Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: LeadAsbestos on November 26, 2017, 10:28:21 PM
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Mild rant coming: Why the sudden interest in joining into threads just to bash the subject matter, or to make your voice heard about elements you don't like, games you'll never play, things that are, in your opinion, wrong, etc? Not so much here, though it has been happening, but all across the net/forums.
What happened to letting folks enjoy their hobby their way? Don't like it? Move on. You'd play a game, but reason X prevents you from ever trying it? So don't, and let the rest of us try it. Minis not to your taste? Don't buy them.
Sorry, but the Gangs of Rome FB group, and to a lesser extent, the thread here, have got me all bothered. Sadly, over on FB it seems mostly my American comrades who think the whole damn world should be hand-crafted to their needs. Here, at least I see the reasons behind some discontent, though I completely disagree with them. But page after page of " Let me chime in to tell you why this sucks..." is just bad behavior.
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This is the main reason I visit TMP far less than I used to!
It's not something I have particularly noticed here on LAF, long may that continue!
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Ignore them mate, if you react to their churlish behaviour they have won :)
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I think its uncommon here. I think it is most common on something new, when people have hopes and expectations for a new product, and then find that it is going to be different. Then there is understandable annoyance that the new thing you were wanting to really like, isn't going to be the thing you expected. And perhaps there is a hope to influence the design before its too late - or just to let off steam.
Complaining about established games, is a bit like shouting at the tide.
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Yes. But also no.
A forum is a place for a discussion, so the nays have as much right as the yays to throw in their opinion. A whole string of yays would make for a pretty dull conversation. It would be like a North Korean party political broadcast. A bit of good natured and respectful rough and tumble adds to the forum, IMO.
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If you're frustrated with the dominant game in your preferred genre. Used to be WRG and then DBx were the only rules catered for in ancients. Or warhammer or 40k.
But now there is so much choice .
Of course a lot of it is the old "I think that all right thinking people should think the way I think!"
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Pretty much the main reason I left TMP.
Someone would right how much they enjoyed game X
and immediately someone would start ripping them for it.
Live and let live. We are doing this hobby to have fun.
This is why I so enjoy LAF.
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I think it is a cultural trend. "Don't like the things I don't like!"
I have no idea why this has become a 'thing'. Maybe something to do with what I'd call a 'hyper-individualism' shift... everyone's opinion matters and MUST be shared. It's pervasive on gaming boards, but it shows up for everything from pumpkin spice, to candy corn, to Pokemon Go. People waste their time making sure that everyone knows they dislike it, by posting or making memes about it.
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/eb/95/e6/eb95e685ff45671c22a4f592f420d60d--candy-corn-halloween-humor.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnwIDljXEAA5FHq.jpg)
That one cracks me up- beer and darts as a measure of self worth.
My crackpot theory, and I hope I'm wrong, is that humans are cultural lemmings and reach a point where the proverbial pot boils over, and there has to be a huge conflict that resettles for a time. The 'civilized world' seems to be simmering along quite nicely from my point of view...
EDIT: I just remembered an event from TMP, about three years ago. New poster asked "Where an I buy the rounded edged slotta bases." John the OFM pipes in and almost attacks the person asking for the info, because "Why would anyone want to use those? blah blah blah!" The poster never came back- and I was going to send him some of those bases for FREE because I had extras. That might have been the moment I stopped going there regularly.
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Yes. But also no.
A forum is a place for a discussion, so the nays have as much right as the yays to throw in their opinion. A whole string of yays would make for a pretty dull conversation. It would be like a North Korean party political broadcast. A bit of good natured and respectful rough and tumble adds to the forum, IMO.
This is pretty much my take.
All things in balance is my philosophy, so a bit of positive and a bit of negative, as long as they are courteously given and, where appropriate, reasons given maketh my little world go round. I confess I probably make the assumption that because someone has publicly posted something they are asking for honest feedback (or at least should be ready for it).
I'll try to be constructive if I feel a criticism oozing from me, but I'm not in the camp of 'if you can't say anything nice, say nothing', because that leads to those awful threads where you can see lots of views but no replies. Having been the instigator of some of those, it can grind the soul. I prefer a critical reply than nothing, so long as it's an invitation to discuss and not just a tantrum.
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Yes. But also no.
A forum is a place for a discussion, so the nays have as much right as the yays to throw in their opinion. A whole string of yays would make for a pretty dull conversation. It would be like a North Korean party political broadcast. A bit of good natured and respectful rough and tumble adds to the forum, IMO.
This.
Criticism or praise of products being promoted for sale is perfectly legitimate, provided criticism is reasoned and civil. There’s no rule in the forum that says we must all love everything that’s offered up for sale, and must never make negative comments if we want to express an opinion as to why the product in question doesn’t appeal or live up to expectations.
What’s not legitimate - and is the thing that generally leads to ruckuses - is criticising other people’s opinions, positive or negative.
