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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Cubs on 26 September 2017, 11:16:56 PM
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I've been umming and aahing for a while about what constitutes the perfect classic look orc. I have it in my mind to try out a bit of sculpting - nothing too ambitious you understand, just the odd orc or two - and wondered what thoughts others have.
I've swung from 'original' Tolkein style (smaller than human), to pig-faced D&D style (human-ish sized), to the bulky Nick Lund 'gorilla' versions (larger than human), to the scrawny jaw-jutting C-series Citadel ones (human-ish sized).
It's going to be subjective, and almost certainly linked to how and when you were introduced to the hobby, but what say you?
Also, what is the classic orc weapon? Spear? Club? Axe? Scimitar? Cleaver?
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Good lord, Hobgoblin's gonna have a field day with this one :D
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Ha!
For me, it's Tolkien all the way. I don't think that's necessarily incompatible with the C-series look; I think some of the first slottabased Citadel orcs were very much in tune with the LotR range of the time, although they were generally a bit bigger. But they have the big heads, bandy legs and long arms of Tolkien's orcs, along with boots and bows (as with Axe Killer and Bladebane, for example). Citadel's "Snagga [sic] goblins", the first set of Orcs of the Red Eye (not the dull second set), and the first three Jez Goodwin Uruk-hai (the shorter originals, not the big ones with multiple variants) would be excellent references, I reckon.
I'd say that bows and scimitars are the classic orcish arms. Spears and axes too. And long knives, of course. Mail shirts, helmets with nasal pieces and badges, and ugly ornamentation on weapon hafts (like Grishnakh's knife). For the quintessential Isengarder look, though, you want long yew bows and straight, short, broad-bladed swords.
A bit of sophistication in the arms and armour would be good too - like the C15 armoured orcs. Tolkien's orcs are clever at making nasty things, so a bit of vile decoration on the gear fits in.
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Also, the John Blanche drawings (http://68.media.tumblr.com/d0d037931568a6fa1e1425ca2f86d9cb/tumblr_mh5z2wChJX1qhslato2_1280.jpg) for the armoured orc range are pretty good inspiration.
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Also, the John Blanche drawings (http://68.media.tumblr.com/d0d037931568a6fa1e1425ca2f86d9cb/tumblr_mh5z2wChJX1qhslato2_1280.jpg) for the armoured orc range are pretty good inspiration.
I was going to say that! lol
These are the best 28mm Orcs of all times IMHO:
(https://i.imgur.com/Pwngrwo.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1b/85/f3/1b85f30f2a0abe7a267f4e33766e485b---flyers.jpg)
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I'm with Hobgoblin that proper orcs should be Tolkienesque. I personally never liked the Citadel/GW take on Orcs, even if the earlier ones posted by Dino may have some quirky charm that the newer GW orcs have lost in the CGI transition despite keeping all their annoying - for the sake of goofiness- goofiness. I'm also not a fan of the LOTR ones because they feel bland to me.
My favourite classical orcs are from the Mithril range, despite the technical limitations of the sculpts and the complete disregard for anatomy (source of image below: http://xulutec.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/orcs-x.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/MlfGW95.jpg)
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Tolkien orcs are nice in artwork ,it's a shame the war games factory didn't quite deliver the miniatures,
I like lancer miniatures orcs as they remind me of a early warhammer style without the oop price tag, GW orcs and orks are just silly and oversized
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Following.
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Another vote for Tolkien orcs rather than GW-style.
I'm sure this is a function of age, but for me the classic look is the old Fantasy Tribes/C series, with (for the smaller breeds) the old Ral Partha goblins. And definitely scimitars and bows (and shields with the Lidless Eye done in wonky teenage freehand...). The pig-faced thing never really worked for me, though.
