Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Mako on 14 September 2017, 10:28:22 PM

Title: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Mako on 14 September 2017, 10:28:22 PM

Planning on running some of these in the future, and am curious to see what people think would make them interesting?

Thinking about WWII and Cold War bomber raids.

Seems to me they can be a bit more challenging to get right, especially for multiple players on each side, since play-balance is an issue, but also potentially boredom, and a lack of action if no intercepts are made, or drudgery, if they plod on and on, endlessly. Very different than your usual furball I suspect.

I'm worried that in some cases no intercepts may occur at all, and in others that perhaps they'll be a bit too easy, or might drag on for too long, since some bombers can be difficult to knock down.

Might be possible to work around that a little by having each player responsible for several aircraft, so they've got more to do, and to have several chances at some action occurring. Perhaps, if pairs of aircraft or more are involved in different units, letting each player be the lead commander for one, and then acting as wingmen for the others.

Also thinking of perhaps some sort of map plotting/movement, and/or a planning phase to enhance the above, but keeping it fairly quick and simple, if possible, to keep most of the games focused on the minis on the tables.  Might even use a hex map for the squadron level interceptions, and tracking movement.

I've also seen where teams are sometimes set up, and the players get to participate on both sides of the game, e.g. acting as interceptors and bomber players, and pitted against one another individually, or in groups, to make the games a bit more competitive.  Obviously, you wouldn't be pitted against your own aircraft, so some organizational issues would need to be worked out, so that your interceptor squadrons go up against the bomber squadrons of your mates.  Then, you get points for destroying/damaging aircraft, preventing the bombers from reaching their target(s), destroying the target(s), etc..

In this case, you can rank the players by their scores, in three separate categories (four to six, if you want to be judgmental), e.g. best interceptor unit score, best bomber score, best combined score, and, for the last one, worst overall performance - interceptors, bombers, and combined.

Anyone done something similar, or wanted to do so?

What made or would make the game(s) more interesting for you?

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Westfalia Chris on 15 September 2017, 09:01:29 AM

Quote from: Scurv on 15 September 2017, 06:39:28 AM

the cold war topic you started in the same vein would have got some input from me but a ww2 bomber game I cant help you with.

Please use this one for both periods, since the concepts are similar enough not to warrant double-posting (SAMs, AS-x and MIGs notwithstanding).

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: carlos marighela on 15 September 2017, 09:22:02 AM

 For USAAC European operations you could try the following.

 Any time the USAAC gets a bomb within five miles of their target, the US player may declare that he has placed a bomb in the proverbial pickle barrel. Award the player a major strategic victory.

Any time escorting allied fighters come anywhere within visual distance of an Eighth Airforce formation, the US player must immediately concentrate all fire against them. Any allied fighter shot down counts as two German fighters. At least that's the way the originals did it.  ;)

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: monkeylite on 15 September 2017, 11:22:44 AM

You might wanna check out the boardgame Duel in the Dark, for some ideas (or just buy the game!).

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27048/duel-dark

The rules are available here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/22780/rules-englisheop-finalpdf

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Elbows on 15 September 2017, 02:11:06 PM

I could see this working very well as more of a boardgame...as miniatures simply can't address swarms of Me-109s diving into 200+ bombers.  The problem is genuine interaction beyond a simple dice roll.

Ideally your bombers would have a set route and simply wouldn't deviate from it (allowing really only dice rolls to shoot down planes or accurately drop bombs).  That makes it a bit boring unless you let them design the route, choose the altitude, etc. Perhaps they have a hex mat and they have a starting airbase in England and a target. They have a certain number of hexes worth of fuel and they get to design the route before the game starts.  They reveal the route as they fly it, leaving the German players to re-act?

Add in varying amounts of fighter aircraft available to the German players, bad weather, and they get to pre-plan what hexes they want flak present, etc.  Maybe run two separate bomber groups on different paths to make it more interesting for the German players.  Heck perhaps the players are all German fighter command and flak --- playing against a bomber group run by the GM or AI?

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Mako on 15 September 2017, 07:21:28 PM

Some good points there.  

Thanks for the suggestions, and please keep them coming.

