The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Ulfhednar]

I remember many years back working for GW when the 'do everything in plastic' decision came down, the central cause was worry over competition. Rackham, Privateer Press, and a whole host of smaller start-ups were offering lovely metal minis, and market share was eroding. Not much, but enough to be a worry for the future.

So the plan was to have customers only buying plastic kits, so they'd only be familiar with plastic kits, and would regard metal minis from other companies as something weird and difficult to use, so would stay faithful to GW. It would also put pressure on the other manufacturers to try and get into plastics, requiring massive investment that they would struggle to achieve. Of course, it ended up taking too long, so we got Finecast as a stop-gap. But it was about driving the market into thinking 'miniatures=plastic'.

The long-term affects are still with us too - if you really want to compete now, you need plastics. Warlord, Steamforged and
Hawk are all using plastic starter sets now. Simply because GW has made it so that's how the market buys new games. Which obviously makes it difficult for us tiny wargames businesses to compete. The number of smaller ranges/games being bought out by the likes of Warlord, Element, and Troll Trader is testament to that.

Must be nice to be GW. They make a decision, and it really does change the market.

I'm not going to continue with it so it doesn't need another thread, but just regarding the marketing / brand management side that I do definitely know about, one of the biggest mistakes Companies make in marketing / understanding their market is the self fulfilling prophecy, and it's been made much worse by databases and analysis (tracking trend, identifying targets / opportunities, and predicting) that modern marketeers rely on but that literally can't think outside the box. They're applauded for how much money they prove to make from homing in on & optimising opportunities while completely blind to all the other opportunities they're not seeing and money they're not making. And markets change, people in them cycle out then back in again (meaning databases and architect type marketeers can't really predict long term, they don't have the length of data to model it or the instinct to feel it), GW are positioning themselves in a way that they will be out of any potential loop like that, very few that have previously cycled out due to middle-life demands & constraints (when GW did metal) will come back to them for plastic (even though sentimentality will make them want to), they'll be frustrated, go elsewhere and reduce GW's market share, and potentially harm their brand. Because there's a very real danger for GW that those 80's people, their original customers who made them, effectively their peers with as much right to say what is and isn't gaming & miniatures as GW have, conclude very badly about them & their plastic, they could be influential opinion formers and turn GW's cheap false constructed ground into mud. And that's certainly where I am, I'm past being disappointed, having seen the Immolater plastic gunner that looks like the one out of my brothers Airfix Lancaster kit when I was 7, I just think GW's direction and new product is laughably cheap & childish, it's like being back in the 1970's. People will help GW dress that up as something else but it's Emperor's clothes.

Another thing, I don't get populations that want things their way at the exclusion of other ways, there's no real problem at all GW doing metal alongside plastic, only upsides (certainly for their brand integrity and image of quality). If they're that confident the new generations do want plastic, that strategy is in the bag, they don't have to extend it to the point of expecting adults to want kids things, those that are happy with plastic don't benefit because their hobby world will be smaller with less depth & dimensions for no metal / metal people, everyone will be the poorer.

edit - I guess like everyone, I formed my principles when I was young, I was effectively educated by Ian Livingstone, Bryan Ansell etc as to what gaming and miniatures were about. Nothing will shift me from that original source opinion. And the first plastics Citadel did, a rubbery giant / troll and then plastic Orcs were ok because they were just meant to augment, give volume by being cost effective which was fine. Full on plastic is GW changing their story in a way that conflicts with what they used to say and educated a generation to believe (or exploited the fact they already believed it from their bad experience with 1970's toys), that is an issue that is likely to come back and bite them.

[Momotaro]

There is only one true art form:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting

Everything else is just pale imitation.

I expect there were cavemen carving their little Venus figurines out of stone who poo-pooed their contemporaries who worked in bone...

[Andrew Rae]

It's probably not worth pointing out that the decade old plastic immolator is hardly representative of modern GW quality.

[Momotaro]

It's probably not worth pointing out that the decade old plastic immolator is hardly representative of modern GW quality.

