games status if it wasn't revamped. (In fact, AoS is so different you could say WFB has died and this is a replacement more than revamp.) All the while, there were still plenty of people who thought GW make the absolute best wargaming products. The other view - disliking one or more aspects of what they do - may be subjective, but it's a subjective view that more and more people hold.

I was willing to give AoS the benefit of the doubt, but when the rules, especially those excruciating 'comedy' rules for older minis, dropped, I didn't think much of them. The fact that people here like them (gonna be honest, a single pro-AoS response on LAF means more to me than twenty pro-AoS responses on BoLS or Warseer, as biased as that is) especially people who didn't like the old rules, forces me to re-evaluate my stance; but I still have misgivings. In at least one way it feels like 40K and WFB rules, but more so: it feels like it's too much about the 'strategy', the listbuilding. Very basic rules where winning seems to depend a lot on what 'warscrolls' i.e. special rules and magic items, you can take. And you can take anything now! Unless the rumoured scenarios book limits that in a big way.

I may be wrong, but in any case I can't get too excited about AoS, even if it's free, in a world where something like Lion Rampant exists. I guess that reflects my own subjective views: I also didn't like the mass battle of WFB, a couple of simple tactics hiding behind a lot of special rules, compared to something like Mayhem or KoW, with simpler units but deeper mechanics. I have to admit, I'm still not decided about just how deep and tactical LR is, but the fact that you have to try and do what you can with simple, limited roster choices appeals more to me.

There are stacks of companies out there who roll out bad sculpts, poorly put together product, pricey rubbish that gain "ooh nice", "lovely" and so on. Nobody tells them that their product looked bad 20 years ago and it's never changed.

I think I did, a few pages ago.

(modern by your standards...)

See?

To be honest most of my fantasy collection consists of GW minis, but these days purchases are largely limited to what I can scrape off ebay for low prices. Like I said earlier, from a mass-battle army-building perspective, I think too much fantasy these days consists of well-sculpted (even over-sculpted) minis produced in tiny, expensive ranges, or relatively crude, '90's style ranges. And then there's the growing popularity of X-fantasy, which doesn't appeal to me too much either.
I can understand why all this occurs (characters vs. regiment blocks, time and effort spent sculpting vs. reward, etc.); though it's helping to convince me that 6-15mm is the true scale range for mass battles, where wibbles in sculpting, as with painting, are more forgivable and blend into the masses more easily.
I could go off at more people, on frothers-style speils, but it rarely feels good afterwards. Like people said, it's tougher to harangue a couple of guys working out if their garage. GW as the faceless corporation who shouldn't get so much wrong and never does anything so otiose as listen, is a more convenient scapegoat. I do prefer the more relaxed, friendly atmosphere on the LAF too, and just try my best to pass over things that rub me the wrong way. *coff*atlantisgoblins*coff* I also think the fact that a lot of those companies you mention only get a couple of random platypi... er, platitudes, before dropping down and off the board's first page, can speak volumes in itself.

I'd love to see you tackle a small Dark Elf army! I am currently painting up a lot of Chris Fitzpatrick's sculpts , but the truth is that I've always had a soft spot for Dark Elves in general. That said, a lot of the troop models were rather wonky, so I hope that you, er, "fix" them a bit as you go.

Ta! The older plastic DE warriors are a bit funky, on par with high elf spears and bows I think, but I'm fairly impressed with the latest dreadspear/dreadsword/darkshard set. Same as most of the current DE line. Depends if all the WFB refugees dump them for cheap or do the old ebay thing of declaring them OOP and rare. (I've seen one ebay seller say he priced his GW auctions high because he thought GW diddled him out of a lot of money with high prices and rules changes. Not us bidders' problem, squire!)
I think the only things I'd replace, if I took them at all, would be the dragon and hydra. (Nord, if you want to see me rant, strike up a discussion about Trish Carden. ) I'd go for Julie Guthrie's old Grenadier Hydra instead. Which goes to show that older sculpting isn't all bad.

I also find that most of my comments (even the constructive ones) are ignored. Whilst you can expect this with a massive company, it's disappointing to receive this treatment from very small companies who are actively looking for your custom. That seems to especially be the case when you gently try and ask for models that match the aesthetic offered, but which are in less "heroic" proportions; I already have loads of badly-proportioned GW models, and don't really need any more from other manufacturers.  

Heh! Agreed!

Has anyone else had a laugh that the Reaper Bones Kickstarter launched today includes...

Armour plated pallys?

I did. Well played Reaper, well played.*

I don't know if it's intentional, but I wouldn't blame them one bit.

[Arlequín]

@ Arlequín:

Oddly enough, I don't think that the veteran fans of WHFB are so wrong in feeling like GW has given them the middle finger; GW senior command expects its customers to blindly lap up everything they put out and be grateful for it, and the long decline of WHFB is contrary to this expecation. Therefore AoS may be as much about as reinventing/reinvigorating an ailing game as it about the company somewhat actively divesting itself of those customers that it doesn't feel fit its requirements.

