Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => In Her Majesty's Name => Topic started by: Conquistador on March 21, 2014, 02:00:21 PM
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So what is the "average" table size you use for two Companies in IHMN games?
What is the largest you think appropriate for two Companies? Smallest?
If you have 4 parties (or more at a convention setting) how does that affect table size? Double the parties = double the table space? 150% of "normal" same space just "denser target environment" setting?
It appears that the terrain posted in game AARs here is generally dense with some long alleys of fire. Is that your experience?
Gracias,
Glenn
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I Think 3' x 3' is plenty of room and the more terrain the better.
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It 'appears' that you are talking to yourself..... ;)
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I guess there are only so many icons in the world...
Perhaps I shall try and get another...
Gracias,
Glenn
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I was only pulling your leg.
It just looked like that at first glance and I could not resist.
:D
As for table size: When we played IHMN we used the standard 3x3.
And, as for all skirmish games, I find the more 'clutter' the better.
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I was only pulling your leg.
<snip>
Oh, Understood. I have wondered how to load my THW one for a while.
IIRC, at least one other person uses that avatar too.
Gracias,
Glenn
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3x3 and lots of terrain. For me anyway. Those with military formations prefer the open plains...
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I think with two teams at 250 points you don't want to get much bigger then 3X3. If you do you start spending too many turns walking across the board trying to reach the enemy. Unless you are my speed demons like my Ronin then you are in Close combat by turn 2 on a 3X3. As for Terrien I think that is depended on the leagues playing, Close combat heavy leagues like Tongs or low range groups like Scotland yard want a lot of terrien so that they don't get shot to pieces before they have a chance to close to a range they can fight effectively at. Were in rifle heavy league or fast Calvary then you want more open spaces to dominate at range or increase your movement options for the large based figures on horse back.
If you add more players or 300+ point leagues you need to start increasing the size to 4X4 or larger tables unless you are looking to have a big bloody rumble as with that many figures you don't have a ton of manoeuvre options on the 3X3 table..
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3x3 normally. Wouldn't go above a 4x4 even with multiple players as combat etc tends to clump and it can easily make for one player just moving for most of the game.
The more scenery the better.
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You could fight an entire battle inside one of 4Grounds three storey warehouses... a bit like The Raid or the new Dredd.
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You could fight an entire battle inside one of 4Grounds three storey warehouses... a bit like The Raid or the new Dredd.
Now if someone would just buy me one, I'd be glad to try!
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3x3 for two players @250p. If 4 players I may incrase to 3x4 if still at 200-250 per player but I feel that game with more than a total of 600-700p can get a bit sluggish (naturally depending on scenario).
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I think it's worth mentioning that on a 3'x3' table, a figure with a hunting rifle in the middle of a side can fire at most locations on the table, while a light field gun is in range of everything but the opposite corner.
Subject to line of sight, of course ;)
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I think it's worth mentioning that o a 3'x3' table, a figure with a hunting rifle in the middle oc a side can fire at most locationa on the table, while a light field gun is in range of everything but the opposite corner.
Subject to line of sight, of course ;)
As is right and proper.
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I have only played on slightly larger tables...4x6 and 4x5. That's just what local have in their gaming rooms.
I have noticed that the Medic talent does not work very often on tables of this size. I have considered a house rule relative to table size to allow Medic to save allies at a penalty in the second turn after falling.
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Not really related to the table size, but...
I ran a small campaign last year with 4-5 parties per game, with the standard (was it 200 points?) sized parties. Roughly 10 figures per player anyways.
We found that the game slows down really badly with multiple players. Consider tweaking the activation mechanic if you want to increase the player and/or figure count.
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Not really related to the table size, but...
I ran a small campaign last year with 4-5 parties per game, with the standard (was it 200 points?) sized parties. Roughly 10 figures per player anyways.
We found that the game slows down really badly with multiple players. Consider tweaking the activation mechanic if you want to increase the player and/or figure count.
So, it is not, (vanilla standard,) a good (American, multiple player, introduce the game to people,) convention game?
