Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pulp => Topic started by: Doc Twilight on March 27, 2009, 09:12:22 PM
-
I've seen a few posts here, and in a few other places, regarding thoughts of an ACW in the 1930s, and I thought it might be helpful to get a general discussion going, as there are several approaches taking place out there. Cory for example, has done some very nice Lindy's Legion types just recently. I know that one of the frustrations for some of us doing the BCW outside the UK is that we aren't as well connected to British geography, history, or political reality, so it can be a bit difficult to imagine appropriately realistic factions, events, etc.
I've talked about this with several folks, even briefly toyed with starting a discussion group, but this seems like a logical place to start.
So what are your thoughts on an American component to this slowly emerging trend of hypothetical but historically plausible wars?
My thoughts always center around the Bonus March, MacArthur, and the "Business Plot" (this was the scheme to overthrow Roosevelt and replace him with a military dictatorship). I see a great deal of Socialist (not Communist, but Socialist) sympathy among the Bonus Marchers, with some Bolsheivist/Communist sentiment in other parts of the country, along with an equal amount of right wing sympathy. Throw in the religious activists and radio evangelists of the day (Amy Semple MacPhearson, the famous radio priest who's name I forget but was censored by the Church for his anti-semitic ravings, etc), include the plight of the African American in the South, and you've got quite a potent mixture there.
Just wanting to hear your thoughts, ideas, in general. Maybe something interesting will spring out of all this.
-Doc
-
I always thoughtPhilip Roth's [wiki]The Plot Against America[/wiki] would be a great way to start a alternate US history collection. Jewish Defence Leagues, KKK, Silvershirts, Chicago Socialists etc.
-
I always thoughtPhilip Roth's [wiki]The Plot Against America[/wiki] would be a great way to start a alternate US history collection. Jewish Defence Leagues, KKK, Silvershirts, Chicago Socialists etc.
Sounds a good read. Thanks for the link!
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here
A slower read than Roth's book, Sinclair Lewis' novel It Can't Happen Here is a good period take on the situation.
The 1920's saw the red scare and labor crisis around the country, many so intense that federal troops and even aircraft were called in. Much of the value in the Roosevelt administration's New Deal was not necessarily in improving the economy but in making the masses feel that the government, long seen as a tool of industry, was finally on their side. Thus the administration needs removed and is weakest at two points - when first starting out in '33 and again in '37 when the economy stalls a second time. The first time period seems to be the best point to start breaking from real history.
For our games so far we have gone with the '32 march having turned far more violent. Simply having more guns amongst the marchers (most had been sold for food) might have done it or one of the fires getting out of control and trapping families in the occupied federal buildings maybe. However one chooses the eyes and ears of the country were on DC that week and a higher casualty list along with a weak president Hoover and an ambitious MacArthur could have galvanized the sides. Follow it up with some sort of Business Plot seizing the presidency and the stage is set.
-
Oh, the priest was father Coughlin. There are recordings of him at the Library of Congress website.
-
As it was a moral/economic issue that caused the first civil war, it might not be difficult to believe that another moral/economic issue would cause a second.
Prohibition - the war could last from 1920 to 1933. If one could figure a way to tie it into early 20th century American Bolshevism...
-
I second the recommendation for the Sinclair Lewis book. Lewis had a fictional state where many of his novels are set (Babbitt Elmer Gantry Arrowsmith) and they provide very workable NPCs. Also the Minute Men, Lewis' version of Hitlers SA are easy to model, just put pulp era weapons in the hands of ACW Union Cavalry (you want the cleaner idealised version of the uniform) and cut off the saber scabbards. ;)
-
Well, whatever you guys come up with, I think that it's obligatory that a Texas faction be included. The Republic would be more than happy to secede from the union at that time.
-
Well, whatever you guys come up with, I think that it's obligatory that a Texas faction be included. The Republic would be more than happy to secede from the union at that time.