I think it did too... I notice that the 'humorous' rules are confined to 'Old Armies', so the 'You can use your existing armies' line has the addendum 'if you do not mind feeling and looking stupid in the process'.

It is very much a case of 'out with the old' and if you don't buy in 'who needs you?', to my mind at least. Things in stock might shift if there is a perceived sale value to them, but yes I think their presence will be fleeting. Long term fans can say "It's not about the money, money, money..." as the song goes (and indeed 'sale' comes first, 'truth' comes later!), but let's face it, they are a company and their primary concern is profit. You can argue about 'loyal customer base' and 'new target market' as much as you like, they opted for the latter and will thrive, wither or just plod on, on that basis.                          
                                                                                           -----

I read through the rules myself out of curiosity (and who knows, ideas come from the strangest places) and I was non-nonplussed. For the most part the only way you could get any more unsophisticated would be to start shooting matchsticks out of toy cannon, which at least has some skill involved. A step up in complexity would be H.G. Wells' advanced rules in 'Little Wars' in some cases actually.


It's mainly a dice throwing exercise (so what's new?) and a UGO:IGO system in its most basic form... like Snakes and Ladders, with the 'Mysterious Landscapes' providing the snakes and ladders. Terrain is set by rolling dice... no scouting or tussle for each general to get the battlefield they want (nothing to say 'who' sets up the terrain either). 'Victory' goes in your favour if you had a starting force with a lot of models, it's last man standing, or a partial victory by just having lost a smaller percentage of your original army in terms of figures removed... there's an obvious flaw here to be exploited by 'hordes' players.

Basing doesn't matter... at least until you come to measure 'figure to figure' and find that your opponent has used a very big base to keep your troops at over 0.5" distance from the actual figure on it, so charges automatically fail. If they are within 3" of the figure they are 'locked down' however, so can only stand or retreat. Of course nobody would abuse that rule, right?

There is a good rule there all the same. The 'Sudden Death Victory' option allows an outnumbered player to win by completing a limited objective (great if you come up against the guy who has everything and intends putting it all on the table). The 'Triumph' one is fine if you play regular opponents, or trust that the stranger you're playing against actually did win his last game, wherever that was. How these will pan out after the 'Hero Phase' unleashes hell is anyone's guess.

Battleshock is quite good in principle. Medieval units fragmented bit by bit before collapsing, so this mimics that to a point. The only problem is that it is treated on a turn by turn basis, so there is no cumulative effect. So as long as you keep rolling well, you have no worries no matter what. It could work and most of the time will, but I imagine some units will be unbreakable until annihilated.

I am also all in favour of 'War Scrolls' (or unit profiles if you prefer), to provide a ready reference sheet in game, but other games do that too, so nothing new there.

Rules don't need to be complicated or lengthy to be good, but do need to offer a little more than 'roll a dice' (as most sections begin) for every aspect of the game. Even the dice rolls are not always final, as most rules offer the opportunity to re-roll one, some, or all of your bad ones.

In all there are one or two good bits I might be inclined to steal for my own use, but I can see a lot of people introducing a stack of house rules to clean up the game to their satisfaction... so there is no uniformity of play across The Hobby®.

That all being said, it is possible that the scenarios could make a huge difference and dispel all of the concerns about a lack of points. If a scenario limits the options available, then you have the balance that the points values fans are bemoaning. A basic set of scenarios is not necessarily boring and certainly not as boring as 'this is my half of the table, that is yours and we have X,000 points each' - which I gather is the normal 'scenario' for most games.
 
I suppose what you want out of your games is the most important factor though... and of course all rules are equally applicable to both players. I can see people having fun with these in a 'friendly group' or 'game partner' setting, somewhat less so if you're plagued by competitive types...

[Too Bo Coo]

Ok, I think it's safe to say that the guys at Mantic not only have a great sense of humor, but they win the internet today!

[Arlequín]

  ... you beat me to it.

[Nord]

And the statue matches their sculpting style. 

[Arlequín]

"Strike the FGM pose while rolling to hit and re-roll your lowest dice"... it was on a war scroll, I'm sure of it. Possibly one of the 'Age of Stigma' ones that cover the 'old factions'.  

[Chico]

I've now had a chance to play a game of AoS.... and long story short it was like playing with your Lego as a very young kid. You spend a few hours putting them together then spent 30mins smashing them together as they ''fight'' before your mum calls you for tea.

As joking aside you just line up and bash, it did remind me of SAGA without the Dice/Battleboard/Scenaro to keep it fresh and interesting.

It's not for me, I've now pre-ordered the new KoW2 Gamer Rulebook and while more simple then WhFB does quite  appeal to me, everything else fan I'll stick to WhFB3/RoC