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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: nic-e on September 18, 2017, 06:18:39 PM
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(Admit it, the title drew you in... ;) )
So I recently bought into the old WizKids Constructable strategy game Pirates of the spanish main.
During my research into which boosters and boxes to try and find online, I discovered a single low res image that had me stop in my nostalgia driven tracks!
(https://i.imgur.com/agZVYhm.jpg)
"WHAT'S THIS? A LORD OF THE RINGS GAME? WITH INFANTRY? IN A BOOSTER PACK? WITH SIMPLE BATTLE RULES?
TO EBAY!!!! ...."
...Or not.
As I scoured the internet trying to find more info or anyone selling this amazing thing I discovered that the game was cancelled prior to launch.
As a quick rundown on BGG provides all the information that exists about this would be perfect game...
" Booster Pack: 4 double-size cards (3 combat units and 2 hero pieces with bases, or 1 large creature or war machine and 23 combat units with bases), 3 dice, rulebook
Intended to release roughly concurrent with the initial Pirates of the Spanish Main release, the Epic Battle System was being developed to appeal to more traditional wargame fans. According to WizKids press materials, the system was to be able to support large armies representing soldiers, siege weapons, and heroes in mass-scale battles in the Lord of the Rings universe.
The booster pack contents listed above are drawn from the WizKids press materials available at the time.
The game was announced for release 2004, but postponed and eventually canceled by years' end. Comments found in announcements of the cancelation suggest that WizKids wanted to focus their efforts on supporting Pirates of the Spanish Main, and continue development of the Epic Battle System.
Activity Level: Dead "
Well now what?
Give up?
Use one of the hundred other systems that could provide me with a simple battle game?
Or waste hours trying to construct a working simple ruleset based on the mechanics and ideas from pirates of the spanish main?
The third one of course!!
So that's the purpose of this thread ladies and gents..
Using what info I have, the existing wizkids CSG games and whatever new info I can gather from the depths of the internet, I will attempt to rebuild this game.Maybe I'll use 10mm figures, Maybe I'll print out pieces on plasticard for the authentic game in a shoebox feel...
Only time will tell, But stay tuned as i try to unpick the secrets of sunken Numenor by what they left behind...
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And a very quick reply from wizkids on the subject...
"Hi Nic,
Thank you for contacting us about this. I don't think this ever got beyond the prototype/design stage.
Thank you,
WK Team"
Well... I didn't think I'd get much from them but there you are. I imagine whatever existed for the game has long since been binned or taken home by the developers and is now resting at the bottom of a cupboard.
Looks like i'll be doing alot of reconstruction based on the one promo picture....
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I wish you well in your endeavours :D
However I can't help but think that the promo pic looks essentially like a card variant of the War of the Rings rules from GW. All based on unit footprints and you could use those tiny dice for casualty marking. Scale of figures becomes irrelevant and I know people playing the system in 6, 10, 15, and 25/28mm.
Will be following though as I'm a sucker for all thing MiddleEarthy.
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Those cardboard flats are cute as heck, and I normally don't like flats.
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Your effort to revive a "stillborn child" finds me aligned with you, how many good ideas have disappeared from the public eyes due to lack of resources etc...
Even the very idea to try to reconstruct the game from what info you have is extremely interesting and worth of encouragement!
I'll follow this thread, wishing you the best of luck!
Cheers!
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Interesting project!
One observation, though: with Middle Earth, it always seems strange to me that people should want to game the films rather than the books. The former don't make much gaming sense (armour doesn't seem to work, horsemen can charge pike formations at improbable angles; soldiers take pikes to attack fortifications, etc., etc., etc.) while the latter are brimming with abundant material for gaming - especially if you take in things like 'Battle of the Fords of the Isen', which is full of details on the armies of Isengard and Rohan and their various troop types.
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Interesting project!
One observation, though: with Middle Earth, it always seems strange to me that people should want to game the films rather than the books. The former don't make much gaming sense (armour doesn't seem to work, horsemen can charge pike formations at improbable angles; soldiers take pikes to attack fortifications, etc., etc., etc.) while the latter are brimming with abundant material for gaming - especially if you take in things like 'Battle of the Fords of the Isen', which is full of details on the armies of Isengard and Rohan and their various troop types.
