Mordheim house rules that work well?

[Hobgoblin]

Like the Dwarf Master of Blades skill? Would you up the cost of shields for the additional benefits opening up the costed for in-game effect rather than cost to produce in reality can of worms?

I was thinking that a 'super-parry' would replace a save for the shield (and would apply against missiles too). I'd probably keep shields cheap - if only because so many of the miniatures I own have them!

Parry is an interesting one. There’s an argument that it should not just be limited to swords, bucklers & Dwarf axes. I think it’s makes more sense to have it as a skill useable with any weapon. Perhaps even one that’s automatically available to anyone who’s sufficiently skilled/trained. WS4?

Yes, that's a good idea - not least because it would reduce a lot of the henchman-related rolling. I think one could also simplify things a bit by dropping most or all of the distinctions between 'hand weapons' in the Warhammer sense. This would make assembling henchman groups easier and avoid some of the rules that tend to be forgotten in the heat of melee (axe modifiers to saves; sword parries; and club/mace/hammer stunning).

TBH, there are plenty of things that could be changed to make Mordheim more balanced and/or realistic. I haven’t found the system to be sufficiently broken to prompt me to do so and deal with all the knock-on effects yet.

Yeah, I don't think it's broken at all and have enjoyed all the games we've played so far.

My 'fighting retreats' rule goes in seamlessly, so that's the only tweak we've used to date. I do wonder if improving armour and shields might have a net beneficial effect - allowing smaller, heavily armoured warbands to be viable (so more variety) and balancing dual wielding and two-handed weapons (which become more valuable when armour's more effective). But the game does play well as is.

[Elbows]

Mordheim is definitely "breakable".  I'm sad to admit I quit the game (after investing a lot of time building for it) after a few weekends of play.  I played it many many moons ago when it launched and was happy to start again...but then I remembered how awry it can go.

It's not necessarily a matter of mechanics, but it suffers like many "campaign" style skirmish games do - in power creep.

It's exceptionally easy to pick-n-choose the best warbands, and if you're not both on the same page, it can go sideways really quick.  Warbands with poor initiative or speed are all but helpless, and all it takes is one or two powerful characters to make it really unfun.

I tried dwarfs and undead, both slow and low initiative.  The armour wasn't enough to save the dwarfs, and you're outrun in every scenario.  My buddy had some high BS characters with ranged weapons and it was basically game over.  The only way to compete was to powergame in response, something I'm not interested in.

Stuff like Skaven slingers are notorious simply because you could cheaply field 8-10 of them with 18"(?) slings for dirt cheap, etc.  The elf warbands were included in various Mordheim groups or the Citadel journal and were more or less outlawed - even by the people who wrote them up.

There's plenty to criticise about Mordheim, but it's easiest to simply play with people who are of a like mind and will avoid the power gaming nonsense (unless you're all into it).

[Hobgoblin]

Mordheim is definitely "breakable".  I'm sad to admit I quit the game (after investing a lot of time building for it) after a few weekends of play.  I played it many many moons ago when it launched and was happy to start again...but then I remembered how awry it can go.

I suppose the upside is that Mordheim terrain is perfect for most skirmish games. I'm restarting last year's building programme (lots begun; only a few ruins finished), safe in the knowledge that if we do tire of Mordheim, the terrain will be great for Song of Blades, etc. I'm also keen to try a table-top-confined RPG experience with miniatures - possibly using Savage Worlds.

It's not necessarily a matter of mechanics, but it suffers like many "campaign" style skirmish games do - in power creep.

Yeah, that's a side of it we haven't experienced yet, as we've only played single games and a couple of short "mini-campaigns".

It's exceptionally easy to pick-n-choose the best warbands, and if you're not both on the same page, it can go sideways really quick. Warbands with poor initiative or speed are all but helpless, and all it takes is one or two powerful characters to make it really unfun.

I'm hoping that WYSIWYG is the best defence here - especially with high-cost armour taking a toll cost-wise (whether or not we make it more effective). That's why I'm keen to have WYSIWYG trump the official lists; I don't think armoured goblins or verminkin halberdiers will break the game, but they might help to balance it - by forcing people to buy more expensive troops.

I tried dwarfs and undead, both slow and low initiative.  The armour wasn't enough to save the dwarfs, and you're outrun in every scenario.  My buddy had some high BS characters with ranged weapons and it was basically game over.  The only way to compete was to powergame in response, something I'm not interested in.

Interesting. With dwarfs, didn't you benefit from the universal T4? In our games so far, orcs have had a huge advantage simply because they're so hard to kill. In our very first game, a lone orc managed to tie up three verminkin with spears for the entire scenario; they knocked him down two or three times, but they failed to finish him off, even with free hits. I can see that the short moves don't help, though.

