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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: dampfpanzerwagon on April 11, 2014, 09:28:30 AM
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I have just updated my Blog to include a link to a recent BBC news story about how D&D was seen as EVIL back in the 1980's.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2ah2OPd8b0Q/U0elgcWG4zI/AAAAAAAALMY/rcrKSHPU1kM/s1600/DDFantasyRoleplayingGame-redbox-780x1024.jpg)
For details go to this link;
http://dampfpanzerwagon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/the-great-1980-dungeons-dragons-panic.html
Tony
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Read the article and remember having to justify my gaming to one or two people but funnily enough never to my school teacher or local library who let me run a game in class a couple of times! However we did have a fellow gamer who was contacted by his church and stopped playing fantast games because of the content for a while!! Each to their own.
It seems people are ready to blame anything but their own failure to help their kids deal with problems - parallels between 80's D&D paranoia and similar issues with the PMRC and 80's Rock. At least I still get to listen to the latter, no chance to play D&D now lol
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I bought the first set at my local book store but they stopped carrying D&D after about a year due to parents complaining, wouldn't even order the stuff for me.
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My first set was a 'basic set' in an 'Expert box'. The FLGS, where I ended up working as a teenager, owner did not have the basic set in stock (pre-Red Box set) and so took the contents out of the Expert box and took the correct Basic items of the shelf, put them in and handed me my 'custom set' :D He even showed me, seeing my confused face trying to figure the 'crayon' out, how to mark my own dice.
By the by, I ended up getting rid of those dice after about 15 years. They were literally 'rolled round'.
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It seems people are ready to blame anything but their own failure to help their kids deal with problems
This. If you decline to be involved in large chunks of your child's life, you can't then pass judgement on what happens during your absence. I can't even imagine the pain of losing a child and can easily understand them thrashing about in their grief for someone to blame. That's just a natural part of suddenly losing a loved one.
But it doesn't excuse other people for taking it seriously and giving credence to such nonsense. D&D (other roleplay games are available) is just a work of imagination, like any fictional literary work. The only difference is that it leaves the story open to the players' imaginations.
Critics shouldn't confuse the vehicle by which the symptoms of mental disorders are manifested, with the root cause. Perhaps if the parents had been willing to share their child's interests a little more they might have been alerted to potential problems before it was too late.
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Oh yeah, I remember those times. Seems like a million years ago. Superstitious and stupid people are still around and still try to force everyone else to be like them. Rather pathetic, I'd say. Actually what I want to say is "F*** off and die, asshole!"
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Its still banned in prisons. Lets them escape being in prison you see... ;D
That can only mean one thing for me: Never go to prison....
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That can only mean one thing for me: Never go to prison....
Well no. Without D&D I just don't see the appeal.
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The thing about prisons isn't exactly correct. Some prisons ban it, others tolerate it begrudgingly as it keeps the prisoners happy and out of trouble. What they don't allow are dice, as that causes gambling problems. I lived through that panic crap in the 80's. Hell the video games that teenagers play today are more evil-themed and violent than D&D ever was! Thank you ever so much 700 Club, Jerry Falwell and the rest of the defenders of hypocrisy....
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Well, since religion was already brought up...
I was originally involved in the white box period of the OD&D game and remember, being an Evangelical Christian, more than a few times patiently talking to the members and staff of the church I attended about how the flyers (by some overwrought pastor) were misleading. ::) ??? :-[
Hell, I was a substitute Sunday School Teacher for the Nazarene church (look it up) even though I was not a member of that denomination (being Presbyterian.) I even brought some of the miniatures I used to a discussion to show them how we were talking about "toy soldiers" not idols...
My "Moment of Triumph" came when I was home sick from work during the week - I think it was aroud the day Indira Ghandi was assassinated but I could be wrong and, in boredom of daytime TV, flipped to the 700 Club show which conveniently was discussing the AD&D DM guide (Pat Robertson was supposedly quoting from it) and I just happened to have it on my over-stuffed chair where I was trying to relax. He was giving page references so I turned to those pages. Misquoted is being polite. Not wacked out interpretation of quotes but actual 'selective partial quotes' and actual misquotes to a degree that would seem intentional. Either Liar or Fool or both. I never felt too comfortable with "Mr." (I refuse to call him pastor,) Robertson anyway but that was quite enlightening as they say. Face it, no person listening that day to that show (well, except me,) would have a copy at hand to actually checking the accuracy/veracity of the speakers. They completely lacked both those elements of integrity in what they were saying.