Well since I'm basically working from scratch using the wizkidz pocketmodel design philosophy, I'm free to add in other elements from the Tolkiens world.For example, the movies leave out the rangers of the Dunedain that accompany Aragorn to Minas Tirith. I'll be putting them in for sure.
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Excellent! That makes the project all the more interesting (but no less inspiredly quixotic!).
If you haven't read it, Unfinished Tales has got lots of brilliant stuff in it for Middle Earth gaming - both in 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen' and 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields'. The descriptions of battles there are probably more detailed than those in LotR - and certainly have more of an eye on strategy and tactics.
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Excellent! That makes the project all the more interesting (but no less inspiredly quixotic!).
If you haven't read it, Unfinished Tales has got lots of brilliant stuff in it for Middle Earth gaming - both in 'The Battle of the Fords of the Isen' and 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields'. The descriptions of battles there are probably more detailed than those in LotR - and certainly have more of an eye on strategy and tactics.
I have read it, tho not for a couple of years. I actually collect Tolkien books and have a couple of shelves dedicated just to various editions of LoTR. One of the books I'll be referring too is The battles of tolkien by david day . Whilst not hugely in depth, It gives a good overview of the many battles throughout Tolkiens work and provides a nice easy reference without having to flick back and forth through the main body of the unfinished tales.
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One of the books I'll be referring too is The battles of tolkien by david day . Whilst not hugely in depth, It gives a good overview of the many battles throughout Tolkiens work and provides a nice easy reference without having to flick back and forth through the main body of the unfinished tales.
I must have a look for that. I've got a huge soft spot for the Tolkien Bestiary, but more for the illustrations than the text. Day had a huge propensity in that book just to make stuff up, but the illustrations (Miller and Blanche especially) are terrific.
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Righty ho! Work has begun!
Now I will qualify this post by saying this is a rough layout of what the unit cards are going to look like.
(https://i.imgur.com/LCw5PxO.jpg)
I will add symbols for each section , and for attack there will be a sword, bow or both symbol with values for melee and ranged weapons.
ranged weapon ranges will be done by weapon and race so for a rough example:
BOW: Catapult: Ect...
Elves- L+L N/A
Gondor - L L x 4
Rohan - L + S N/A
Mordor - S+ S L x 3
Isengard - S S x 5
Don't worry about feedback for those ,those are off the top of my head values.
SO what now?
Well I have the ideas for army construction down and i have a pretty fun little mechanic in mind for movement. AS this will essentially be rank and flank, I decided that units shouldn't be able to flip on a coin so I have worked out something to handle that.
I want units to have facings so I may add those to the unit cards, Or have a standard formula such as "units take -1 defence dice if attacked from the side and -2 if attacked from behind. Units may only make a single defence roll if they are surrounded on two sides by attacking enemy units."
I also have some ideas for army construction, including allowing heroes to join units ,giving heroes a core special rule and secondary unit buff rule.
I'm also thinking of allowing units to join up and break up as an action, allowing you to form ranks and use your units to build shield walls but i need to test this out.In larger games this could prove to be very unbalanced if i allow defence dice to stack. It'll need playtesting.
My constant thought throughout this is that it has to be brief, simple and fun. Everything should be on the unit card if possible and anything else should stick as close to the core mechanics as possible.
Stay tuned for more!
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Interesting. I know you said not to bother with feedback on the values, but forgive me a note on the "S" Isengard bow ranges (on the "stitch in time" principle!):
"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
And:
"The hobbits were left with the Isengarders: a grim dark band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords."
That sounds like an "L" to me!
A simple "block" LotR wargame would be a great idea. Are you planning to work things out with any specific battle to start with?
On shield walls: UT says that the Isengard orcs were at a disadvantage against these because of their short stature, so that might be a factor in their inclusion in the game, as it adds to the rock/paper/scissors aspect (Uruk-hai are better than Dunlendings against Rohirric infantry in open formation, say, but at a disadvantage when a shield wall is formed).
Other thoughts on profiles (in case they help):
Uruks should be faster than most infantry ("trained to move at great speed");
Wolf-riders (and presumably unmounted wargs) alarm horses; Mordor doesn't appear to have had wolfriders in its armies (possibly because Saruman came up with the concept);
Most orc warriors seem to have been bow-armed as well as equipped for close combat; and
Contrary to almost every wargame list for Middle Earth, uruks appear to have been the mainstay of the armies of Mordor and Isengard, rather than a "special".