With the help of Mexican troops & volunteers, their warcry being: "Remember the Alamo, YES we can!!!!!"
-
The KKK would be a major faction. In the 20s at least they were large, haveing 10,000 member marches in Wash D.C., decideing the election of Congressmen and U.S. Senators from states like Indiana.
You might look at the Harry Turtledove series, American Empire, in which his world has the convederacy surviving the American Civil War. He has an antiblack "Freedom" party, similar to the Nazi party, arising in depression era south.
As FDR was in a wheel chair for much of his presidency and his staff, with the media, conspireing to keep that info from the US public, perhaps one of the deciding events is that that "secret" gets out and actually does effect an election, in either 32 or 36.
The bonus march was confronted by MacArther, along with Eisenhower, Patton and Bradley. Any of those could lead a faction, that is opposed to the others, particularly if they were to blame the "bonus march fiasco" on another.
There was a Marine General that was to be part of the Business plan. Lindburgh was stongly isolationist and pro Nazi, as was Joe Kennedy, US embassador to England.
Frankly, looking at the history, it is surprising the US did not fall apart. That era makes our current troubles look simple.
-
Let's not forget we nearly had our civil war. Bloody Thurday & the general strike in 1934. Or the Canfield war Striking miners verses Pinkertons. A freind of mine has been thinking about doing a Bloody Thursday scenario. West coast longshoremen verses police & national guard.
-
Going into a second ACW and forgetting Crimson Skies?
-
Well, whatever you guys come up with, I think that it's obligatory that a Texas faction be included. The Republic would be more than happy to secede from the union at that time.
With the help of Mexican troops & volunteers, their warcry being: "Remember the Alamo, YES we can!!!!!"
lol
-
Going into a second ACW and forgetting Crimson Skies?
I played this as a video game (one of the five or so I've played in the last few years)... was their ever an rpg branch? it seems like it'd tie in really well to this/give it a good basis.
-
Well, whatever you guys come up with, I think that it's obligatory that a Texas faction be included. The Republic would be more than happy to secede from the union at that time.
Texas? What part of New York City is that? ???
-
Going into a second ACW and forgetting Crimson Skies?
I played this as a video game (one of the five or so I've played in the last few years)... was their ever an rpg branch? it seems like it'd tie in really well to this/give it a good basis.
IT was a table top flyer game long before it got on the PC if memory serves.
-
Rudi broght my attention to this train of thought up here on the LAF,
If you're thinking about a civil war in the 1930's that's one thing. But if you set it in the 1920's that different, from the standpoint of Mexican governance. See, some historians claim that the Mexican Revolution ran from 1910 - 1920. But there are others who contend that it ran from 1910 - 1930. Based on their theory that it wasn't until 1930 that a Mexican president left office without the aid of gunfire. So if you want to get Mexican units involved, then have a look at the 1920's. That's the time of the Cristeros Revolt. They were very conervative, mostly rural, Catholics in opposition to what that considered to be a godless, leftwing federal government in Mexico City. They did manage to assasinate President, previously General, Alvaro Obregon.
Perhaps of some use to someone?
-
Informative, and thanks for that. I knew about this era in history, and a rule set would have to reflect the time span. My reference to the Texans, however, is actually ironic: there are some who live here, going all the way back to the initial treaty with the Republic, that would love to see us become an independent nation again, and a second ACW would be a great platform for them to kick the secession movement back into high gear.
-
For a really wierd version, I remember reading a rather forgetable book called the Texas-Israeli war. As I recall, the US gov.t in a post WWIII setting hires the Israelis to put down a Texas revolt. Written in the 80s it was set in the "distant" furture of 1999 or so.
-
But there's another reason for Texas: After the Civil War, the headquarters of the Confederacy moved to Canton, TX; home of the largest flea market in america, and about 20 minutes from the town I live in, Wills Point. There's an historical monument out in from of the courthouse about this.
Any 2d ACW, any time period, and the Texans are. There's too much pride. I can tell you that some people in this community are definitely for this, and it's weird to be around those people.