The reason I posted here, and in the Cold War section is that I see the tactics used in many cases to be very different compared to most of WWiI, e.g. single aircraft, or vics of bombers which can wreck whole cities flying around over a continent, vs. squadrons, divisions, or an entire air force setting out for a raid on a single target, like Hamburg, etc..  

Granted, early in the war the RAF sent their bombers out individually, letting the pilots pick their courses, altitudes, and takeoff times, but when they got started in earnest, that ceased.

Not to worry, there are plans for raids over the Soviet Union as well, by Vulcans, B47s, B52s, and others in the works too.  Play balance again will be key for those as well, since depending upon the time period, their defenses will be overmatched by the weaponry available to the US, Great Britain, and France.

After doing a bit of thinking on this, I'm considering map movement of counters for the bombers and interceptors, due to the sheer number of them, and to make life interesting, and then perhaps switching over to the minis for tactical combat.

Right now, thinking about using Airwar: C21 for the miniatures rules.

I'm also thinking about adding in some rules for unreliability of nuke air-to-air missiles, and for the nuke bombs and cruise missiles too.  I played out this a while back, just using a home-made air defense map, and it was pretty interesting, especially when you get a bomber past the fighter and SAM defenses, to actually bomb, and then it ends up being a dud.  That's why they planned for multiple redundancy on key targets, back in the day, since reportedly, some warheads only went off as little as 20% - 25% of the time.  Generally though, 50% - 90% seems to be the norm, depending upon the weapons, and time period, but due to very limited, or no testing at all, even the experts didn't really know the true numbers.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Elbows on 16 September 2017, 02:44:25 AM

Personally I've always wanted to play on a replica board of the control table you see in all the war-rooms.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Plotting_Table.jpg/1280px-Plotting_Table.jpg)

Use the sticks and everything.  Would be super cool.  (even more cool if you added some light up elements, etc.)

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Etranger on 16 September 2017, 02:57:56 AM

Quote from: carlos marighela on 15 September 2017, 09:22:02 AM

For USAAC European operations you could try the following.

 Any time the USAAC gets a bomb within five miles of their target, the US player may declare that he has placed a bomb in the proverbial pickle barrel. Award the player a major strategic victory.
....

And 50 miles for Bomber Command...

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Etranger on 16 September 2017, 02:58:55 AM

The forthcoming PSC game for the BOB has such a board.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Harry Faversham on 16 September 2017, 10:37:05 AM

Quote from: Etranger on 16 September 2017, 02:57:56 AM

And 50 miles for Bomber Command...

Steady on old chap...

(http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/AWSP.01.jpg)

 :o

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: carlos marighela on 16 September 2017, 10:52:18 AM

Quote from: Etranger on 16 September 2017, 02:57:56 AM

And 50 miles for Bomber Command...

Not quite and Bomber Command didn't really pretend that they were doing anything other than area bombing. The septics managed to bomb Zurich and Berne IIRC. Missed the target, missed the city and even missed the entire fucking country the target was located in. Quite an acheivement!

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Harry Faversham on 16 September 2017, 11:18:12 AM

Close formation... A-Able P-Peter (Popsie) and R-Roger.

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/21641326_10213638052854527_1943941382_n.jpg?oh=9831943b2897234c2fd1373f377d7fea&oe=59BF4294)

 :-*

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: zippyfusenet on 16 September 2017, 03:48:47 PM

I recognize those models, Harry. They're Corgi Fighting Machines Lancasters. Just about 1/280 scale, plenty close enough for government work. I luvs me some prepaints.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Vanvlak on 16 September 2017, 03:58:45 PM

This is giving me a sense of deja vu - I seem to remember a very old board-sort of game in which a player piloted one single aeroplane - I think there were 2 options, a British and an American bomber, and I can't remember which aeroplanes or even whether they were WWII or Cold War. I have an idea the game came out in the 1970s at the latest, and was extremely detailed with care taken to reproduce the actions open to each member of the bomber crew. It's out of print, but I have an impression there was a pdf somewhere for the rules and a multitude of cards and a representation of the bomber too.