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Alright chaps, I have returned from the land of...well, nottingham.
I sat down and have put together a rough version of the core mechanics.
These will be very familiar to anyone that has played any of the wizkids pocket model games, But I have added in a few things that I feel would suit a rank and flank game.
Most importantly is facing.
Unit's can't spin on a dime, and the sides that units attack and attack from alter the amount of damage they can dish our or defend against.
I feel like this will help the game get that feel of a proper wargame without being too fiddly. I've also added in a simple little facing tool to make sure you can get your angles right during the game.
I did debate giving units 4 different attack and defence values on each of their facings but I thought it'd be more fun to have it be more circumstantial.
There are no profiles up at the moment , I haven't put in the rules for terrain interaction or types yet or decided how I want to do scenarios/objectives.
Trying to figure out how I want to do these VS how I think wizkids would have done then in a collectable format is interesting. I want to keep this very simple, Something you can put in your coat pocket, So I want to try and avoid decks of cards and keep things minimal.
Having said that a randomised deck of 6 or 7 scenario/ objective cards that each player draws from to choose a private objective could be fun and would better reflect the fact that armies would have different goals beyond just bashing each other to death.
Here's the link to the Google Drive document for anyone to have a scan over if they wish.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g7qU8F4m7VXH-Y3rAITwNacEOR-WgA8iYuNZ9fKWbzA/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g7qU8F4m7VXH-Y3rAITwNacEOR-WgA8iYuNZ9fKWbzA/edit?usp=sharing)
As I say, ROUGH DRAFT, With a capital R ! any glaring mistakes/omissions/unclear rules, please let me know, Just bare in mind that this is not meant to be the campaign for north Africa, It's meant to be a simple little fantasy game you can play in half an hour.
Finally, I have been thinking about miniatures. I did consider getting credit cards printed with cut out sections but the cost makes forge world look cheap!
I might try printing on to thin plasticard myself for some of the bigger units like the Mumakil, Fell beast and Ents.
I'm putting my real hope in drawing up some pictures of ranked up soldiers and printing them on something like mounting card so that they can fold up flat and be put into a box.
Interesting. I know you said not to bother with feedback on the values, but forgive me a note on the "S" Isengard bow ranges (on the "stitch in time" principle!):
"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
And:
"The hobbits were left with the Isengarders: a grim dark band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords."
That sounds like an "L" to me!
A simple "block" LotR wargame would be a great idea. Are you planning to work things out with any specific battle to start with?
On shield walls: UT says that the Isengard orcs were at a disadvantage against these because of their short stature, so that might be a factor in their inclusion in the game, as it adds to the rock/paper/scissors aspect (Uruk-hai are better than Dunlendings against Rohirric infantry in open formation, say, but at a disadvantage when a shield wall is formed).
Other thoughts on profiles (in case they help):
Uruks should be faster than most infantry ("trained to move at great speed");
Wolf-riders (and presumably unmounted wargs) alarm horses; Mordor doesn't appear to have had wolfriders in its armies (possibly because Saruman came up with the concept);
Most orc warriors seem to have been bow-armed as well as equipped for close combat; and
Contrary to almost every wargame list for Middle Earth, uruks appear to have been the mainstay of the armies of Mordor and Isengard, rather than a "special".
Cheers Hobgoblin! I have a feeling your feedback is going to be useful when i come to start making unit profiles! :D
One of the things I'm looking forward to is using the unit specific special rules to make them better reflect the books.
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Great project! I'd recommend keeping up the search for the original too. You never know. My great obsession is GW's stillborn Confrontation game, and I managed to track down a copy of the spiral-bound rulebook they used for playtesting (includes a bunch of stuff they never published in White Dwarf). Anyway, best of luck with your project!
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Great project! I'd recommend keeping up the search for the original too. You never know. My great obsession is GW's stillborn Confrontation game, and I managed to track down a copy of the spiral-bound rulebook they used for playtesting (includes a bunch of stuff they never published in White Dwarf). Anyway, best of luck with your project!
Cheers. I believe there's still a fairly active confrontation community in among the Inq28 and inquisimunda players.
As for hope of tracking this down? From what wizkids have told me it never left development, So if anything was kept when the project was scrapped I imagine it's in one of the designers cupboards or was lost during the takeover of wizkids.