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I'm with Hobgoblin that proper orcs should be Tolkienesque. I personally never liked the Citadel/GW take on Orcs, even if the earlier ones posted by Dino may have some quirky charm that the newer GW orcs have lost in the CGI transition despite keeping all their annoying - for the sake of goofiness- goofiness. I'm also not a fan of the LOTR ones because they feel bland to me.
My favourite classical orcs are from the Mithril range, despite the technical limitations of the sculpts and the complete disregard for anatomy (source of image below: http://xulutec.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/orcs-x.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/MlfGW95.jpg)
I agree.
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It's probably rather unfashionable to say it, but I really liked the plastic Uruk-hai and "Mordor" orcs that GW put out in their movie tie-in range. I think they were done by the Perry Brothers.
The "Mordor Orcs" were actually not a million miles away in style from those Mithril ones posted above (which are really nice, by the way).
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Classic orcs to me are from the fighting fantasy books. I can't remember the artists name but I loved all the little details in the wrinkles etc on these guys. Not too far stretched from human but enough to make them look gritty, slightly feral yet intelligent.
(http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/titanruss.png)
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…I can't remember the artists name…
Mr Russ Nicholson.
http://russnicholson.blogspot.co.uk (http://russnicholson.blogspot.co.uk)
And a great choice for inspiration. The world NEEDS more Nicholson-style orc/goblinoid minis. :D
The classic orc range for me are the wonderful Jes Goodwin Asgard orcs of old.
Also, what is the classic orc weapon? Spear? Club? Axe? Scimitar? Cleaver?
Scimitar. Definitely scimitar.
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The classic orc range for me are the wonderful Jes Goodwin Asgard orcs of old.
I'd agree with that. The slouching poses are wonderful, and they show both a real variety of breeds and a consistent "orcish" look. I love the fact that the "soldier orcs" appear to be an attempt to do the Isengard Uruk-hai properly: short, straight swords, etc.
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Mr Russ Nicholson.
http://russnicholson.blogspot.co.uk (http://russnicholson.blogspot.co.uk)
And a great choice for inspiration. The world NEEDS more Nicholson-style orc/goblinoid minis. :D
The classic orc range for me are the wonderful Jes Goodwin Asgard orcs of old.
Scimitar. Definitely scimitar.
That's the name!
Asgard are definitely my favourite orc range. I have a bunch of them from viking forge and need to get a bunch more.
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Excellent topic and very interesting for me as I have just starting collecting "classic Orcs" to use in Frostgrave. My main inspiration were the Heroquest Orcs and I wanted the rest to fit in with these. So in the end I went for the Orcs dinohunterpoa posted: small, slouching, a bit on the silly side, not too much detail, often with bare feet. They mix well with the plastic Heroquest Orcs and the corresponding artwork.
I have quite a big warband by now and I love all of them!
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I really like the asgard orcs too. One of my favourite orc ranges is the Eureka 18mm range
(https://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/ekmps/shops/fighting15s/images/300orc03-orc-with-sword-267-p.jpg)
but funnily enough 'classic' fantasy is one of the few genres I'd want to do in 28mm.
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Something that unites the classic (Perry) Citadel and Asgard orcs, as well as the Russ Nicholson ones, is that they generally have proper (albeit shabby) clothing and boots. Iron-shod shoes or boots - for trampling all that's green and pleasant - are surely an orcish essential. And the more recent trend towards depicting orcs as semi-naked savages seems misplaced; orcs are soldiers above all (ranks, serial numbers, relatively advanced weapons and armour), not hunter-gatherer types.
Also, the trend of making orcs hairless seems very odd to me. Tolkien's were certainly hairy.
I think Aly Morrison's hobgoblins make pretty good orcs. They're certainly in line with Tolkien's descriptions, for the most part, although the three-toed feet don't fit. That's also true of the Mithril orcs; I was always puzzled by those orcs' lack of footwear, given the description of iron-shod shoes in LotR. My other criticism of the Mithril orcs is that most have relatively small heads, rather than the proportionately big heads Tolkien describes.