I hammered that home the next Sunday when (as inevitable) some people brought that show up after church. I even had the DM guide in the car and offered to show them the pages and "quotes" from the show. Several people took up my offer (only one apologized but all were chastened or embarrassed - several slunk away without a word - and hopefully a bit less naively trusting of TV pastors after that.) ::) ::)
I mean, seriously, if I as a DM actually had the power to curse a player (not character, player,) with a 'mental illness' I would (being a "young adult" male) have cursed one or two of my female players (Yes, Virginia, they were hot and they did play D&D,) with Nymphomania! Not schizophrenia or depression - how useless would that be compared to Nymphomania!! Yes, that was sarcasm but there is a seed of truth/confession there.. lol
The following short article has quite a 'post-panic. view of how we Christians, as humans, approach more than D&D (sports - active or fan, etc.,) in the wrong way. IMO, Non-Christians are worse but YMMV.
http://www.russellmoore.com/2011/08/29/dungeons-and-dragons-and-doctrinal-debate/
"... it seems to me that these debates are so intense for reasons other than just fidelity to Scripture... The Dungeons and Dragons clubs came to mind because those guys, at least in my junior high school, seemed to be obsessed with something that seemed to have no relevance at all to their lives, or to anyone else’s. But D&D became their identity. Because it mattered, they mattered. This was by no means restricted to these folk, and to their video-gaming or skateboarding cousins. It’s the same phenomenon in the people for whom a sports team became a personal obsession. The win or loss of my team is a personal victory, because it is totemic of who I am."
Ego, Pride, self-justification... All those flawed human traits. Truth (and small "t" truth,) takes too often a backseat to personal agendas.
I as still an Evangelical Christian (Presbyterian flavor) and I would still play D&D if I had more time but neither the wife (who was one of my hot players) and I have the time needed to play the game well.
I will never apologize for doing something that is harmless and that I enjoy. Not D&D, not the glass of red wine with supper the doctor prescribed, and not military miniatures.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I like Glenn am an Evangelical and a Pastor who has played D&D and still own the white box edition.
Boy oh boy do I remember this period and the debates. I was given copies of "Chick" tracts and even a book "Playing With Fire". But in the end most people came to realize as I had that its JUST A GAME! The key of course was to inform and educate people so that they knew the truth and did not believe the fear mongering crusaders.
I have told young people that as Christians we do want to be aware of others and not unnecessarily offend so explain and educate. I also suggested that if it was going to cause to much division especially among a family then play some other role playing game. Our focus should be on peace and moderation (Glenn's point of anything can become an "idol") For example some folks were willing to compromise as long as the idea of "Demons" and "Chaotic evil" was not used. In fact TSR actually produced the game with out those concepts for a brief period (If my memory serves me right)
The bottom line is people often react without full knowledge and because they fear for their children. Our job is to help people be reasonable and discerning. There are things we should worry about but role playing is not one of them
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I remember late in the 'Panic' reading a study by a psycholgist (whose name escapes me now, sorry). He had come to the conclusion that the main reason the leaders of these religious movements didn't like roleplaying was because it taught players to think for themselves, and this was something they could not tolerate. To misquote the late Sam Kinison 'You won't get into heaven without my stamp of approval, so you'd better just do as I say boy!' Having had to deal with a couple of these zealots I found myself agreeing with the report.
By the way, my group never had any problems with the mainstream religions. We even hired the local Catholic girls school to hold our annual convention, althought two of the girls mentioned that a couple of the oldr nuns weren't to happy with them playing on the grounds that 'surely it was a boys game' lol
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"...demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromantics, divination and other teachings".
I'm in. Who's GMing? Seriously though, that laundry list looks like the contents on another " Player Handbook" that is quite famous...
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I remember steve jackson defending rpgs on a bbc debate in the 80s agaist some priest i think?? anybody else remeber that?? >:(
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<snip>He had come to the conclusion that the main reason the leaders of these religious movements didn't like roleplaying was because it taught players to think for themselves, and this was something they could not tolerate. <snip>
A Christian author (whose name escapes me currently (paraphrase alert) has said," God does not require you to check your brian at the door."
Boy have I got into "heat" for making that comment in some circles...
Gracias,
Glenn
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"...demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromantics, divination and other teachings".
We talking about the Bible or D&D? Lol
I remember those times well, I was the DM and had to justify the game plenty of times to the parents of my gaming group. Anyone remember the made for TV movie that Tom Hanks was in "Mazes and Monsters"? That movie is what got me playing D&D (and if I remember correctly it was supposed to be a deterrent)!