I've read the Texas-Israeli war, back in the early 80's. Interesting reading, though not remarkable.
-
Lots to choose from here. A question: what type of figures would be best for U.S. Army in the mid-1930s, as far as uniform, headgear, weapons etc. Regards,
-
Personally, Pocta, I've been leaning towards WW1-era uniforms myself, as the cut is close enough to work, and some of the National Guard would be uniformed pretty closely along those lines anyway, at least in the early to mid 1930s. Brigade Games makes some great stuff for the WW1 and post WW1 US Army.
Lon at Brigade also does some good Interwar period US Marines in his "Banana Wars" range.
Another good range would be the US Marines put out by Pulp Figures.
http://pulpfigures.com/cat.php?range=Americans&catalog=PYS&custID=692321551921239920574
I have some of them, and may use more. Lots of possibilities there. I'm thinking very seriously about making them the Indiana National Guard. They would also, obviously, work pretty well as Marines, too. I'm also thinking those sailors have a lot of potential uses.
-Doc
-
The guy who wrote that Texas vs. Israel book is the owner of the largest chain of comic book stores in the US called Lone Star Comics. He's a bit bent but a nice guy. See, ya learned something today so go out and support your local successors today.
Brian
-
Thanks, Doc.
As far as the backstory goes, my starting point is also the Bonus Army of 1932, which indirectly leads to civil war, as follows: some of the marchers are armed, and fight back when MacArthur's troops try to clear out the marchers' camps. Even though casualties are relatively light, the spectacle of firefights in DC is terrifying to many, and the press fans these flames by (incorrectly) reporting that Reds are behind the violence, and that this was an attempt at revolution. MacArthur is hailed as the Hero of D.C.
One consequence is that when the Business Plot begins to take shape the following year (after Roosevelt's election and the 100 days, neither of which is prevented by the red scare that followed the Bonus March violence), it's MacArthur, and not Smedley Butler, who is picked for the man on horseback role. (In reality, Butler alleges that MacArthur was the Business Plotters' second choice.) MacArthur, unlike Butler, is willing to participate, out of a combination of hubris, fear that the Communists really will attempt a revolution, and genuine concern that Roosevelt won't be able to pull the country out of the Depression.
As in reality, the Business Plotters in this time line are patient and bide their time. The first step is for MacArthur to build up a paramilitary organization, heavily subsidized by the Plot's wealthy backers. MacArthur's Legion is informally allied with the many other fascist organizations that proliferated during the 1930s (Black Legion, Silver Shirts, KKK etc.) The development of these groups, of course, prompts the left to develop its own paramilitary organization(s).
All of this is taking place in the context of deepening Depression and industrial conflict during the period 1933-34. While Roosevelt continues to enjoy the support of many, the left and right view him with a mixture of contempt and fear, each side believing him to be a witting or unwitting stooge of the other.
The stage is set for the Business Plot. MacArthur's Legion marches on Washington in coordination with a business strike and intensive behind the scenes political machinations. Roosevelt is outmaneuvered and MacArthur is installed as Secretary of General Affairs. Roosevelt remains in office as a figure head President; rumors are that he's under lock and key.
And with that, we're off to the races. On one side, MacArthur's Legion, along with other rightwing paramilitaries, and those portions of the (small) U.S. military and National Guard units that side with the government. On the other: the leftist paramilitary units, and military forces allied with them, although some are loyal to Roosevelt, while others want to press forward with revolution. Add to that the various states that want to sit it out against all comers (including Long's Louisiana), international contingents and you've got a real mess on your hands.
-
While some changes had crept into the uniform after WWI, there were still large stockpiles of WWI equipment so I went with the Brigade Marines Doc suggested for my regular troops and WWI Americans to use as National Guard.
