Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: moonshado on June 23, 2013, 05:45:38 PM
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For fellow UK LAFers and those European members who can pick up British TV, I just noticed that Channel 5 will be showing Zulu Dawn next Saturday(29th June) at 16.50 hrs.
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It and Zulu are both on Netflix instant queue as well at the moment.
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I can't believe that any wargamer hasn't got both of those films!!!!
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I must admit that Zulu Dawn is my favorite out of the two (quite possibly in the minority lol ).
cheers
James
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I have them both on DVD. Some where I have copies of both on old VHS tape too.
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I must admit that Zulu Dawn is my favorite out of the two (quite possibly in the minority lol ).
cheers
James
It's certainly the better film for accuracy (albeit a bit disjointed).....despite the screwdrivers...... ;)
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.despite the screwdrivers...... ;)
??? ?
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It's certainly the better film for accuracy (albeit a bit disjointed).....despite the screwdrivers...... ;)
lol
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It's certainly the better film for accuracy (albeit a bit disjointed).....despite the screwdrivers...... ;)
Is that tools on screen or drinks for the viewer? ;D
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This is Ian Knight's comment:
The disastrous British defeat at iSandlwana is still sometimes attributed to a failure of ammunition on the part of the unit most involved in the defence - the 24th Regiment.
This is variously ascribed to the unwillingness of Quartermasters to issue rounds without due paperwork, to the difficulties of opening the ammunition boxes themselves - which were supposedly bound tight with copper bands - and even to a lack of screwdrivers with which to do so.
In fact, any careful analysis of the evidence doesn’t support any of these claims. While it is true that some of the Colonial units - those under the independent command of Col. Durnford - did run out of ammunition and have difficulty replenishing their supplies, there is no evidence whatever to suggest that shortage of ammunition influenced in any way the tactical decisions of the officers of the 24th Regiment, whose men constituted the main element in the British firing line.
There were huge quantities of rifle and carbine ammunition in the camp at iSandlwana - about 400,000 rounds in all. General Lord Chelmsford had taken the 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment, out on reconnaissance, but left their reserve of ammunition in the camp, with orders that it be made ready to send to him if he requested it. The camp was guarded by the 1st Battalion, 24th, whose reserve supply was also in the camp. The ammunition itself was stored in the Mark V ammunition box, which was a stout wooden thing, lined with tin, and held together with two copper bands. Obviously, such boxes were designed to take rough treatment on campaign - no point in them bursting open every time they were dropped - but access to the rounds was via a sliding wooden panel in the centre of the box. This was held in place by just one screw, and in an emergency it could be opened by the highly unorthadox method of giving the edge of the panel a hefty clout. This had the effect of splintering the wood around the screw.
When the battle first began, one of the Staff Officers collected a number of men not engaged in the fighting, and set about ferrying ammunition out to the firing line - this was the standard procedure at the time. One rather over-enthusiastic young officer attempted to requisition the 2/24th’s supply, but was sent away with a flea in his ear by the quartermaster, who was quite rightly mindful of his responsibilities to Lord Chelmsford. At that stage, the camp was not in serious danger, and in fact fresh supplies were organised from the 1/24th’s reserve. Later, when things started going badly, the 2/24th’s supplies were also broached, so that when - at the climax of the battle - the 24th companies abandoned their forward positions and fell back on the tents, they were still firing heavily. The reports of survivors - including half a dozen Zulu eye-witnesses - were unanimous on this point.
Once the Zulus penetrated the British line and over-ran the camp, however, there was no possibility of anyone renewing their supplies. The various groups of 24th - and others - therefore stood back to back and fired off what ammunition they had, after which the Zulu closed in. And therein lies the origin of all those reports which refer to the 24th being ’overwhelmed when their ammunition was expended’.
Of course, even now it is far easier to believe that a modern, Western, industrialised army could be defeated through some folly of its own, rather than that it could be out-generalled by a part-time civilian army armed primarily with spears - an army, moreover, consisting entirely of Africans.
But such a view is based on false assumptions of racial and technological superiority, and a misunderstanding of the tactical realities. In a funny way it slights the memory of the 24th - suggesting that, experienced battalions though they were, they had not managed to work out their own resupply, nor open their own ammunition boxes - and it is a view which denies the tactical skill, discipline, and sheer raw courage of the Zulu people. The battle of iSandlwana was more than just a British defeat - it was, after all, a Zulu victory..
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About a year ago, I walked some of the AZW battlefields with a guide who told me that a full 70% of his clients are there because of their fascination with the film "Zulu", and that "the BBC, God bless them, seems to rebroadcast the film every year", thus ensuring a steady stream of new clients for his business. :) He went on to mention that most of his tours are normally spent correcting the myths the movie generated... :)
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Two of my favourite films!
