Calling All History Buffs! on Muslim and Hindu Involvement in WWII

[fanfavorite]

First let me say I am planning on doing a Weird WWII game based around some classic Indian Mad Guru tropes, but I need some factual backing to manipulate first- thus my decision to post in the "actual" WWII thread. Hopefully this thread will take off (as much as it needs to) with your informative tidbits, but also any links you have to websites that DON'T sell boy scout uniforms or freely interchange terms like Fascism with National Socialism. I am not looking so much for opinion as I am events and trends that can set a stage for some pulpy two-fisted action.

First let me tell you what I know. I've been scouring the internet today and let me say it is hard to find something actually concrete, filled out, and most of all ON TOPIC for this subject.

-I am aware that the Waffen-SS had foreign conscripts, and correct me if I'm wrong these were the Waffen de SS (or something), Weapon of the SS, as opposed to THE SS. Some fun subliminal discrimination there don't ya think? I read a source that said foreign soldiers were introduced to the Wehrmacht as well, but I've seen contradictory reports. I.E. The Wehrmacht was the representation of Germany as a nation (their army anyway), and therefore should remain composed of those with German citizenship- where as the SS, being a private and most certainly political force became a sorts of Foreign Legion (offering benefits or at least escape from the negatives, such as work camps, for enlisting). Any clarity on this would be great.

-Subhas Chandra Bose (Indian and Hindu revolutionary who fought agaisnt the Commonwealth control of India- thus sided with the Axis) and Amin Al Husseini (don't know much on him, but the muslim powerhouse for recruitment for the Axis??), two interesting characters there. Full wikis on these guys so I think I'll be fine there.

Here is where you come in. If you could list all the Hindu, Muslim, and any other religious and cultural forces that made up the minority in the Second World War. Emphasis on which side these forces took, and especially any schisms within those allegiances . Also any notable forces within these cultural paradigms, regiments or "freedom" fighters that could be used directly or tweaked with a little bit to provide some good bad guys. I am not looking for in great detail the horrors of war made clear to me or even the heroics (politically motivated that is) just basic to indepth information on the make up and motivations.


For the game itself I would like to focus on India for now, any Hindus or Muslims who would of sided with the Allied Powers- but also the few that would of directly or indirectly (though their activities) aided the Axis. Also would there be anyway for the Axis powers (with a little bit of imagination) to supply these forces seemingly so far removed from the main Theaters?
-While the focus in on India, any Muslim groups in Africa or Europe would be good too (on both sides of the war), as I plan to put to use some of those awesome Artizan Afrikakorps troops, supported hopefully by ramshackle local contingents.


Anything would be great! And please feel free to go off any tangents you find yourself on; as much information whether directly or though links you feel like sharing. And while this is primarily a general WWII post with emphasis on historical events and forces for inspiration- feel free to share any good ideas for a pulpy or weird element that could be used! If not, I will make a separate post in the Weird Wars section- no problem. A preemptive thanks!


edit: forgot to mention- before we delve too deep in into the forces of India, what if any conflicts were there in that part of the world? Japan had the Pacific and we saw plenty of action in North Africa- but what about the subcontinent in between? Hopefully there was a British Presence- at least basic enough to be taken to weird extremes. Thanks!

[Galland]

Heya

First of all, when it comes to the SS, we have two parts of that organization that would be of interest, and to clarify the part that you seems to have got a bit confused.

Allgemeine SS - This is the part of the SS that did mostly security within the countrys border, also had their own research facilities, hospitals and whatnots, including handling the consentration camps.

Waffen SS - The armed parts of the SS, mainly soldiers and military police units. These did the actuall combat duties and where formed initially in smaller units under the SS-VT and later on grow to Division sized units, even armies. For instance 2SS SS Panzer Division Das Reich or 12SS Hitlerjugend. Their divisions where largely based on their army equivalents, with the same functions and support.
The reason for the added explaining name Kroatiche refers to the fact that Croatia was part of the Third Reich (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska 1941-1945). A lot of the croatians have germanic and not slavic background and ancestry, and hence was thought as a good recruiting area for the SS.

13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (Kroatische Nr. 1) consisted primarely of Bosnian muslims and some catolics and had a german officer cadre.

21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg (Albanische Nr. 1) consisted primarely of Albanians with german officers.