Gracias,
Glenn
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I have only played on slightly larger tables...4x6 and 4x5. That's just what local have in their gaming rooms.
I have noticed that the Medic talent does not work very often on tables of this size. I have considered a house rule relative to table size to allow Medic to save allies at a penalty in the second turn after falling.
Just set up further onto the board.
So, it is not, (vanilla standard,) a good (American, multiple player, introduce the game to people,) convention game?
Gracias,
Glenn
Not really. Without some changes it bogs down quickly with multiple players. That said, I find it an incredibly easy game to teach people and have in the past run two 3x3 games simultaneously (kind of). Get one game started and in a couple of turns and then start a second, by this point the first game hardly needs any input, just to answer an occasional question.
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<snip>
Not really. Without some changes it bogs down quickly with multiple players. That said, I find it an incredibly easy game to teach people and have in the past run two 3x3 games simultaneously (kind of). Get one game started and in a couple of turns and then start a second, by this point the first game hardly needs any input, just to answer an occasional question.
Thanks!
I will introduce people in ones and twos in my basement or at a local club.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I have only played on slightly larger tables...4x6 and 4x5. That's just what local have in their gaming rooms.
I have noticed that the Medic talent does not work very often on tables of this size. I have considered a house rule relative to table size to allow Medic to save allies at a penalty in the second turn after falling.
Is that because the Medic can't get to the victim fast enough? Too far away?
Related question - do you find people target Medics in the game? I read that once in an AAR and thought it seemed to be counter to the Gentleman's Game concept.
Gracias,
Glenn
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That said, I find it an incredibly easy game to teach people
I found that movement is the trickiest part, especially in a large multi-player environment.
Not because movement is particularly difficult but because you have to remember the exact movement for each figure as it affects later stages (mostly shooting). Did they run? Did they move over or under 3"? You need to remember that for each of your own figures and ask that of anyone you contemplate shooting at.
The other problematic point are the "once in game" abilities, especially if rank'n'file troopers have them. Remembering who has used his and who has not becomes a chore and usually players tend to err in their own favor...
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Regarding slightly larger boards...
Is that because the Medic can't get to the victim fast enough? Too far away?
Yes. While I have yet to use them, Arc Weapons will perform differently on a large, open board compared to a small board with dense terrain.
Dewbakuk's suggestions to apply the Warhammer trick of setting up forces closer to one another on a larger board would take away from the games I've played. Why play on a large board with nice scenery if you are only going to play in the middle of it? One advantage of the larger board is that you can spread your objectives out more and reduce the congested close combats, what Dewbakuk calls clumping. One just needs to tweak rules and scenarios to the board size he has at hand.
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Why play on a large board with nice scenery if you are only going to play in the middle of it?
Because it was stated that was the only board that they could play on. I have no objection to larger boards if you want to play on them, it can make for some very mobile games. We were talking about multiplayer games though and in my experience the game tends to keep moving away from one of the players on a large board.
Why is setting up further onto the board a "Warhammer trick"?
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Not because movement is particularly difficult but because you have to remember the exact movement for each figure as it affects later stages (mostly shooting). Did they run? Did they move over or under 3"? You need to remember that for each of your own figures and ask that of anyone you contemplate shooting at.
The other problematic point are the "once in game" abilities, especially if rank'n'file troopers have them. Remembering who has used his and who has not becomes a chore and usually players tend to err in their own favor...
We have noted that many players use counters for this. My good friend Mark developed a comprehensive set of counters that you can download from the Blog:
http://inhermajestysname.wordpress.com/additional-material/
Scroll down to item 16.
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We have noted that many players use counters for this.
I hate counters. (I realize this is my personal bias). I love the hit resolution, because it doesn't require counters or record-keeping... but then I need counters for something as mundane as moving?
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I hate counters. (I realize this is my personal bias). I love the hit resolution, because it doesn't require counters or record-keeping... but then I need counters for something as mundane as moving?