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??? ?
Its a popular myth that the British firing line ran short of ammunition because the Quartermasters had no screwdrivers to open the ammunition boxes with.
I also once got into an argument with guy working in wargames shop, who said that the British had 2 Gatling Guns at Isandlwana but they were in packing cases (and not assembled - perhaps because of screwdrivers ;)) - he would not be swayed from his idea.....
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About a year ago, I walked some of the AZW battlefields with a guide who told me that a full 70% of his clients are there because of their fascination with the film "Zulu", and that "the BBC, God bless them, seems to rebroadcast the film every year", thus ensuring a steady stream of new clients for his business. :) He went on to mention that most of his tours are normally spent correcting the myths the movie generated... :)
I had the pleasure of staying with David Rattray at the Fugitives Drift lodge many years ago. As well as doing Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift we went to see the graves of Melville and Coghill down at the Fugities Drift.
I found Isandlwana a very moving experience, its an eerie place,climbing the mountain and looking down at the knots of white cairns where the soldiers had fallen... Also the scale of the battle, the terrain is vast!
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I like both films! I enjoy Zulu Dawn the most - not totally sure why. But I think the disjointed nature really lends itself to the battle (and opening moves of the campaign) itself so I actually feel it offers some lack of cohesion. However, is there any finer moment in film that when the men at Rorkes Drift start singing Men of Harlech! Brilliant!
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A while ago it was virtually impossible to get a DVD of Zulu Dawn, now they're giving it away with newspapers. I have five copies plus a delux limited edition video, just in case ;)
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Where else can you see Phil Daniels and Grouty from Porridge as a double-act? :)
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I must admit that my knowledge of Isandhlwana dates back to the 1970's and I still believed in the screwdrivers. Is there a more up to date account?
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I must admit that my knowledge of Isandhlwana dates back to the 1970's and I still believed in the screwdrivers. Is there a more up to date account?
I posted Ian Knight's version on Page 1. :-[
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Where else can you see Phil Daniels and Grouty from Porridge as a double-act? :)
Just out of interest - Grouty/Bloomfield used to live in my adopted town......
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However, is there any finer moment in film that when the men at Rorkes Drift start singing Men of Harlech! Brilliant!
The Zulu ingomane (or whatever its called)?
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My favourite film, after Battle of Britain, has to be Zulu! (Don't forget the exclamation mark!!) :D
And Michael Caine my favourite character, hence my soubriquet. "At 100 yards....".etc
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Michael Caine's far better quotation was "That man there, he's a blooming hero, killed 15 Japanese single handed, 30 if you like" from Too late the Hero, but having worked with a cockney for 14 years, whose favourite quote(actually only quote) this was I've became a wheeny bit tired of it myself.
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I posted Ian Knight's version on Page 1. :-[
Thanks. So it was all a convenient lie to save the British Army's reputation.
I do recall seeing a History Channel show which suggested that the real error at Isandhlwana was that the firing line was spread too wide and thin and that there simply wasn't the concentrated volume of firepower to break a determined Zulu massed charge. That explanation made a lot of tactical sense.
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That is true as well, but the lack of ammunition wasn't......
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isn't it always the same?
after a lost battle, someone has to be blamed
Churchill and Gallippoli
Longstreet and Ghettysburgh
Ney and Waterloo
You will never hear "the others were simply better"
why should the reality be different from wargaming? ;)
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Zulu Dawn was the nickname of a lady I once worked with!
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Zulu Dawn was the nickname of a lady I once worked with!
Was her name Dawn then?
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My favourite film, after Battle of Britain, has to be Zulu! (Don't forget the exclamation mark!!) :D
And Michael Caine my favourite character, hence my soubriquet. "At 100 yards....".etc
I saw BoB at the Odeon when it was released, but didn't get a programme (although I did get the theatre programme for Tora!Tora!Tora!), unfortunately only seen Zulu! on the small screen.
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For fellow UK LAFers and those European members who can pick up British TV, I just noticed that Channel 5 will be showing Zulu Dawn next Saturday(29th June) at 16.50 hrs.
And Zulu is on the same day on More 4 at 13:05!
All you need now for a perfect days viewing would be to have Khartoum on as well! o_o
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Larry Olivier spoils that for me with his Camptown Races Minstrel Mahdi. The only thing I can think of that could have been worse would have been Jim Davidson doing his Chalky White voice instead.
Alexander Siddig would have been a perfect choice for the role if we had to have an English actor, there's even the family resemblance. The only flaw in this brilliant plan is that he was only one year old when Khartoum was made. ;D
Edit: Spelled Mahdi wrong, like a bloody twit, didn't I?
