Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Inkpaduta on 10 August 2017, 01:03:23 AM
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I know that most gamers prime their figures. But, there are some who do not.
Does anyone here not prime? After painting for 20+ years I am thinking about
not priming so was interested to hear from those who don't and what you think.
Thanks
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If you are using acrylic paints you need to prime otherwise the paint has nothing to adhere to. What benefit would you gain from not priming?
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I don't know, I have painted a few metal figures with that type of paint. They have come out fine.
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The paint may go on okay, but it won't stay there...a game or two and you may see paint flaking off (and make sure you don't eat greasy snacks while gaming!).
For the microscopic cost and amount of time I can't imagine a reasonable reason to not prime miniatures.
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That said,whenever I hear people say 'so the paint can adhere to something' I always come away thinking, 'so if the paint won't adhere so well to the bare metal and rub off, why is the undercoat so magically able to do this?'
Some questions are not worth asking and it's just best to nod your head sagely in agreement.
Primer coatings are commonly differently formulated from regular paints and prioritise other performance aspects. For example, there's a greater part of resin and binding agent than pigment and carrier medium. It's rather noticeable with primer sprays compared to brush-on primers, e.g. Vallejo. Actual paints prioritise an even, full-tone paint layer that provides colour brilliance, whereas primers are supposed to stick to the underlying surface, first and foremost.
Of course, if you undercoat using actual paint, that will most likely just rub off.
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I don't think I've ever used an actual 'primer' on figures, although I usually do a black or white undercoat, and for soft plastics I prepare them with undiluted PVA. The paint still appears to be sticking to them.
My old Airfix stuff from the 1970s is all painted in enamels without the benefit of any sort of undercoat, and I can't see any obvious evidence of the the paint having rubbed of although there are some flaking rifle barrels.
I can't help thinking that there a lot of urban myths attached to painting, it is paint after all, it is supposed to stick to things.
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I don't think I've ever used an actual 'primer' on figures, although I usually do a black or white undercoat, and for soft plastics I prepare them with undiluted PVA. The paint still appears to be sticking to them.
In this case, the PVA acts as a primer coat. As the name implies, PVA is a vinyl-alcoholic compound, and vinyl is also a key component of the Vallejo brush-on primer. The glue being sticky rather than a paint, it does its job of sticking to the base material while making it easier for the following paint layers to stick (as compared to the Polyethylene or PVC I think soft plastic figures are made of).
My old Airfix stuff from the 1970s is all painted in enamels without the benefit of any sort of undercoat, and I can't see any obvious evidence of the the paint having rubbed of although there are some flaking rifle barrels.
That might have to do with using hydrophobic paint on hydrophobic plastic. But I am no trained chemistry professional, so I won't speculate.
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Enamel paint is oil based so will stick, acrylics are water-based and won't.
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Way back in my youth I painted my first metal RPG figures with acrylics and no undercoat/primer. Within a few months of use patches of bare metal started showing through. Before that I'd only painted Airfix plastics with enamals (again without undercoat) but not had that problem, other than the more bendy bits like the ends of rifles.
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Primer coatings are commonly differently formulated from regular paints and prioritise other performance aspects. For example, there's a greater part of resin and binding agent than pigment and carrier medium. It's rather noticeable with primer sprays compared to brush-on primers, e.g. Vallejo. Actual paints prioritise an even, full-tone paint layer that provides colour brilliance, whereas primers are supposed to stick to the underlying surface, first and foremost.
Of course, if you undercoat using actual paint, that will most likely just rub off.
That's a German explanation for you! Hard to argue with.
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Have never used primer. Hasn't ever been a problem. Not once.
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When, many years ago, our club started doing War of the Roses we did not undercoat the knights.
They are mainly metal armoured, so one of our group came up with the following:-
1)File away any cast lines.
2)Shine figures with a wire brush (the small, clean your suede boots, type).
3)Coat with (the then new) Tamia 'Smoke' Which both sealed the shine & emphasised all the joints, rivets, chain mail etc.
4)Then paint any 'non metal' bits such as faces (if visor is up) Tabards etc.
These lasted, with a lot of club use, for years.
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I have done that as well, ink washes over burnished metal. Looks absolutely fantastic for fantasy or medieval figures. And since the edges are supposed to be shiny anyway, you won't notice a nick.