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Also, this post (http://middenmurk.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=orcs) - from a sadly missed and brilliantly overripe RPG blog - has some food for thought.
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Yep. I likes my orcs with lank hair and iron scrap-armour. :P lol
And wonderful to meet another heartbroken follower of the excellent Middenmurk blog. I thought I was the only one!
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Citadel oldhummer 80's What else ? >:D
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I think those Asgard Orcs have a good look, but the anatomy is awful!! Orc ranges are a funny thing, I love some of the Oldhammer Citadel ones, but for every decent one in the range, there are about five dire ones. I have to say I do like the monopose early plastic ones with the long arms from the late 1980s fantasy regiments sets.
For fantasy Orcs, I like a long snout/jaw on an orc but I don't mind the more ape like appearance either, as long as they are not 90s comedy orcs. Scimitars are good as are pole arms and Bows/Crossbows. I like at least some of their armour to look like its been looted.
I'm hoping the Northstar ones wont disappoint
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Orc ranges are a funny thing, I love some of the Oldhammer Citadel ones, but for every decent one in the range, there are about five dire ones.
I think there are three Citadel ranges, apart from the 1980s LotR packs, that are (virtually) all killer, no filler: the C15 armoured orcs, the C16 orcs and the first slottabased C15 range:
(http://www.solegends.com/citc/c015orcs/c2c15armoredorcsx-01.jpg)
(http://www.solegends.com/citc/c015orcs/c2c16orcsx-01.jpg)
(http://www.solegends.com/citc/c015orcs2/fly198507fa-c15x-01.jpg)
But after that, I'd agree. I don't think the Kev Adams ones were nearly as good as the Perry ones (much as I liked the Adams ones at the time), and they tended to have a lot of "filler" (possibly because they were produced more quickly and for Warhammer rather than RPGs).
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On the subject of hairy orcs, I've always liked this Chris Achilleos orc picture.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KkdkwnDORVo/VoafrDVZNyI/AAAAAAAAAaM/CkfwQx87Z6o/s1600/ootp_chris_achilleos_doragar.jpg)
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Following this with interest. Looking to replace some orcs I recently sold off on eBay --- just can't find a line at reasonable cost which I "love" for orcs. Frustrating. I do really like the Otherworld Pig-faced orcs, but I don't know if I want to dedicate myself to that aesthetic (or that cost!)
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I'm a fan of the old, knuckle-dragging Ral Partha orcs
(http://www.ralpartha.com/index.php/gallery/file/Chaos%20Wars/Ral%20Partha%20orc%20with%20standard%20front.jpg)
(not my work, image 'borrowed' from http://www.ralpartha.com/index.php gallery page)
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Gonna just sit and watch this develop to help me with my orc drawings for pocket Tolkien.
I actually really like the way the movies handled orcs. A unified military force but with each member being distinct rather than having animal like uniformity in it's physical features. They hinted at the corrupt, imperfect nature of the orcs creation whilst also giving them personality and motivations. they drank, had arguments and conversations, but still acted as the army they were.
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1. Russ Nicholson is one of my favourite artists.
2. Those old Citadel orcs were amazing - far better than GW's modern offerings.
3. I also like these:
(http://otherworldminiatures.co.uk/figures/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/orcpaint4.jpg)
Otherworld pig-faced orcs
(http://www.hfminis.co.uk/img_cms/product_images/Multi%20Goblins%20Ad.jpg)
Hasslefree goblins
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For me its definitely the C15 and C16 Citadel Orcs - because these are the first ones I had (and still have).
Some what strangely I'd never even thought these were orcs - despite having had the book for 25+ years. I think I had though they were Skaven. But great picture either way.