I should point out that I don't use them as I find I can actually remember moving my figures :)
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I should point out that I don't use them as I find I can actually remember moving my figures :)
So can I, although Karl (one of the players) does have trouble, bless him.
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We definitely need movement markers, 'cause our old, slow minds have been hampered by decades of abuse and loud punk-rock music. o_o
Small, but useful, beads in green, yellow and red give us a 'traffic light' system to track movement modifiers. Easy to place and to pick up again but small enough to facilitate associating each bead with an individual figure.
We use them with a variety of rule-sets...
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I think it's worth mentioning that on a 3'x3' table, a figure with a hunting rifle in the middle of a side can fire at most locations on the table, while a light field gun is in range of everything but the opposite corner.
Hence the importance of copious amounts of terrain, naturally.
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3x3 table size is great to teach/learn with at the start. If we have longer/wider tables available, we 'battlebox' it - i.e., one company faces off another within their patch and fight to a conclusion between them, while other opposing forces do the same at the other 'end of the pitch'. Only when a contest is properly resolved can the victor then affect/interfere in the other contest, and frankly, normally they aren't in a fit state to do so.
As for the counters, I'm a bit of a fussy bar-steward when it comes to markers on the tabletop, especially if I've gone to the extent of laying out decent looking terrain. And these rules work really well if you lay down a lot of terrain!
So on that basis, don't clutter the tabletop - make up a Company reference sheet on A4 landscape, with some pix of the figures grabbed by your mobile phone or camera and pasted in, with text about their abilities and such, and then place the markers on that figure's portrait/space on the reference sheet. That's my preference ;)
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I should point out that I don't use them as I find I can actually remember moving my figures :)
But you need to remember whether they moved over or under 3".
There's four distinct movement states (didn't move - moved under 3" - moved over 3" - ran) that has to be remembered for each figure on individual basis.
Yes, I'm going senile and thinking hurts my head...
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There's four distinct movement states (didn't move - moved under 3" - moved over 3" - ran) that has to be remembered for each figure on individual basis.
Well, as for shooting penalties, only the last two matter. Moving under three inches is the same as not moving as far as shooting penalties are concerned.
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But you need to remember whether they moved over or under 3".
There's four distinct movement states (didn't move - moved under 3" - moved over 3" - ran) that has to be remembered for each figure on individual basis.
Yes, I'm going senile and thinking hurts my head...
Then we both are going there!
Following the path of most digression (and not verifying math):
Seriously, I am looking at Tarzan, (not many figures, averages seem like other Companies,) and Mexican Revolutionaries (a peon heavy set of combinations is where it may break down for me) where I may have a combination of main character(s):
- 1) El Toro (E. T.) at 64 points and peons becoming [reasonably inexpensive] fanatics [6 + 5 points = 11, 1 in 3 with a Shotgun (16 points) OR pistol (14 points);
2) Isabella Is. at 35 points and same fanatic pointing;
3) E. T. and Is. for 99 points and same fanatic pointing;
4) or 1 to 3 Young Dons, (26, 52, or 78 points) with (No E. T or Is.) down right cheap non-fanatical peons at 6 points with 1 in 3 with a Shotgun (11 points) OR pistol (9 points.)
So, avoiding Mercenaries and one 14 points Rancher (Carbine as "long range support") for now, even with E. T. and Is. together (99 points) you have 151 points o play with with means you can have (assume an average (25, 30, 30, 35, 35 with options) of 30 points for a priest you still have 121 points of "more expensive peons" (going 'high points peons figures' with 2 multiples of (2 x 11 and 1 x 16 = 38) plus 2 more at 11 points and it is only 11 figures with 4 possible 'states of movement' to track each (44 possible chances for an error.) But if you 'go cheaper' with "fanatic melee peons" only it could be as many as 23 figures at E. T. plus Is. plus priest plus 20 peons.
Worse/Best case, 2 (Redundancy versus 'snipers' ending the game early) Young Don leaders, a Priest and a Rancher gives you 154 points of non-fanatic peons with multiples of (2 x 6 plus 1 x 11 = 23) meaning 8 peons and 4 leaders/specialists [12 figures] or - with no Peons with fire arms - 25 peons plus 4 'character'/specialist figures [29!] to track.