Not sure how they'd take varnish (I varnish my pulp figures, but when I played fantasy I didn't varnish).
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It's not that paint won't stick, it's that paints are formulated for different properties.
Primers are formulated to stick/bond much better than surface coat paints for example. Those formulated for automotive use normally have a much higher solvent content than other spray paints, which helps them to go on evenly, "shrink" onto the surface better as they cure, and in some cases etch slightly into smooth surfaces to bond better to them. The actual chemical formulation of the binder is usually much tougher too, and can take a day or two of drying before the full cure is achieved (and that's why I spray prime my models at least 24h before I paint them).
Often, old metal models which have been primed and stripped a few times show some evidence of slight surface pitting - and whilst some of this is undoubtedly from the casting of the models and the subsequent stripping, some if it is also from the surface being lightly etched by the primer coats.
On plastic models, the solvent conetnt of the primer actually melts/dissolves a very thin layer of plastic, bonding the paint to the model pretty much permanently. Although you can strip plastic models, you can usually tell if a proper primer was used because it won't come off. If ordinary spray was used, the surface may be a little rough, and the model may still be stained, but the paint will still be mostly removable - because the formulation is different and the solvent levels are lower, so they don't bond as well.
Now, should you prime your models?
If they are intended for display only, and if they are not lead models, you don't strictly need to. (Similarly, you don't strictly need to seal/varnish them afterwards either). Also, if you use metal models and intend to have the metal self-finished for armoured areas and such, then you obviously don't need to prime (although the sealer coat is usually pretty important).
If they are intended for any sort of handling, and they are to be painted all over, then I'd strongly recommend priming. (...And also sealing/varnishing).
Although if you are careful, and if the paint jobs are table-top level, I cannot see skipping the primer and/or sealer having a major adverse effect as long as you don't mind a little regular touching up. This is especially true if you are not the perfectionist I am!
That said, I have acquired thousands of second-hand models over the years, and stripped all but about a dozen of them. What's interesting is that the models that were properly primed and properly sealed were generally in better condition when I received them and were also normally harder to strip clean than those that were not.
Therefore, although careful handling obviously helps to preserve the paintjob, it is also clear to me that proper preparation and protection of the figures makes them much more resistant to any scuffs or chips.
There is also a difference between metal and plastic models; in the same way that plastic glue used on plastic models is permanent, plastic models properly primed are easily the most resistant to any scuffs or chips - in fact, short of damaging the model, paint applied over a primer and sealed against greasy fingers is pretty much indestructible. Metal models on the other hand scuff very easily, but are much more resistant (though nowhere near plastic model levels) if properly primed and sealed.
Finally, enamels are worth a mention on their own. Old enamels that are very well cured are extremely difficult to remove without the use of some extraordinarily nasty thinners/strippers. On plastics, they are therefore pretty much permanent, whilst on metals they are removable with difficulty. That said, gloss enamels are much tougher then matte ones, and any salient points on models are still prone to scuffs. Enamels are also not flexible, so any parts of models that might be prone to bending (like a pointing sword or a bow) tend to have the paint crack off the local area when its stressed.
In conclusion then:
- Using primer for better paint adhesion is not a "myth" or "urban legend". It is made and formulated to do what it says it does.
- Not all spray primers are actually primers, even if they are marketed as such to hobbyists. (*coughGWcough*).
- Using a primer in conjunction with a good sealer will protect your paintjob significantly better than not using either.
- Primers bond much better to plastic models than to metal models.
- Enamels are much more resistant to being rubbed off/greasy fingers than acrylics, but are not as flexible as acrylics. Thin coats of either paint is still the best suggestion anyway!
- Priming and sealing are pretty quick and easy operations that don't cost much money per model. For gaming models, the effort/cost is normally well-rewarded.
- If you don't prime, you can still get a superior paint adhesion on metal models by lightly brushing them all over with a small brass wire brush and then washing and drying them carefully before painting. This provides you with a clean and lightly keyed surface that helps even ordinary paint stick better.
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I've never used primer. I base coat with black, white, grey, whatever, as required with a brush using standard model paints because it gives a better look to the later layers of paint.
Nothing flakes, chips or rubs off. I've been doing this for nearly 40 years and I still have some of my earliest miniatures (not, flaking, rubbed bare or chipped).
I don't varnish any more either, haven't done that for years unless I'm looking for a specific effect- gloss usually for giant eyeballs etc.