On the subject of hairy orcs, I've always liked this Chris Achilleos orc picture.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KkdkwnDORVo/VoafrDVZNyI/AAAAAAAAAaM/CkfwQx87Z6o/s1600/ootp_chris_achilleos_doragar.jpg)
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Funny enough, I'd always assumed they were orcs because of the title of the piece 'Orc Charge'. But rooting around on the interweb I found this blog about Fighting Fantasy Orcs - http://realmofzhu.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/an-unnatural-history-of-fighting.html - which explains that they are meant to be 'Doragar' (no, me neither) which are described as Orc/Troll crossbreeds. Black Orcs in anyone else's language perhaps.
The blog also talks about the top-knot and how it became synonymous with the FF Orc for a long time, hinting at an Asiatic style, until they became more like brutish gorillas.
Ian McCraig's Orc from Deathtrap Dungeon.
(https://fightingfantasyproject.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/dd-018.png)
Les Edwards' Orc from Caverns of the Snow Witch
(http://www.lesedwards.com/imagebank/9/7/5/975870.jpg)
Paul Bonner's black and whites in the Warhammer books were wonderful as well, with their almost warthog-headed brutality, which probably marked a turning point in their evolution in the fantasy world as a whole. The pictures I love, but I can't decide on whether I prefer that style or the previous one.
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Paul Bonner's black and whites in the Warhammer books were wonderful as well, with their almost warthog-headed brutality, which probably marked a turning point in their evolution in the fantasy world as a whole.
So much this. and I know it's not in the question but the border illustrations from the likes of 'Ere We Go, Freebooterz, etc... they just set my 12yo mind on fire.
I mean, look at these fellas:
(http://taran.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/ork_chokboy.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-czEljlNulws/U7qlLUw7FSI/AAAAAAAAC4Y/zvdro2Vd7DA/s1600/1382037630850.jpg)
Anyways, that jaw/cheek thing is my idea of classic, and weaponry wise probably an axe or a club. Brutal, blunt, low finesse. low maintenance.
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It's interesting that although the Paul Bonner orcs were quite different from earlier illustrations, they still fit quite nicely with Tolkien's descriptions. So, they've got big heads, short bow legs, long arms and large hands. And they look quite short. You could give those space orks mail, scimitars and shields with the Red Eye, and you'd be hard pushed to show how they differ from Tolkien's descriptions (tusks rather than downward-pointing fangs, perhaps, but not much else).
The Realm of Zhu blog identifies this orc by Gary Ward and Edward Crosby as establishing the Citadel look:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BC0LUkNhRHY/VnMnIDb5OTI/AAAAAAAAAU0/pnjfN7roSM8/s1600/FF09_orc_ward_and_crosby.png)
But I think that it might be the other way round. That orc, to me, is very like the trooper from Harboth and the Black Mountain Boys - not just the face, but the jerkin and leggings too. He's on the left in the image below:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=77384.0;attach=33205;image)
As far as I can see, the Black Mountain Boys were released in June 1984 and The Caverns of the Snow Witch in October 1984. So I suspect the illustration is based on the miniature (of course, it's possible that the illustration was in circulation earlier and the miniature was based on it).
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Have you looked at these ones?
http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/ral-partha-fantasy-c-37/fantasy-armies-c-37_39/gargantua-orcz-c-37_39_51/
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Have you looked at these ones?
http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/ral-partha-fantasy-c-37/fantasy-armies-c-37_39/gargantua-orcz-c-37_39_51/
I hadn't, but they are nice aren't they.
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I suppose I'm the odd one out in that I prefer the "upright" style of orcs found in modern video game RPGs*. Usually sized and proportioned like beefy humans, with their own independent culture rather than being just "savages" or tools of an evil mighty whitey power. More like... fantasy Klingons, for lack of a better comparison, than some kind of slovenly degenerate oversized goblin.
Classic Tolkien-style orcs feel oversimplified to me, basically everything about them seems designed to be a one-note "always chaotic evil". Sort of like how sci-fi Stormtroopers are designed to be de-personalized as possible so you can gun down as many of them as you like without thinking about it, these orks seem designed to be a one-dimensionally hateable/disgusting "enemy".