I have sent tweets out to the designers of Pirates of the spanish main asking if they had any knowledge of the game, Since it seems likely that they would at least be involved in some way.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g7qU8F4m7VXH-Y3rAITwNacEOR-WgA8iYuNZ9fKWbzA/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g7qU8F4m7VXH-Y3rAITwNacEOR-WgA8iYuNZ9fKWbzA/edit?usp=sharing)
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Yeah, you have set yourself a challenge, for sure! All the more power to you, I say.
I mentioned the Confrontation thing only because that was exactly how I got hold of the rules: someone from back in the day found them at the bottom of their cupboard. So was just hoping lightning strikes twice!
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I sat down and made a rough draft of one of the unit cards with some actual values.
I went for the soldiers of Minas Tirith as they are your base human armoured infantry. slow , 50/50 fighters that get a boost as a defensive unit to reflect their experience protecting Minis Tirith and Osgiliath. (I will do actual Osgiliath veterans aswell.)
I didn't give them bows as i want to distinguish them from the rangers of Gondor ,plus I like the idea of Gondorian soldiers being either spear or bow, not mixed units like orcs or elves.
I have change a couple of things. I have put a range value in with the attack , So a units range is either L, S , or 0. (Which i may change to X)
This means that attacks for ranged or mixed units can be handled in the same way as standard base to base attacks, Just from a distance. Any variation in skill or power can be reflected with the unit specific special rules.
(Eg - Gondorian rangers receive + 1 attack when attacking from a distance, This is then removed when they enter base to base combat.)
(https://i.imgur.com/78mL42i.png)
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Terrain rules are in progress.
I have a free evening so I sat down and did a quick sketch of a Soldier of gondor...
(https://i.imgur.com/jF2H7VN.jpg)
Took that low quality phone photo and did a quick mess around in MA paint...
(https://i.imgur.com/09NFynL.png)
printed it out onto some smooth cartridge paper and ...
(https://i.imgur.com/WZuf5NC.jpg)
...Voila!
The standees here measure about 18mm to the eye. I was originally going to go for 10mm but I think I like the bigger figures.
The base is 7 x 3 cm.
The figures can fold flat to fit into a pocket/envelope/tin, Which means you could carry two armies in a little pencil case.
I've also done some extra sketches of alternate poses and put together a rough concept of what a more varied unit will look like.
(https://i.imgur.com/u4Pgenv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CI8GLf8.jpg)
The last image is how i intend the ranks to be.10man units, varied poses, central leader figure.
If anyone wants the PDF of these I'm happy to send it, Just print it off at A4 size.
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They look terrific! Nice to see a non-film take: yours have a little bit of a Pauline Baynes vibe about them, which is much more appropriate, I think. The assembled versions are great.
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They look terrific! Nice to see a non-film take: yours have a little bit of a Pauline Baynes vibe about them, which is much more appropriate, I think. The assembled versions are great.
Cheers hobgoblin.
As much as I love the films visuals and will probably steal alot from it when it comes to other units, I always feel that the world at the time of Lord of the rings is very much in a dark age. I like to think of it as being similar to the late roman empire. where in its prime the roman legions marched in thick plate and tower shields, As the empire receded they changed to mail and smaller shields. Gondor at the time of the war of the ring is a shadow of what it once was so it makes sense to me that it's soldiers be a little less armoured, something not really reflected in the film.
From the Tolkien wiki (a generally reliable source.)
"During the Third Age, Gondor's military prowess eventually declined. The soldiers used two different types of armour and shields. The first one was the same as the ones used in the War of the Last Alliance and were still used when Gondor was ruled by the Kings; however when Gondor was ruled by the Stewards instead of Kings (this was during the second half of the Third Age), this caused their armour and shields to change: the shields that they carried changed and were only about half the height of their users which were made of metal. Their armour was affected as well, for it was made out of a thin-layered strip of metal that would block against a few attacks, unlike the one used in the Second Age which could block many attacks. The weapons were the same (ex. spear, sword, bow and arrows) throughout the Third Age. Another major difference was the Gondorian soldiers themselves: although the soldiers would have proudly fought to the last man, they were never as strong as the warriors of the past especially by the second half of the Third Age. After the Great Plague and the Kin-strife, which left Gondor very weakened, many Númenóreans of pure blood had perished during those troublesome times."