Paint how you want with what works for you, it'll be fine. If you don't like a result you get for any reason then change what you do to compensate. Simples.
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I undercoat my models with Auto primer (from Halfords, nice and affordable), and then touch up the areas that the spray misses with regular black model paint (vallejo). So I don't know if that's considered 'proper' priming or not? Seems to work, and I haven't ever given it much thought.
Here's a question though for those of you who know the technicalities of painting better than me.... Why when I spray my plastic models the paint pretty much covers everywhere (with just a little careful second spray afterwards from underneath to get the inside of the legs etc).... But on metal models, it NEVER does, and always has to be followed with some brush-on paint? Do my metal models not like my spray primer, and it's not sticking to them? I'm talking about the hard-to-reach nooks and crannies.... on plastics they are covered really well, on metals not at all.
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I undercoat with a thinned paint, black or grey depending on what I am painting, not sure I would call it primed
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Paint how you want with what works for you, it'll be fine. If you don't like a result you get for any reason then change what you do to compensate. Simples.
This.
I use brush-on enamel paint as a primer and it always works for me, so why change?
I didn't know that some do not use any primer, but as Mr Matakishi doesn't have problems it must work.
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Lead has a slippy surface and is best primed with a specialist primer designed for such metals. Hammerite do a special metals primer.
Pewter takes paint readily, I am told you don't need to prime, but I do.
Plastic is the easiest to take paint, though I prime with Vallejo polyurethane (surface primer).
I would coat all figures with varnish and only paint with acrylic.
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Charlie, because of plastic molding techniques, there is less "relief" to the models. Deep undercuts are not possible due to the unforgiving 2-part metal mold. Metal models use vulcanized rubber, and are somewhat flexible, allowing for more relief. This means there are more nooks and crannies on the models, and they are deeper, making it harder for the sprays to reach. Throw in the before-mentioned bit about sptay primers "biting" into plastic models, and you can see how spray primers cover plastics better.
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I've never used primer. I base coat with black, white, grey, whatever, as required with a brush using standard model paints because it gives a better look to the later layers of paint.
Nothing flakes, chips or rubs off. I've been doing this for nearly 40 years and I still have some of my earliest miniatures (not, flaking, rubbed bare or chipped).
I've taken to using spray primer recently (the GW stuff, as it's readily available - even Blackwells sells it!), but I can't say that I've noticed any real difference between that and simply painting the models with GW's Ceramite White, which I did for the first few hundred miniatures I painted over the last three years. The only reason I use it is for speed.
When I was a kid, I never used spray primer and just used white or black paint out of a pot - Skull White or Chaos Black, or whatever it was. As a teenager, I undercoated these fellows (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=77384.msg954280#msg954280) (before painting them badly!), and they've stood up pretty well to loads of games since (often with some fairly rough handling by children). They are varnished, though: I suspect that makes much more of difference to durability than priming.
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I don't doubt that there are scientific reasons why proper primer sticks to things better, but as Makatishi says, whatever works for you.
For the last twenty years or so I've done a black or white undercoat, generally in GW Chaos black or Skull white, mainly as it suits my painting style.
Soft plastics I do a PVA undercoat to stiffen them up a bit and ensure better adhesion (this doesn't work on some of the HaT figures which are made of a an awful greasy, rubbery plastic to which PVA won't stick, but bizarrely normal acrylic paint does fine).
I often don't bother to undercoat vehicles, just slap the base colour straight on. It partly depends on scale and what they are made of, but when I do undercoat, I'll spray them black ten mist them with white from about 2' up (thank you Dr Faustus painting clinic). Resin always gets an undercoat, metal usually does, plastic often doesn't.
Anything painted before 1997 doesn't have an undercoat, primer, varnish or anything else.
I've largely given up varnishing unless it is to fit in with some existing stuff, over decals or if the inkwash has dried a bit gloss.
Out of that lot, the only paint loss I've seen has been some barrel flaking on some old Airfix figures done in enamels, and a batch of Emhar soft plastics which didn't get the PVA treatment.
I have a horrible feeling that I've got so much stuff it doesn't get handled enough to suffer wear and tear.... ;) Having everything based helps I guess.
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I used to prime everything with skull white back when I first started painting stuff. All my (badly) painted Heroquest plastics are primed this way and most of my other early stuff was too.