Undead do get very fast-moving options with dire wolves (they can't run, but they have a 9" basic move and an 18" charge) and the vampire, though. They're a warband I've been itching to try as I have some dire wolves, zombies and ghouls ready to go - just need a vampire (I have the old Citadel Elric lined up but might convert an interim one)! Were you very zombie-heavy?

Stuff like Skaven slingers are notorious simply because you could cheaply field 8-10 of them with 18"(?) slings for dirt cheap, etc.  The elf warbands were included in various Mordheim groups or the Citadel journal and were more or less outlawed - even by the people who wrote them up.

Yes - we haven't found Skaven slingers overwhelming so far, but they are very affordable. We're constrained here by how many I can convert and paint up: at the moment, we only have three. No one has shown an interest in elves so far, so I'll heed your advice and keep it that way! So far, we're looking at orcs (possibly more than one warband), Skaven, Cult of the Possessed, Norscan marauders, beastmen, mercenaries (again, perhaps more than one) and potentially undead.

There's plenty to criticise about Mordheim, but it's easiest to simply play with people who are of a like mind and will avoid the power gaming nonsense (unless you're all into it).

Right. Yes, we're all keen on WYSIWYG (within reason) and the evolving narrative - and, perhaps surprisingly, the financial-management side of things. Even in our four-game mini-campaign, we were already getting groans about the upkeep of an ogre bodyguard ...

[Hobgoblin]

Well, I got a five-game mini-campaign in last weekend. That helped crystallised some thoughts on house rules; we're going to keep the campaign going with new players coming in (the established players will have secondary and even tertiary starting warbands to give the new players the chance to catch up).

The thing that's become really clear is that boosting armour can't ruin the game: there are just too many opportunities to reduce or bypass armour saves (high-strength attacks, critical hits and so on). And my fighting retreats and forced retreats add dynamism and tactical interest without costing anything.

So, I'm proposing these rules for the rest of our campaign:

• Armour saves are boosted by one increment except for toughened leathers. So toughened leathers 6, shield 5 or 6, light armour 5 or 6, light armour + shield 3, 4, 5 or 6, heavy armour 4, 5 or 6, heavy armour and shield 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6
• Toughened leathers can be combined with a shield but not other armour (it's assumed that light or heavy armour have a jack or gamebeson involved.
• Full plate - with a 2+ save - can be bought for 150 crowns. Gromril full plate would have a 1+ save.
• Saves don't stack past 1+ (so a knight in Gromril plate on a barded warhorse still has a 1+ save).
• Shields and heavy armour each impose a -1 penalty to initiative for climbing; full plate has a -2 penalty (not easy climbing in gauntlets and sabatons!). This is cumulative, so a man in heavy armour with a shield has an initiative of 1 when it comes to climbing.
• Heroes and henchmen can drop shields as a free action; getting out of armour takes an entire movement phase.
• Anyone can pick up a dropped shield as a free action during the movement phase (as long as they pass over it).
• A character in combat can make a 'fighting retreat' of up to a full move during the movement phase; opponents can follow up up to their charge distance or opt to end the combat by staying put.
• If one melee combatant scores a hit on an opponent who remains standing and the opponent does not score a hit, the successful attacker can force a retreat of up to half a move (following up in the process - no follow-up, no retreat).
• When it comes to equipment, WYSIWYG trumps the official lists. So if you want to use one of that old Citadel goblin with a crossbow, you just pay for the crossbow. And if you want to field one of Ruglud's armoured orcs, you can just pay for heavy armour.
• Spears trump charges when it comes to initiative in the first round. So a spearman always strikes first in the first round of combat - unless the opponent also has a spear, in which case initiative is used.

With more than a dozen games under our belts now, I'm fairly confident that these house rules will work well. I think the armour adjustments should have several positive effects: they balance dual wielding, make two-handed weapons more attractive (especially if you're wearing heavy armour!). And they make the myriad light-armour+shield Citadel miniatures I own much more viable (hooray!).

At the same time, these rules should preserve the swashbuckling feel of the game. Yes, you can advance your armoured orcs down a street with a reasonable hope of standing up to bow fire or even crossbow fire. But if you're going to have to climb up buildings after the archers, you're less well placed. And you're still vulnerable to failed saves and criticals.

I think the criticals are going to be more interesting now, because the 3,4 and 5,6 results will matter more: very often, it doesn't much matter if you roll 1 or 4 because your strength/weapon has removed the save anyway. With more and better armour, there will be more resting on the critical roll.

The 'fighting retreat' rule will, in rare cases, allow fast-moving creatures (e.g. dire wolves) to move out of combat without penalty. But in those rare cases, the unsuccessful follow-up will still allow the opponent to be in pole position for a charge in the next turn (to the dire wolf's disadvantage) - although it might allow a vampire or drag with a bow to get a shot in first ...