23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Kama (Kroatische Nr. 2) same as 13SS

The numer 23 was later given to a Netherland SS unit.

I hope this is of some help.

[cuprum]

I think you need this book:

[Galland]

Here is a bit more information, please research the various units on their own.

Arabian volunteers
Deutsch-Arabische Lehr Abteilung (Arabian Volunteers)
Deutsch-Arabisches Bataillon Nr 845 (Arab Volunteers)
Osttürkischer Waffen-Verband der SS or 1.Ostmuselmanisches SS-Regiment (Arabs, Turks and other Middle East volunteers)
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Regiment 1 (Turks volunteers)
 
Azerbaijani,Georgian and Armenians volunteers
Armenische Legion (Armenian volunteers)
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 2)(Armenians, Tatars Volunteers units)
Azerbajdjanische Legion or Kaukasisch-Mohammedanische Legion (Azerbaijani volunteers)
Sonderverband Bergmann (Georgian and Azerbaijani Volunteers)
Georgische Legion (Georgian volunteers but also included volunteers from other peoples of the region)
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Regiment 1 (Georgians volunteers)
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Regiment 2 (Armenians & Azerbaijanis)
SS-Waffengruppe Georgien (Georgian volunteers)
SS-Waffengruppe Aserbeidschan (Azeri volunteers)
SS-Waffengruppe Armenien (Armenians volunteers)
Waffen-Gruppe Aserbaijan(Azeri volunteers)
I.Sonderverband Bergmann Battalion (Georgian volunteers)
II.Sonderverband Bergmann Battalion (Azerbaijani volunteers)
 
North Caucasian volunteers
Kaukasischer-Waffen-Verband der SS or Freiwilligen Brigade Nordkaukasien (volunteers from the North Caucasus region)
Nordkaukasische Legion (volunteers from the North Caucasus region)
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Regiment 1 (North Caucasians volunteers)
SS-Waffengruppe Nordkaukasus (North Caucasian volunteers)
 
Central Asian volunteers
16 (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division (Turkestani Volunteers)
Muselmanischen SS-Division Neu-Turkistan (Turkestani volunteers)
Turkestanische Legion (volunteers from Central Asia Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkomen, Dagestanis and Chechens).
Böhler-Brigade (Turkestani volunteers)
1.Turkestanisches-Arbeits-Battalion (Turkestani volunteers)
2.Turkestanisches-Arbeits-Battalion (Turkestani volunteers)
3.Turkestanisches-Arbeits-Battalion (Turkestani volunteers)
Turkestanisches-Arbeits-Ersatz-Battalion (Turkestani volunteers)
Waffen-Gruppe Turkistan (Central Asian volunteers)
 
Tatar Volunteers SS-Waffengruppe Idel-Ural (Turkic volunteers from Volga/Ural area)
 
Kalmukian volunteers
Kalmüken Verband Dr. Doll (Kalmukian Volunteers)
Abwehrtrupp 103 (Kalmukian Volunteers)
Kalmücken-Legion or Kalmücken-Kavallerie-Korps (Kalmukian Volunteers)
 
Tatars volunteers
Waffen-Gebirgs-Brigade der SS (Tatar Nr. 1) (Tatarian Volunteers)
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr. 2)(Armenians, Tatars Volunteers units)
Wolgatatarische Legion (Volga Tatars but also of other volunteers from the region)
Tataren-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS (Crimean tatar volunteers)
Waffen-Gruppe Krim (Tatar crimean volunteers)
Schutzmannschaft Battalion (Crimean Tatar volunteers)
 
Caucasian mixed volunteers unit
Freiwilligen-Stamm-Division (Georgians, Turks, North Caucasians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis Volunteers)
Caucasian, Central Asian, Krimean and Ural mixed volunteers
 
Waffen-Gruppe Turkistan
Waffen-Gruppe Idel-Ural
Waffen-Gruppe Azerbaijan
Waffen-Gruppe Krim
 
As mentioned in my last post with two aditional unit
SS-division ”Handschar” (moslims from Croatia)
SS-divison ”Skanderbeg” (moslims from Albania)
SS-division ”Kama” (moslims from Croatia – incomplete)
SS-division ”Idel-Ural” (moslims from Russia – incomplete)

[cuprum]

A small correction.
Armenians, Georgians and Croats - Christians.
Kalmyks - Buddhists.