So saying ‘I love/hate product XYZ, and here’s why’ is valid.
Saying ‘You’re wrong for loving / hating product XYZ and you should just shut up’ is not valid.
Discussion and debate are part and parcel of the forum, and as long as things are kept polite and proportionate, there’s no reason why it should be a problem. Some people subscribe to the philosophy of ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all’. Other people like to be free to express their opinions. The rules and ways of this forum have always been that people are free to express their opinions.
In summary, criticise products being marketed to us, but please try to hold back from criticising other members. Agree or disagree by all means, but please don't try to prevent people from expressing their opinion :)
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This.
Criticism or praise of products being promoted for sale is perfectly legitimate, provided criticism is reasoned and civil. There’s no rule in the forum that says we must all love everything that’s offered up for sale, and must never make negative comments if we want to express an opinion as to why the product in question doesn’t appeal or live up to expectations.
What’s not legitimate - and is the thing that generally leads to ruckuses - is criticising other people’s opinions, positive or negative.
So saying ‘I love/hate product XYZ, and here’s why’ is valid.
Saying ‘You’re wrong for loving / hating product XYZ and you should just shut up’ is not valid.
Discussion and debate are part and parcel of the forum, and as long as things are kept polite and proportionate, there’s no reason why it should be a problem. Some people subscribe to the philosophy of ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all’. Other people like to be free to express their opinions. The rules and ways of this forum have always been that people are free to express their opinions.
In summary, criticise products being marketed to us, but please try to hold back from criticising other members. Agree or disagree by all means, but please don't try to prevent people from expressing their opinion :)
Right... Stopping just short of accusing the creators of GoR of stealing the ideas of LAF members, and calling those interested in the game 'spoon-fed' is just perfect behavior. Such a gentleman. Tell me again what to think or say. Thank you.
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Right... Stopping just short of accusing the creators of GoR of stealing the ideas of LAF members, and calling those interested in the game 'spoon-fed' is just perfect behavior. Such a gentleman. Tell me again what to think or say. Thank you.
Well you’ve misrepresented what I said in that thread completely, but never mind.
As I say, reasoned criticism of products is within the rules of the forum. Having a go at other members for expressing their opinions isn’t. Mainly because that too often spills over into personal attacks.
I wasn’t telling you what to think or say. I was telling you that the forum rules allow criticism of products, so there’s not much point complaining about people criticising products.
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polite critism should be allowed for non commercial posts . It can get rather bland mediocrity being celebrated as if it's a Bill Gaskin set up .
This is a weakness with this forum as it can restrain good debate but of course bad behaviour should be punished .
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Funniest example I ever saw was on an obituary thread for Prince (on a wargames site’s general page) where someone joined in just to say they’d never liked Prince’s music.
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I think the GOR has had some rather extreme reactions (not on here though) with some rather bizarre reactions I have observed on promotions on face book ;D though I tend to think if you pay your money you take your chance.
Honestly ignore it Lead asbestos. I bought and painted up a shed load of gladiators thinking a set of rules long discussed on this forum would be released but never were. I sold them on and was happy with the price I got and enjoyed painting them. I could have used them for gangs of rome etc again too late :D ;D on cutting out bits of cards and stuff, I haven`t the time these days, I would have at one time but with only 4 hours at a club night would rather not Blue Peter my wargames time :D
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I don't think that this is anything new in all honesty. I seem to recall there being threads or groups of this sort for years, if not as long as the internet has existed to allow such a thing. Before then, grognardy types in club houses complaining over a shandy or lager tops...
Now there is a big difference between purposely trolling or throwing around comments which aren't constructive but to suggest that no one ever criticises an aspect of a game they don't like or point out errors or potential improvements seems counter productive. Many companies have been lambasted in the past for not listening to their customer base, whether in praise or more commonly in gripe. If people didn't provide their opinions on what they saw as incorrect or wrong, how could one ever hope to improve. Or are we to have every set of new clothes like that of the proverbial Emperor.
I take everything online with a hefty pinch of salt nowadays. Its a shame that there are some who see all criticism as an attack but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'll comment where I think I can add to the discussion/conversation. To be honest, I probably prefer a good debate rather than endless comments of (+1).
In short, whilst I may not agree with Blood on everything, I agree that we should be fine to criticise where warranted but leave the personal jibes out of it. Lets not go the way of certain groups and round on all criticism as 'trolling'.
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I don't think that this is anything new in all honesty. I seem to recall there being threads or groups of this sort for years, if not as long as the internet has existed to allow such a thing. Before then, grognardy types in club houses complaining over a shandy or lager tops...
Now there is a big difference between purposely trolling or throwing around comments which aren't constructive but to suggest that no one ever criticises an aspect of a game they don't like or point out errors or potential improvements seems counter productive. Many companies have been lambasted in the past for not listening to their customer base, whether in praise or more commonly in gripe. If people didn't provide their opinions on what they saw as incorrect or wrong, how could one ever hope to improve. Or are we to have every set of new clothes like that of the proverbial Emperor.