Yes the last is pushing the envelope but, depending on the scenario, I think I need a bunch of small rock/bush counters to represent movement for 30 figures.
I think I could use small blend-in slightly style 10/15 mm bases to show Run = bush and 2 small rocks; Move more than 3 inches = bush; move 3" or less = small rocks; no move = no counter but I cannot contemplate tracking circa 30 figures (or potentially more with only one Young Don leader) in a game. YMMV and hopefully should...
Gracias,
Glenn
Who has tons of peons... "Use what you have"
P. S.
I think I would roll dice for leadership combinations (with pre-planned Priest/Farmer/Peon/Rancher combinations - avoiding Mercenaries where possible - figured out.)
This would represent the fragmented organization of the Rebels, the individualistic nature of the leadership, and keep me from having a boring "max-min" plan in mind every game.
D20 roll:
17 through 20 -E. T. and Is. only (20%)
14 - 16 - E. T. only (15%)
12 or 13 - Is. Only (10%)
10 or 11 - E. T. plus 1 Young Don (10%)
8 or 9 - E. T. plus 2 Young Dons (10%)
7 - E. T. plus 3 Young Dons (5%)
6 - Is. plus 1 Young Don [her brother or cousin of course!] (5%)
4 or 5 - Is. plus 2 Young Dons (10%) [brother and cousins!]
2 or 3 - Is. plus 3 Young Dons (10%) [brother and cousins!]
If a 1, roll a D6:
5 or 6 - 3 Young Dons only
2 to 4 - 2 Young Dons only
1 - 1 Young Don only (that is, what a [1 in 6 times (.1666666667) times 1 in 20 (.05) ] .8333333 percent chance?)
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Well, as for shooting penalties, only the last two matter. Moving under three inches is the same as not moving as far as shooting penalties are concerned.
Yes the effect is the same for shooting (I can't recall if it makes a difference somewhere else).
But conceptually it is a different thing to remember. You might easily remember not touching a figure at all during movement. Running is also usually relatively easy to remember, because using it is a conscious decision. But you also have to remember moving it, but only a little. You might want to move to a close by spot, but you also have to check if it's within 3" or not.
To be blunt, the rules would be much cleaner if the whole 3" rule was chucked. IMHO.
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Yes the effect is the same for shooting (I can't recall if it makes a difference somewhere else).
But conceptually it is a different thing to remember. You might easily remember not touching a figure at all during movement. Running is also usually relatively easy to remember, because using it is a conscious decision. But you also have to remember moving it, but only a little. You might want to move to a close by spot, but you also have to check if it's within 3" or not.
To be blunt, the rules would be much cleaner if the whole 3" rule was chucked. IMHO.
Does the 3" move represent a controlled move (more a tactical shift) still allowing better shooting?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Does the 3" move represent a controlled move (more a tactical shift) still allowing better shooting?
You don't get the penalties for moving when you fire if you moved less than 3". This is a big deal, as the penalty is substantial. Most figures won't hit the broad side of a barn if they get the penalty.
Actually, I think it would be simpler if you allowed stationary figures to make a minor shuffle as part of the fire action instead.
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You don't get the penalties for moving when you fire if you moved less than 3". This is a big deal, as the penalty is substantial. Most figures won't hit the broad side of a barn if they get the penalty.
Actually, I think it would be simpler if you allowed stationary figures to make a minor shuffle as part of the fire action instead.
Like metaphorically kneeling down by the fence post and resting your rifle on the cross beam type thing?
Gracias,
Glenn
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We like the small move, under 3", it works on many levels. Your mileage may vary, but we find it encourages manoeuvre.
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You don't get the penalties for moving when you fire if you moved less than 3". This is a big deal, as the penalty is substantial. Most figures won't hit the broad side of a barn if they get the penalty.
This is why part of your compa y moves while the other part shoots esch turn. It also helps to have a few mooks for volley fire ;)