My completely unprofessional opinion would be that the formula of most acrylic 'miniature paints' is quite close to primers formulation too and one could happily paint that straight on to miniatures without too much difference. Some specifically labeled 'primers' are rubbish. Citadel Smelly Primer seemed to be a lumpier thick Skull White.
I have tried using spray primers of various makes, including Halfords primers on both plastic and metal models with mixed results and personally have concluded that the variables of spraying and waiting for the 'right' weather to prime them in are not really worth the hassle when I can use Vallejo surface primer with a spot of flat base mixed in and achieve a decent finish from the comfort my desk, at any time of the day and in all weathers.
I suspect Vallejo surface primers have a bit more of the 'plasticky' stuff in them than the standard Vajello Model colour paints as they probably have less 'plasticky' in them in order to achieve their (usual) flat/mattness. For some reason, I find the smaller bottles of Vallejo primers (17ml) ones often seem to perform less well than the bigger ones.
I find the surface primer only slightly harder to strip from miniatures (with Dettol). I have noticed that older metal miniatures (possibly primed/undercoated with Skull White) were very quick to strip with Dettol.
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Paint will stick to paint (unless applied on top of a hard gloss ) better than it will stick to metal or plastic. You can call it a a primer, base coat, undercoat or whatever. It might be ink, paint, specially formulated primer, pva, or anything you want but it does the same job - giving top layers somthimg adhere to. It doesn't matter what type of paint you use, this principle applies in every case. Some paints cure harder than others and so may take knocks better without showing the bare metal underneath and if you use a multi-layer "system" something under there is acting as a primer, even if you haven't painted it black, white etc. The final coat, varnish is a sealant, keeping everything safe and adding a durable protective clear coat. An ink wash may perform the same job, but won't be as hard as varnish.
Having worked for a paint manufacturer (industrial/decorative) in a past life alongside the QC team and investigated when paint's been incorrectly applied or has "failed" it was usually poor surface prep and priming which was the cause.
When I was a kid I didn't know of such things I didn't undercoat and applied basic colours onto the bare metal. Didn't know about varnish etc. Result, worn paint in time with bare metal showing at elbows, spears, corners, flaking paint on shafts and bows etc. Properly prepped and "primed" this won't happen.
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Provost! Take note of the non-primers, take them out behind the shed and have them shot!
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Provost! Take note of the non-primers, take them out behind the shed and have them shot!
Shootings too good fer 'em!
I'm another Halfords spray primer. I can't imagine ever painting a non primed figure.
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Part of the problem IMO is that a lot of hobby primers aren't really any better than paint when it comes to chipping and wear resistance. If you want a proper primer and not a placebo, you kinda have to do your homework and not just pick up whatever's cheap, convenient, or made by your favorite/familiar paint brands.
Also I think a lot of people probably apply the same standard to judging whether their paint is adhering well as they do for the quality of their paint jobs in general. Different people put the bar at different heights, and in discussion everyone words their standards in relation to being "good enough" rather than against an objective measure. But everyone unconsciously assumes their standard is, if not objective, at least shared by a majority on a "common sense" basis. Everyone ends up arguing past each other 'cause they're assuming everyone's more or less referring to the same yardstick, when in reality they're all over the place.
So based on my own experiences with paints and primers, when someone says they don't prime, and "have never had any problems", I immediately suspect that they do have what I would consider problems, they just either don't notice them, or don't consider them bad enough to rate mentioning.
Cross that with what I commented in my first paragraph, and you probably end up with a lot of people who've only ever experienced placebo primers that're no better than paints, and if their personal bar for "good enough" is at or below what paints can deliver, that makes primer appear extraneous to them.
That said, I don't see why anyone who basecoats wouldn't prime. Primers come in different colors, so pick one that's the base color you need, and use that. If you're doing that, you're not complicating things by adding a step or going out of your way to prime. You're basically getting the extra "better safe that sorry" security of primer for free, so why wouldn't you?
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I used to undercoat my figures with thinned white paint because it seemed to bring up the base colours better. Then I started black washing the white to help me pick out the detail better. This is what I still do although I use Vallejo ghost grey surface primer instead of the white paint.
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I always prime with acrylic gesso, and I haven't had a single figure with the paint chipped.
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I undercoat using artist's acrylic, and don't have any problems with paint flaking or chipping (it also works well on soft plastic figures).