GW style orks are more fun, but I find them overly cartoony, both in appearance and manner. Also their size, for me, crosses the border between "ork" and "troll" or "ogre". I feel like these "races" are so vaguely defined between IPs, that one of the few general markers of the difference between and "oc" and an "ogre" or an "orc" and a "troll" is relative size. So when I see "troll" or "ogre" sized "orcs", I feel like that particular IP has kinda broken one of the last things holding the concept in place.
Pig faced orcs feel similarly: like they're orcs in name only.
One thing I do like about "classic" orcs is the sense that they are competent craftsmen in their own right. I don't like the common modern trope of ork-made weapons, armor, buildings, etc being crude and ramshackle. I suppose that's an extension of my preference for them having their own developed culture.
*The Elder Srolls series is a mostly good example: they get the physicality and culture right, but not the craftsmanship part. World of Warcraft is a bad example: the physicality is all borked (males are GW style troll-orks, females are human supermodels with sharp teeth), the culture is half there (they have their own culture, but it's a shallow "tribal savage" stereotype), and the crude craftsmanship trope is in full force.
I also quite like Terry Pratchett's Orcs, though it's hard to discuss those without getting spoilery.
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Classic Tolkien-style orcs feel oversimplified to me, basically everything about them seems designed to be a one-note "always chaotic evil". Sort of like how sci-fi Stormtroopers are designed to be de-personalized as possible so you can gun down as many of them as you like without thinking about it, these orks seem designed to be a one-dimensionally hateable/disgusting "enemy".
Tolkien's orcs have a bit more complexity, though: they seem to have loyalties and ambitions of their own (see the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag), and are very human in many respects. They're virtually the only characters in LotR, apart from the hobbits and Gollum, who talk in a normal register rather than an epic one. I'd say they're almost uncomfortably human; they appear to be based on British soldiers as much as anything else (there's support for this in Tolkien's letters).
As far as orcish images go, Ian Miller's take a bit of beating:
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/14/cc/87/14cc87ed3b9ed32e1dc051681a3fcc8b.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LRINJzkft7g/UWq18KUFW7I/AAAAAAAACF8/bhH3jy7vqEU/s1600/ianmiller1.jpg)
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I love Ian Millers Orc illustrations although I probably wouldn't want to try painting a miniature version of them as there would be a lot of detail to paint!!
I've always thought that the Harlequin/Blacktree 'Great Orcs' have something of the look of Miller's illustrations. Mind you, the great orcs are much too big for Tolkien Orcs.
I quite like the idea of Orcs having more than one look- I thing one of the problems with later GW orcs is that they all looked the same- big and goofy with very little character.
Threads like this are dangerous- I've been adding Oop Citadel Orcs to my lead pile recently as a consequence!!
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Hobgoblin, Those Ian Miller works make me think entirely Asgard orcs. I think they fit the same aesthetic.
Conectamabob, I wholeheartedly agree with your points about the orc/ogre/troll difference with the size. Often if I purchase large orcs, too large even to be thought of as black orcs (depending on your definition of that) I will use them as ogres or trolls (again depending on the "orcs" look).
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Hobgoblin, Those Ian Miller works make me think entirely Asgard orcs. I think they fit the same aesthetic.
Yes: it's the slouching that does it. As westwaller says, painting an actual Miller orc miniature would be a nightmare, but the Asgard ones capture the sense of movement and poster. On that note, I recall that when I saw the first Burton Planet of the Apes film, I though that the ape soldiers were much more orc-like than Peter Jackson's orcs. The apes move like creatures with long arms and crooked legs, whereas Jackson's orcs move like ... people.
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Classic Citadel orcs are my preference, although given their mongrel background I'll settle for virtually any style without too many qualms.
However, they must be painted green.
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However, they must be painted green.
(https://myalbum.com/photo/zE1J28RHR4HG/1k0.jpg)