Trouble is it's a very vague memory - sorry, not much help there...  :( 
I do seem to recollect seeing it on Board Game Geek too, though, if that's any help.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Harry Faversham on 16 September 2017, 04:21:57 PM

Not exactly repaints but I've tickled 'em up a bit for ops...

"Enemy coast ahead Skipper!"

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/21763871_10213639807898402_1426412540_n.jpg?oh=a28ce90588965272435cb6e4a9ccdd1c&oe=59BF6717)

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/21691161_10213639809818450_1079274560_n.jpg?oh=05ff91f2efa80bf331f31cebd2b723db&oe=59C05892)

(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/21763731_10213639810058456_1644683599_n.jpg?oh=17a58d9e24f84a3543bbddb32fff84d4&oe=59BF667B)

 ;D

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: zippyfusenet on 16 September 2017, 05:00:05 PM

Here are my Corgi B-17s, flying in a CY6! game. The lead ship is actually a Chinese diecast toy, that I cut the little silver wheels off and repainted. It's obviously a knockoff of the Corgi model, the shape is exactly the same. I luvs me some prepaints and diecasts:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4423/36094503810_23194fdeb5_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WZxLtd)CY6Side (https://flic.kr/p/WZxLtd) by zippyfusenet (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69302716@N06/), on Flickr

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: von Lucky on 17 September 2017, 07:15:51 AM

Mako - really depends on your audience. I ran a set of games recreating the Japanese air raids over Milingimbi (Northern Australia) at a convention a few years ago:
(http://www.tabletopwargaming.com/littlewars/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/lwmpicsfortheday002.jpg)

I kept things simple with me as the GM running the bombers, and the players each having a fighter (Japanese or RAAF). Everyone knew the targets the bombers were going for (e.g. the landing strip and AA guns), but only my escorts knew when I would start decending, etc.

Was run as a set of linked games (where one game's outcome would effect the next one) using modified Wings of War/Wings of Glory on a hex mat. Was a lot of fun (ran it again a few years later). Simplicity is the key for convention games, for club/home games you can add a lot more.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: MartinR on 17 September 2017, 08:01:48 AM

Quote from: Vanvlak on 16 September 2017, 03:58:45 PM

This is giving me a sense of deja vu - I seem to remember a very old board-sort of game in which a player piloted one single aeroplane - I think there were 2 options, a British and an American bomber, and I can't remember which aeroplanes or even whether they were WWII or Cold War. I have an idea the game came out in the 1970s at the latest, and was extremely detailed with care taken to reproduce the actions open to each member of the bomber crew. It's out of print, but I have an impression there was a pdf somewhere for the rules and a multitude of cards and a representation of the bomber too.

Trouble is it's a very vague memory - sorry, not much help there...  :( 
I do seem to recollect seeing it on Board Game Geek too, though, if that's any help.

That is probably B17, which later became a computer game.

We've run a couple of bomber intercept participation games, in both the players took on the role of the intercepting fighters. One was attacking a large box of B17s, and other was shooting down V1s. In both cases the bombers were controlled by the game system.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: flatpack on 24 September 2017, 08:03:21 AM

If you want to try modern aircraft games, you could try "Target locked on" by Rory Crabb.
I've bought it but not played it yet. Looks simple enough to play.

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: flatpack on 24 September 2017, 08:13:01 AM

I do like the idea of ww2 bomber games and wondered if we could use the "Target for tonight" rules that I know are being tracked down, and adapt them for daylight bombing raids ?
I've got a few 1/600 aircraft ready to go, just need some nice rules.

I've attached a few photos

Bombers
(https://s19.postimg.cc/swv3va3o3/IMG_0434.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/cluzyyr67/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/mx7crmivn/IMG_0435.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hyjud3f2n/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/dj1f7u2oj/IMG_0436.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/cgr8pajv3/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/rx4szkoib/IMG_0437.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/no02xel8v/)


Escorts

(https://s19.postimg.cc/6ejlysvf7/IMG_0438.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fz38lokr3/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/pngootfkj/IMG_0439.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/i7hf30rv3/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/jb1jezcib/IMG_0440.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/yjrgsr66n/)

The enemy

(https://s19.postimg.cc/5etb33g9f/IMG_0441.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o7566ocnj/)

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Tgerritsen on 10 October 2017, 08:15:25 PM

I wish the moderators didn't close the original thread in Cold Wars as I would love to discuss this topic with you separately from WWII, as they are very different sets of challenges.