[Elbows]

While some of this won't work with your house rules, here's a link to some quick reference sheets I put together back when I was trying to play Mordheim last:

https://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-gaming-periphery-mordheim-hacks.html

It includes all the random rules I could find in various publications, etc.  One of the sheets includes all the weapon-specific critical tables which add a bit of fun, etc.  A new roster sheet, etc. etc.

[Hobgoblin]

While some of this won't work with your house rules, here's a link to some quick reference sheets I put together back when I was trying to play Mordheim now:

https://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-gaming-periphery-mordheim-hacks.html

It includes all the random rules I could find in various publications, etc.  One of the sheets includes all the weapon-specific critical tables which add a bit of fun, etc.  A new roster sheet, etc. etc.

Those are great! Thanks very much - we'll certainly make use of them!

[mweaver]

We have played Mordheim fairly regularly since it was first released, and it remains my favorite skirmish game.  However, after the first three years or so, we mostly play collaborative games.

We don't actually use that many house rules.  We do count shields as giving a 5+ save in melee, to make them a more viable option to dual wielding.  And with spell casters' starting spell, we let them roll twice and pick from those two.

Elbows, in a long campaign dwarves are awesome. The first three times one of us ran dwarves, we gave up on them pretty quickly for the reasons you give (slow, and low initiative), which you feel from the start.  And then I ran another dwarf band, and decided to stick with them.  I discovered that their benefits (T4, high weapons skill, can wear heavy armor and carry shields without a movement penalty) mean that they lose far fewer models than most warbands, and by the time a dwarf warband is five or so games into a campaign, those benefits start making a big difference.  No dead dwarves = not having to buy replacements and not having to buy the newbies their gear.  And if they are not dying, their XP just keeps climbing.  I have run several dwarf warbands since, and if it isn't a short campaign, they have consistently done well (although again, many of those dwarf warbands have been in collaborative campaigns).

Great game, Mordheim.  Enjoy!

-Michael

[Hobgoblin]

We don't actually use that many house rules.  We do count shields as giving a 5+ save in melee, to make them a more viable option to dual wielding.  And with spell casters' starting spell, we let them roll twice and pick from those two.

Interesting! Our spell casters have certainly been very ineffectual so far; in last weekend's games, they contributed much more with bows than with spells. So I can see the sense in giving a choice of spells. That said, there's a lot of fun to be had in trying to work out how to use some not-very-promising spell, even if it never quite comes off!

By boosting armour so much, I'm aiming to do a few things. First, make sure that all our participants can make full use of their miniatures: we have loads of Skaven with shields, for example, and other players have lots of armoured knights and chaos types. Boosting shields as you do (or a bit further, as we'll allow 5, 6 vs missiles) makes the shield worth having and thus makes a huge swathe of miniatures viable.

Second, I think better armour ups the risk/reward calculation in an interesting way. So, if you have a couple of black orcs with light armour and a shield, you're on a. 3+ save under our house rules (including the black orc's innate 6+). That means you'd be fairly confident about being able to storm up an alley with Skaven slingers at the other end. But every hit has a 1 in 9 chance of bypassing armour via the critical table, so there's no certainty - the frontal assault is still a risky decision.

Third, better armour means smaller warbands - as there's a better case for buying more gear for your heroes. And that should help to get more warbands on the table sooner!

Elbows, in a long campaign dwarves are awesome. The first three times one of us ran dwarves, we gave up on them pretty quickly for the reasons you give (slow, and low initiative), which you feel from the start.  And then I ran another dwarf band, and decided to stick with them.  I discovered that their benefits (T4, high weapons skill, can wear heavy armor and carry shields without a movement penalty) mean that they lose far fewer models than most warbands, and by the time a dwarf warband is five or so games into a campaign, those benefits start making a big difference.  No dead dwarves = not having to buy replacements and not having to buy the newbies their gear.  And if they are not dying, their XP just keeps climbing.  I have run several dwarf warbands since, and if it isn't a short campaign, they have consistently done well (although again, many of those dwarf warbands have been in collaborative campaigns).

Your comments about dwarves' durability certainly chime with our experience with orcs so far. That T4 is a big deal!

We've also found that the undead are the speed merchants of the game, with dire wolves and their huge charge range featuring very prominently.

Great game, Mordheim.  Enjoy!

-Michael

Cheers! Yes, it's great fun.

The thing I'm finding most enjoyable is the impetus to get old miniatures out of boxes and painted up. I'm currently fulfilling a long-held ambition to get a warband of Jez Goodwin orc types painted up. I'm using his (small by modern standards) Golgfag's ogres and Uruk-hai as black orcs, with Throgg's hobgoblins, the earlier, smaller Uruk-hai and the largest Asgard orcs as Boyz and Nuttaz (I'm probably going to have to convert some of his Asgard barbarians to orcdom to get a full complement of Nuttaz). There will also be options for a conventional orc & goblin force. And then the smaller Asgard orcs can work as a night-goblin warband ...