Indeed - I used to have to putty, pin and superglue many of the big GW metal models for the neighbours' kids because they were horrific to build... and the staff in the local GW could often be seen doing the same for an anxious parent on a Saturday morning.

I like metal, and I like one-piece models, but plastic is in many ways a better material for many models, especially big ones.  The plastic Mordor troll was a godsend after the metal one with the massive pins and gap filling you had to put into the model.  And mixed metal-and-plastic kids were even worse.  When I was 8, I was building Airfix tanks more complicated and fiddly than all but the biggest and newest GW models, and GW starter sets have been reduced-part and snap-fit for at least a decade.

Ach, the hobby is big enough for all of us to get what we want out of it these days, so more power to all your projects chaps and chapettes!

I certainly miss the days when GW's was the spiritual successor to Carry On films...

[Lovejoy]

It's probably not worth pointing out that the decade old plastic immolator is hardly representative of modern GW quality.

Too right - you only have to look at things like the Space Hulk plastics to see they really know what they're doing now. Dynamic, detailed, and only two parts per model! Just so impressive.

[horridperson]

@Momotaro

I have fond memories of metal as well; I learned most of my hobby skills by trial and error in the lead days (A soldering iron is not a sculpting tool ).  Like you I find that practical hindsight trumps nostalgia and I appreciate the variety of kits that are available and the new technologies that have evolved the medium.

I enjoyed the direction the thread had taken in the last bit (regarding "new" aesthetics and technologies) and wasn't having much luck articulating how I wanted to comment/ enframe my comment until I read your post and it gave me a moment of clarity.

CAD is just another tool.  It seems clinical or overwrought but there is as much potential there as there is working in a traditional manner.  I know a Copplestone sculpt because he was the artist not because he used a particular sculpting tool.  I think the CAD sculptors need to find their voices as artists.  New and unfamiliar tools don't do a job deftly; It just takes familiarity to use them well a sensibility to know when embellishments shouldn't be added to a figure simply because they can.

I enjoy the new plastics because conversions are child's play;  I can work with a speed and fluidity that won't interrupt my process.  The other quality I really enjoy is the weightless of models where I don't have to concern myself with engineering counterbalances on a base and other foolishness if I want a flying figure.  I still love metals as well.  I'm simply attracted to the work of any sculptor who captures my imagination.  I'm looking forward to the next few years as more CAD artists find their feet.  

[Ulfhednar]

It's probably not worth pointing out that the decade old plastic immolator is hardly representative of modern GW quality.

The metal gunner & guns off the original immolator are far superior, and those plastic cherubs on the new one look so plastic they're like something you'd see outside a Casino in Las Vegas, or in Rhyl. If I was going bother I'd be getting the old immolator with metal parts (specifically the driver) off ebay (and probably pay more than twice as much as GW's current one), or just the metal parts on their own and apply them to the new immolator, but it's too much hassle considering it's too limited anyway with the top boss in resin only and future releases in plastic.

Re CAD yes it has huge potential and it's exciting what it might mean, but I suspect it may end up like digital effects have in TV & film where it's just being done because it's so easy and so without any real understanding of art involved, it's driving out the art & replacing it with entertainment. The last Hobbit films were a good example, so much over the top just for the sake of it and because it was easy, and in the hands of people without the artistic depth or eye to get it right. A lot like modern marketing, databases have put marketing into the hands of accountants / farmers rather than real marketeers / hunters and it's making everything so bland, samey and limited. Things like the new Battlestar Galatica's were awesome with their special effects, Caprica even managed a really decent story line and lots of atmosphere, but they don't get close to the art that's in the old B&W's like Night of the Demon, when it was just proper artists doing the best they could. It was hand forging, like Saxon's did, like Dwarves, Elves, and Citadel used to.

[Gibby]

You make some good points, Ulfhednar, but don't pretend your opinions are facts backed up with hard data; they aren't. I'm sure there are is a demographic of people you could get into a graph who gave up on GW for the same reasons as you, but it doesn't really mean the way things are now are OBJECTIVELY wrong. There are some amazing plastic miniatures out there that people have done some great work with, and some hideous metal miniatures out there that those same fantastic painters couldn't even make look good. All this talk of "proper artists" and such just comes across as sheer snootiness, and it's grating. No offence.