Great memories,
Damien
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You beat me to it Damien. I was going to say the same thing about the Bible.
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Great minds... :D
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Beat you all! Re-read my previous post;)
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Dammit! It was too ambiguous for me lol
Damien
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I remember a short conversation with my mom when I started playing Robotech role-playing games around the age of 9-10. She was asking me how it worked and she mentioned (not overly critical) the issues with some kids who'd gone to jail for stabbing friends whilst "in character" etc. I told her "Mom...I can't become a 45 foot tall robot."
lol
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I remember steve jackson defending rpgs on a bbc debate in the 80s agaist some priest i think?? anybody else remeber that?? >:(
I think that was an infamous edition of the televised slanging-match called "Central Weekend Live"; I think I remember Paul Cockburn being in it, too.
That ridiculous programme was pretty much the high water mark for the whole farce in the UK, and as a whole we were luckier than some of our friends overseas; for the most part it was the crusaders themselves who were mocked, while RPGs and the like were mostly seen as being nerdy, at worst. Outbreaks of phobia were generally more localised. For my own part, it was my own mum who introduced me to RPGs, and my school positively encouraged my efforts, seeing its potential to encourage improved numeracy and literacy amongst us.
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I Anyone remember the made for TV movie that Tom Hanks was in "Mazes and Monsters"? That movie is what got me playing D&D (and if I remember correctly it was supposed to be a deterrent)!
What a horrible movie, and I only watched half of it
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I remember how the inquisition was served in France, with the triumvira of hypocrits : a so-called 'journalist' trying to create her own brand of spycho-show, a 'psychiatrist' that now fights the evil of Pokemon (really, that's what he's up to now ...) and a senior lecturer in law that couldn't deal with the suicide of her 15yo son. She claimed RpGs were responsible as she perfectly knew her son, a son she only saw a couple of days every 2 weeks ... Whatever the pain such a lost may induce, it just take a little academic knowledge to consider loneliness and the lack of attention from his parents most clearly killed the poor boy, not a bunch of dices ...
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What a horrible movie, and I only watched half of it
Right wing propaganda... It was worth watching only for how stupid it was. They made it very clear from the beginning of the film that TH had a mental illness because of the death of his brother. The fact that they chose to focus on gaming, and not say that fact that this mentally unstable boy was away from home and without the normal support he grew accustomed to, he had a breakdown. BTW, notice no one actually cared to point out that everything was in fact just fine at the table playing the game. It was only when they began to LARP, did the poop hit the fan. This proves two things. First, that there is, even in the filmmaker's opinion, nothing wrong with RPG's. And two, LARPing the the thing of the Devil. See what it did to this poor young man?!?!?! We must educate the Public about this menace immediately!
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I started playing in 1979, so I played through the height of that period - and in Tennessee and North Carolina (heart of the "Bible Belt"), no less. But I never had anybody say anything to me personally.
I joined a long-standing D&D group here in Texas a few years after moving down, and I did hear a funny story from one of those players. He played for a couple of years, and then heard a "D&D's Evil" speech from a local minister, so he gave away his figures and burned his books and notebooks. And then a year or so later realized he was an idiot, bought the books all over again, and rejoined the group. And then a couple of years after that he was again convinced it was all evil, gave away his figures and burned his books once more. Eventually he returned to gaming. Nice fellow, but his teenage years seemed to have been a bit rough on him!
-Michael
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Mazes & monsters has been enjoying regular afternoon showings on the Horror Channel recently.
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True! LARPing IS the tool of the devil! Chairs too of course...
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And then a couple of years after that he was again convinced it was all evil, gave away his figures and burned his books once more.
Burning books is rarely a good idea. I still regret using the pages of my miniature Gideon's bible (given to us at school) as cigarette papers, despite them being the perfect size and texture. I've now got this idea it might not go so well for me post-mortem. Probably not a risk worth taking in hindsight, just for the odd sneaky fag.
If he'd have given them away to a charity shop, he would have had the (outside) option of going to the shop, finding them still there and buying them back for a pittance. I donated a load of old books to my local Catholic charity shop (I'm not Catholic, but it's the closest one to where I live and books ain't light) before considering the fact that on top of the pile was a Tarot boxed set. They picked it up, declared its wickedness with a chuckle and then argued over which one was allowed to take it home. They won't be chuckling when Satan is roasting their arse and prodding it with little forks.
I did LARP a grand total of twice, before realising that despite being by some way the youngest participant there (16), I was still too old for that level of disbelief suspension and decided to concentrate on getting laid instead. I don't regret the reorganisation of my priorities. Everyone has their line in the sand.