[Galland]

A small correction.
Armenians, Georgians and Croats - Christians.
Kalmyks - Buddhists.

Yes you are right about the Kalmyks, however, even though the Croats being primarely Catolics, they where still refered to as the above mentioned units, as I wrote, Croatia (and other areas) belonged to the Third Reich, the prefix was Croatian, even though the major part of these units where from the Balkan area and with a moslim background.

[fanfavorite]

Wow... thanks.

Never hurts to educate yourself in the act of playing games. +1 guys, and yes, that book looks juuuust right. I will get on researching these units, maybe I'll even write a paper you can grade.

[Galland]

Wow... thanks.

Never hurts to educate yourself in the act of playing games. +1 guys, and yes, that book looks juuuust right. I will get on researching these units, maybe I'll even write a paper you can grade.

I have had this as my favourite historical period since I was a small kid, and that means that I have had a considerable amount of time to study the subject, since I am about 267587265 years old, at least that what a 13 year old girl told me the other day (uncool to get owned by a friends doughter).

[Diakon]

This might not be quite what you're looking for but it is is quite interesting, The Anglo-Iraqi War (May 1941):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

[Galland]

This might not be quite what you're looking for but it is is quite interesting, The Anglo-Iraqi War (May 1941):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

Absolutely interesting reading. I cant say that I had much knowledge of this particular part of the conflict. Some intersting use of gear and equipment.

[Diakon]

Absolutely interesting reading. I cant say that I had much knowledge of this particular part of the conflict. Some intersting use of gear and equipment.

Me neither. I came across it by accident the other day. A Cockchafer (type of beetle) appeared on my balcony and I was looking for info and pics to identify it and found there had been British Navy ships named Cockchafer and one of them was instrumental in this conflict. Looking for info on one thing and finding out something completely different. Sometimes the internet is a wonderful thing. 

[fanfavorite]

Me neither. I came across it by accident the other day. A Cockchafer (type of beetle) appeared on my balcony and I was looking for info and pics to identify it and found there had been British Navy ships named Cockchafer and one of them was instrumental in this conflict. Looking for info on one thing and finding out something completely different. Sometimes the internet is a wonderful thing.  

Synchromysticism: the study of coincidences, synchronicities, connections, esoterica, symbolism and possible hidden agendas in all aspects of reality, and as by the the Buddhist concept of the universe. A spider web with infinite dew drops; we can spend spend an eternity looking to each dew drop and what is it contained within it- or merely stare into one, and in doing so the reflection of all others. Knowing all thing by truly knowing one thing.

or as Donovan put it, "everybody is a part of everything anyway/ you can have everything if you let yourself be/"

Just don't go hog wild and start connecting Hitler to the UFOs and Atlantis... the History Channel would be out of business.

[Diakon]

Synchromysticism: the study of coincidences, synchronicities, connections, esoterica, symbolism and possible hidden agendas in all aspects of reality, and as by the the Buddhist concept of the universe. A spider web with infinite dew drops; we can spend spend an eternity looking to each dew drop and what is it contained within it- or merely stare into one, and in doing so the reflection of all others. Knowing all thing by truly knowing one thing.

or as Donovan put it, "everybody is a part of everything anyway/ you can have everything if you let yourself be/"

Just don't go hog wild and start connecting Hitler to the UFOs and Atlantis... the History Channel would be out of business.

Beautiful
 

[fanfavorite]

More questions! Take a look at these Indian National Army uniforms:





do these look familiar to any nationality off the top of your heads. I assume they did not produce their own, unique, uniforms- using either British (my first guess), German(?), or my second choice, Japanese.

And to follow that up does anyone know of any suitable miniatures to use to represent these guys? There are plenty of beautiful Sikh minis out there, but it looks like for the most part these guys strayed away from the classic turban for those little caps. Even if you know of separate head sprues that match those caps that'd be great, as I could just lop and plop them on to some British/Commonwealth figures. Thanks guys.

[joroas]

As always, Osprey have a book on the Iraq 1941 era: Osprey - CAMpaign 165 Iraq1941: The battles for Basra  Habbaniya Fallujah and Baghdad