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Oh beloved! Darling Lally was brilliant, come on Plynkes (http://i39.tinypic.com/2mqtcms.jpg)
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Oh beloved! Darling Lally was brilliant, come on Plynkes (http://i39.tinypic.com/2mqtcms.jpg)
At least he had the gap in his teeth......
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If you're looking for a modern analysis of Isandlwana, read Mike Snook's book "How can man die better?". Slightly biased against Durnford (not unexpected from an ex-officer of the 24th!) but a gripping account that challenges most of the preconceptions of how the disaster occured and how it played out.
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If you're looking for a modern analysis of Isandlwana, read Mike Snook's book "How can man die better?". Slightly biased against Durnford (not unexpected from an ex-officer of the 24th!) but a gripping account that challenges most of the preconceptions of how the disaster occured and how it played out.
Slightly biased? Hmmm...a bit of an understatement there.....not that I do not think Durnford had a lot to do with the defeat..but he was not the sole reason
A good enough read but too much "good ol' 24th" for my liking.....good analysis of the British burials though.
A better read (in my view) is Zulu Victory: The Epic of Isandlwana and the Cover-up by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill.
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I left Fugitive's Drift Lodge yesterday after guided tours of Rourke's Drift, Isandlwana, and Fugitive's Drift. Really excellent experience that has started me on a new period. (I went with a friend who games colonial era.)
Funny enough the Lodge had a box of Warlord unmarried Zulus and a box of NNC infantry. My friend and I each bought a box and split the sprues so we each have some purchased there.
I can't deny being crushingly disappointed to find the Warlord shields significantly smaller than the Zulu tour guide, who had two ancestors who served in those battles, had described them to be...
Our guide did address the screwdriver myth and pointed out that Zulus had opened ammo boxes by the simple expedient of smashing them on the abundant rocks. Surely the Brits could have done the same if need be he added.
I'm working paper plans for a save the colours game as well as a scenario featuring Younghusband's company. I got to spend about an hour exactly on the spot of his stand. Amazing. Humbling.
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I left Fugitive's Drift Lodge yesterday after guided tours of Rourke's Drift, Isandlwana, and Fugitive's Drift.
I got to spend about an hour exactly on the spot of his stand. Amazing. Humbling.
Yep, very humbling, I was fortunate to have David Rattray as my guide when I stayed at the Fugitive's Drift Lodge.
Are they still selling the audio recordings he made describing the battles? His descriptions of the battles, the characters and the correct pronounciation of the Zulu regiment names helped bring it to life for me.
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Yes - the recordings were for sale and I brought one home. Also a copy of his Guidebook of Zulu Battlefields which was recently reprinted. The guides play relevant sections of the audio in the Landie while driving from to and from the sites. It was really interesting. (And a brilliant marketing technique.)
David Rattray has passed away, and his wife and sons were on holiday while I was there, but the guides I had (a different one for each site) were all outstanding. Imphiwe (I'm 90% sure of the spelling) who gave the Isandlwana tour was especially good.
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Yes - the recordings were for sale and I brought one home. Also a copy of his Guidebook of Zulu Battlefields which was recently reprinted. The guides play relevant sections of the audio in the Landie while driving from to and from the sites. It was really interesting. (And a brilliant marketing technique.)
David Rattray has passed away, and his wife and sons were on holiday while I was there, but the guides I had (a different one for each site) were all outstanding. Imphiwe (I'm 90% sure of the spelling) who gave the Isandlwana tour was especially good.
The recordings are excellent, I was there a long time ago and mt recordings are on audio cassette. lol
David Rattray was murdered about three or four years ago, shot dead at the lodge, a very tragic and very sad loss.
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I would like to host the battle of isandlwana for my wargames group with a key component being depleting ammunition. Which rules would be best? (8 players)
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Surixurient,
I run Isandlwana in 6mm at a 1:5 scale. I couldn't find a set of rules that worked the way I wanted it to, so I made up my own. Basically each company rolls a certain number of d10s for firing based upon formation,terrain,movement,etc. If the majority of the dice rolled are 9s or 10s then the company is low on ammo. Low on ammo means negative applications to shooting. If the company rolls low on ammo again then it is out of ammo and can no longer fire. Each organization at Isandlwana has its own supply wagon in camp (1/24, 2/24, NNH, NNC, RA). At the end of each turn any unit low on ammo rolls 1d10 to see if it gets an ammo resupply. On 1-8 it gets resupplied with the following modifiers to the target number: -1 for every 6" away from supply wagon / -1 if it is not a british regular unit. If you roll the modified target # or less, the unit is completely resupplied.
I would be happy to share my rules with you, or better yet run a game for you if you live anywhere near central Illinois.
Jim
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Thanks legionnaire. I'd be interested in hearing your rules.