I think the CAD sculptors need to find their voices as artists.  New and unfamiliar tools don't do a job deftly; It just takes familiarity to use them well a sensibility to know when embellishments shouldn't be added to a figure simply because they can.

I agree. I think the "this is clearly off a computer" look is slowly disappearing - Games Workshop are particularly getting very good at combining digital sculpting with characterful output.

[Andrew Rae]

The metal gunner & guns off the original immolator are far superior, and those plastic cherubs on the new one look so plastic they're like something you'd see outside a Casino in Las Vegas, or in Rhyl. If I was going bother I'd be getting the old immolator with metal parts (specifically the driver) off ebay (and probably pay more than twice as much as GW's current one), or just the metal parts on their own and apply them to the new immolator, but it's too much hassle considering it's too limited anyway with the top boss in resin only and future releases in plastic.

Yes. Yes they are inferior. But you've missed my point...

Edit: Also, it's not new for GW to replace something with an inferior product. They did it all through the 90s with metal figures replacing metal. 90s chaos warriors are dire.

They still do, too; in terms of composition, the new plastic Kharn and Eldrad are not as good as the originals (Jes Goodwin is a hard act to follow) though I'd argue the new Ahriman improves things due to fewer (or rather different) constraints on the sculptor.

The difference is that now, unless you have a moral objection to plastic figures, the inferiority is not due to the manufacturing process, as was the case with the plastic immolator. Which is old.

[Momotaro]

Re CAD yes it has huge potential and it's exciting what it might mean, but I suspect it may end up like digital effects have in TV & film where it's just being done because it's so easy and so without any real understanding of art involved

Francis Ford Coppola(?) has said that computer effects allow the director to become an artist to and build EXACTLY the shot he wants.  He's also said that overuse of CGI shows in the film.  But here's a video that shows how much compositing and FX go into even soap operas:



Point is it's not all superhero films and Transformers where the FX are almost impossibly fast to follow - used judiciously, you won't even notice.  You have to look hard to see how many blood effects have been replaced by CGI these days (cuts down the laundry bills), how many locations don't even exist, and look really closely to see that many of the clouds of dust kicked up by bullets in Black Hawk Down are the same CGI effect repeated.

Happens in minis too - GW had a phase where they did CAD fur as raised triangles and it didn't look right without some very clever painting.  A lot of the newest stuff though has a naturalness and dynamism that you'd struggle to do in metal.  And GW was doing the Too Many Skullz thing long before they moved to CAD

And again I'll say - if you prefer metal, I can see why and more power to you, sir!  You'll have a fine collection to pass down the years.  But I do love plastic too.

Can't wait to see what you do with the upcoming Warlord Dredd line!

[Chico]

Hmmm I'm also in the camp that I really don't enjoy plastic miniatures or even multi-part, I do own many thousands but they just ain't my first choice.

For me It comes down too the fact I really hate sticking together/prepping, now and again for conversions are fine but I much rather spend my time painting then dropping fiddly bits (Sometimes glue covered) on a cat hair laced carpet.

I also like the weight of metal so much so I've taken to basing all plastics needing round bases on 2p's

[Andrew Rae]

I filled the hollow belly of a placcy nurgle champ with miscast lady heads so he matched the weight to my metal nurgle warband. He's got about 8 or 9 heads inside him.

[stone-cold-lead]

I'm assembling some Infinity models (metals!!!) and wishing they were as easy and enjoyable to put together as the GW Stormcast Eternal (evil plastic!!!) I built the other day. I like metal models but sometimes they make me want to jab my scalpel in my neck and end it all in a tribute to Khorne.

[Gibby]

 

[Mason]

I filled the hollow belly of a placcy nurgle champ with miscast lady heads so he matched the weight to my metal nurgle warband. He's got about 8 or 9 heads inside him.

Greedy bugger!
That does seem rather apt, though.