At Little Wars this year I ran two Cold War bomber scenarios (Western jets vs. TU-16s and IL-28s) and (Soviet jets vs. Canberras).  AAA and SAMs made it interesting for the aircraft going in, and players separated into escort and suppression roles (the SAMs wasted their missiles against the suppression aircraft- I had them roll for it as the operators were fairly inexperienced and shot at the first planes coming in) so that the bombers had no SAMs to worry about when they made their runs.

The game was fun, but the factors that made it challenging to run as a game master were-

Speed- Cold War Jets are pretty fast, so players have to be on the ball or they will lose their chance.  In one game, the players played it like a WWII game, going after the escorts first and assuming they could just chase in on the bombers afterward.  Big mistake- by the time they peeled off to take on the bombers, they were already over the target and dropping bombs.  In the second game, the fighters split into groups assigned to the escorts and groups assigned to the bombers and that made a world of difference.

SAMs- Historically, SAMs were just not as effective as you'd assume.  The Soviet trained air defenses that used the ubiquitous SA2 mainly overcame poor chances to hit by firing large volleys and fighting opponents who flew in a way that was to the strength of the SAM.  Pk on a single SAM was paltry at best, and once suppression tactics came into play, they went down dramatically.  In my game, I didn't have enough batteries.  I should have had at least 3 full batteries to make them more of a threat.  As it was, they fired at the suppression aircraft and scored no hits, making them useless against the problematic bombers who would have been easier targets.

Mission Kill vs. Actual Kill- Interceptors have to remember their goal- to prevent the bombing of the ground target.  Reminding players that their goal is to stop the bombers and that bomber kills is just a nice bonus, allows them to focus on the goal rather than the kill.  Once my players knew their primary roll, it made them think in ways to maximize their tactics rather than everyone on the table just looking to add stars to the side of their plane.  The guy who had the most fun was the guy in a Venom doing suppression runs on the AAA and SAMs.  He giggled with glee as his 20mm chewed up the ground, and it made the bombers he was supporting very happy as well.

I think that providing roles in the bombing run and playing to the tactics of Cold War bomber missions makes it more interesting than the typical WWII bombing raid.  How often do you play AAA suppression tactics in a bombing scenario in a WWII bombing game as part of the overall game?  (Usually I see that as the game itself- you are a doing ground attack for some off table bombing run that will happen later...)

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Mako on 10 October 2017, 11:00:53 PM

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies and info.

Been a while since I've posted here, but have been following with interest.

For WWII daylight bombing, I suggest checking out White Star/Blue Sky rules, if you can find a copy.  You'll need the actual rules too, which come with the Battle of Britain, and/or Pacific Theater set, IIRC, since WS/BS is just a supplement.

There's another free set that looks pretty decent too, but I can't recall the name right now.

Another alternative, for a more beer and pretzels game is "A Mighty Fortress" from Tumbling Dice.  They come with some 1/600th scale aircraft, are very reasonably priced, and look pretty decent too.

Thanks for the reply TG.  I'll post another article on the Cold War section, since there are many issues as you mention, which make them quite different from WWII.

What rules did you use for your games?

I'm interested in discussing tactics, gaming options, strategies, etc..

Think I now have some decent ideas for gaming scenarios.


Best regards,

Rob

Title: Re: Making WWII Aerial Interception - Bomber Games Interesting
Post by: Mako on 11 October 2017, 01:48:38 AM

Here we go, for WWII Daylight Bombing over Europe rules - "Bombers over Germany!" (free set of rules, which look to be quite good):

https://arsmwargame.wordpress.com/home/regolamentiwargame/

I need to give them a try, soon.

Here are some great pics, and a battle account, of a game in action, for those wanting to do a little 8th Air Force bombing:

https://arsmwargame.wordpress.com/2016/09/22/bombers-over-germany/


Enjoy!