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you have to draw the line somewhere and I drew it at LARPing
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I did sort of LARP once in high school. We made foam covered PVC swords and went to a local park and beat he snot out of each other. I remember the guy who was the wizard throwing colored, streamer covered tennis balls at people yelling "The green ones make you freeze!". So you'd stand there after getting hit by one while people beat you into submission. " One steamboat...ouch!.. Two steamboat... Hey!....etc... :'(
I was, however able to finally kiss a girl... :o
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I was lectured about the evils of D&D more than once, mostly by friend's parents.
One of my favorite quotes was when my friend was arguing with his mom (she had opened a bible up and started reading relevant passages) and said "If it was named 'Shirt Tales' you wouldn't have a problem with it!".
Pretty sure she and her husband were busted a few years later for cultivating psychedelic mushrooms ;)
My mom, bless her heart, bought me the Monster Manual for Christmas, and I'm pretty sure she got me the 3rd ed. Cthulhu hardback shortly after. I'm guessing she didn't look inside ;)
When metal music started taking a lot of flak, and I started getting into bands like Ozzy and Mercyful Fate her radar turned on somehow and she brought home a pamphlet from a "Save our kids from Satanism" seminar she attended. I had a LOT of the red flags. For some reason she never pushed me over it though.
Ah, good times :)
Then gang violence showed up (Crips and Bloods) and noone gave a shit about D&D anymore :) lol
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Then gang violence showed up (Crips and Bloods) and noone gave a shit about D&D anymore :) lol
So very true!
Nothing like a little perspective to help us focus on the truly significant issues, eh? Lord, I miss those seemingly carefree days before crack cocaine showed up.
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Never did me any harm! :)
Rpg,heavy metal music,video nasties......all been blamed for various acts over the years! ::)
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Wow, I grew up in the 80's but at the time barely had any idea people thought roleplaying could be evil, perhaps since I grew up in a mostly religionless area (Australia, ha!). I guess I don't know or talk to anyone who follow a religion that typically stands against it or believes in this Satan bloke, come to think of it. Demons, devils and the like were no more real to me than Pokemon are to children today.
Interesting enough article to read now, quaint even.
Actually, I remember a teacher laughing that it used to be seen as villainous. She clearly didn't agree with the idea. Since then, I can think of a single mention of it in recent years (a hilariously outdated flyer in the mail).
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Having been President of the Monash Uni RPG club and a Roleplaying Convention, I came up against this more than once. These days, it's just funny to me. Despite being a Deist, I have no issues with faith, I'm even friendly with the local JWs, so I'm happy to explain that what we're doing is "Cops and Robbers" with more rules and dice.
If patiently explaining the hobby doesn't convince people and I feel that they have made their decision long ago and are just looking to confirm it, I can always whip out a Wraith: The Oblivion book and help them feel justified. lol
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I too grew up in the 80's playing D&D and listening to Motorhead and AC/DC mostly bought for me by family members. The entire family was and is Northern Ireland Presbyterian/Methodist and nobody had a problem with it.
My minister once objected to a Motorhead England T-shirt I wore like a second skin but that was the most that was ever said. He found my studying Philosophy as a second subject at university much more objectionable.
Dragons and Lemmy are fine, Socrates, now there is a danger to the youth!
I am now a clinical Psychologist and RPG's are pretty much recognised as being a legitimate theraputic tool.
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In the first 90's in Spain we had a crime related to rpg, two guys killed a men in a bus stop, they declared they were testing the combat rules for their own game. Later, forensic doctors declared the leader of the crime was completely nuts in a multiple personality disorder, but on the meantime press went into the guy house, full of weird stuff, esoteric books, lots of knives, ...and rpg rulebooks. So, you can guess how the media had fun with that.
It is nowadays known as "el crimen del rol", an turned into a journalist resource from time to time, associating any kind of weird crime to rpg and videogames as the main source of evil.
If you want to know more search google by "el crimen del rol" or drop this link into google translator http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_del_rol
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Blimey ... to misquote the NRA ... rpgs dont kill people, people kill people. Mind you after three years of playing fourth edition DND my head still spins trying to work out character generation. I mean I might be doing it right but frankly I dont know ... it's enough to make you crazy! o_o
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Then gang violence showed up (Crips and Bloods) and noone gave a shit about D&D anymore :) lol
Priorities sometimes sort themselves out. :o
Gracias,
Glenn
East Los Angeles born, So Cal Urban/suburban eaised