-
Interesting setting for a multi-player campaign. You could also add various crimelords/syndicates either becoming allies of particular sides, selling themselves to the highest bidder or out to carve their own empires out of the chaos. Remember that these guys often had access to better weapons than most of the potential opposition and may have been more experienced in urban combat than anyone else.
Then again, there is also the opportunity of basing factions 'over the border', which brings in the potential of Mexican or Canadian (& therefore potentially British) involvement - if only to keep these factions off their soil (even if this does mean fighting them into US territory).
-
Some national guard units still had WWI uniforms & equipment for home service when the USA entered WWII
-
The Maryland State Militia was armed with Kragg Jorgensens at the outbreak of WW2.. So anything's possible.
So far I have been working on the Kentucky Free State. The basic concept is that the state, with one foot in the north and one foot in the south, is probably leaning toward the Constitutionalists (based upon some great ideas I got from another fellow online, who proposes three main blocks: Nationalists, Separatists, and Constitutionalists, along with Reds, and several other interesting flavors), but that is strong dependence upon labor unions (the Mines, Steel Mills, etc) and the influence of a significant agricultural sector have pushed it toward a sort of Anarcho-Socialist situation (note: Socialist, not Communist, so no Commissars, etc.) The small regular forces are taken from a core of National Guard and Regular Army troops, supported by a larger number of militias, irregulars, etc. with an excellent knowledge of the land.
Equipment is a mixture of home-brew stuff and weapons acquired where possible from the French. Military is desegregated.
My crack regulars are comprised of Kentucky veterans of the First World War, thus far, using the Brigade Games Harlem Hellfighters. Militia types are a mix of Anglian SCW Militia and a handful of International Brigade, with Musketeer IRA. Armor support is in the form of the Ford Armored Car from Brigade, and will be joined by a Schneider tank in my next round of painting.
I have also acquired one of Mark Copplestone's Vickers Mediums for use with my Constitutionalists, when I get around to them. Those folks will likely be from my home state of Indiana.
My wife is doing some great Nationalists, using Brigade Games US Marines, supported by Fascist militia provided by the BUF line from Musketeer. She'd also like to do up some Mexicans.
A friend is very intrigued by something to do with Seattle, and is working on some ideas there.
All and all, this is looking quite interesting so far. I've even been able to work up some really interesting flags by playing around with Banner Maker Pro.
I have started a message board specifically for topics related to this whole ACW2 thing. Will post a link in the next day or so if anybody's interested.
-Doc
-
I play with Cory, we went opted for FDR to die somehow, most likely by plane crash. Mac stayed on the goverment side in our version, seeing himself the "savior" of America. The Silver Shirts, the Black Legion all play a large part in upseting the balance as weel as fictional groups such as Lindys Legion. The Organization for the Recognition of Colored Society( lead by Marcus Garvey) I even have big plans Huey Long.
-
Any 2d ACW, any time period, and the Texans are. There's too much pride. I can tell you that some people in this community are definitely for this, and it's weird to be around those people.
I think I'd find that very scary!
We have our share of lunatics over here too
-
Well, whatever you guys come up with, I think that it's obligatory that a Texas faction be included. The Republic would be more than happy to secede from the union at that time.
Yes, there would need to be a Republic of Texas, which even though it is in the American South it is very much it's own country. Also if the current Gov of Texas is an indication there are those who would secede from the USA today. (I suspect the rest of the country wouldn't fight to hard to keep them either)
-
Re an earlier post. Watch "Matewan" for flavour. Strike breaking, not a civil war but not far off.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Matewan-DVD-Chris-Cooper/dp/B00005A3Q5/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1240389288&sr=1-2
-
I think your right, Matewan is an excellent bit of flavor as well as a good movie.
Much of the crisis of the 30's are about traditional institutions appearing to unravel in the face of economic woes - and the union vs management conflicts in the US are an essential facet to this feeling of urgency as the strikes grow ever more violent.
-
Many corporations in the US at that time maintained Security(mercinaries) from some very shifty detective agencies. Didn't behave much different from the orginized crime gangsters.