I take everything online with a hefty pinch of salt nowadays. Its a shame that there are some who see all criticism as an attack but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'll comment where I think I can add to the discussion/conversation. To be honest, I probably prefer a good debate rather than endless comments of (+1).
In short, whilst I may not agree with Blood on everything, I agree that we should be fine to criticise where warranted but leave the personal jibes out of it. Lets not go the way of certain groups and round on all criticism as 'trolling'.
Just *what* are you talking about?
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My first comment was in direct response to the question posed by LeadAsbestos regarding the sudden interest in joint discussions to be negative. I don't think it's anything new.
My second point was that being negative, or more relevant here - not positive, shouldn't be seen as a bad thing overall providing that it is constructive or within the parameters of the discussion at hand. There are numerous threads in here and elsewhere complaining that certain companies don't listen enough to their customers. Recent examples have highlighted that some people think we should only give praise when they do.
Connected to this, I tried to make a point that offering constructive criticism or making a point in exasperation is not necessarily intended to cause a fuss or provoke attack (ie intended to troll). I would rather read a balanced debate than lists of positive (+1) comments.
Not sure if this answers your question but hopefully this provides more context?
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I think the problem arises because of the existence of anonymous user ID social media platforms. These days people have the ability to pass comment on anything they see and for certain sad individuals that gives them some kind of thrill.
Regrettably whilst they have been provided with an ability to comment, nothing has been done to provide them with the intellect.
You just have to ignore it, or dump the platforms and don't put yourself in the position of seeing it in the first place because you are not going to stop it.
You can be sure that the more bitching and ill informed commentary that goes on, the better Facebook et al like it. Arguments and "opinions" that are borderline harassment and provocation, promote like for like responses that raise page hit numbers, increase advertising revenues and inflate the perceived importance of the platforms.
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Some interesting posts here.
It has taken me decades to say, "I am only playing with toy soldiers."
Win, lose or draw, if I had fun then I had a good day.
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I'm often more critical than I should be on plenty o' forums, but it comes down to "if you ask for my opinion...I shall tell you". I try to avoid just leaping into a thread to say "whoa, this sucks!" unless it's a genuine warning (Prodos Games, Palladium Books etc.) where a new or unaware person is involved.
Also, I know many companies follow forums etc., so polite criticism, i.e. "This mechanic doesn't work as it's intended, it results in..." is simple feedback that these companies may stumble onto - where possible I'll even go to the source to say so.
Trolling is an entirely different issue/method...and it is very rampant. However, by contrast so are the hordes of people who take any valid criticism or opinion and simply call it "hating". Probably one of the biggest banes to human communication to come along in decades. I disagree with you...your argument is now classified as "hating".
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IMO, it feels like nearly everyone is looking for a fight these days, including a "Bad guy" as opponent. I would have said that was just online as recently as in the last couple years, but it seems all that's spilling out IRL too more recently.
Too many people who should be friends, or at least capable of getting along, picking apart the smallest differences as if they were on opposite ends of some ideological spectrum.
LAF is just seeing a little spillover. We're just lucky it's not too much here.
I do agree that if you don't like a thread, best to stay clear of that thread, unless it's something that actually violates forum rules. And if you're not sure if it's a violation, or think it should be when it isn't, well, that's what PMs to mods are for.
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Some interesting posts here.
It has taken me decades to say, "I am only playing with toy soldiers."
Win, lose or draw, if I had fun then I had a good day.
“I am only playing with toy soldiers” ought to appear as a pop up every time you press reply to a topic.
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Like one of those "Captcha" things, lol. lol
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Being a moderator in a mostly GW focused forum I can assure you the „discussions“ on LAF are pure heaven in terms of respect and civility.
I‘m actually no fan of the „if you can’t say anything nice better say nothing at all“ kind of thinking, but caught myself a few times not responding to a controversial topic or not giving constructive criticism on something because many people nowadays seem to see even well meant critique or advise as an attack on themselves as person instead as a food for thought.
Like others on here I prefer a good discussion, like most on here where seldom anybody actually trolls a topic just for the sake of telling other people how stupid their opinions are, over those rather dull +1 threads.
Just as an example:
On my blog I tend to never get any negative or even constructive feedback. That has led to me getting rather content with my painting. It was only recently when I got back to the forums more often that I actually got the incentive to „up my game“ so to speak. Not because I was getting loads of positive feedback but because people actually gave advice on how I could get better as a painter.
The same should be true for any modeler/ rules writer. As long as you never hear anything but praise (genuine or not) about the way you’re doing things, you‘ll probably never see a reason to change.
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it is far more easy to know, what not to like. To realize what you do like - and actually stand up for it - is far more different if not more difficult. At least to some people.
Additionally there are usually more people who do not like this or that, than people who do. So while complaining, one is part of a larger group, than in praising.
And we all want to be part of the winners.
The trend is, that a different opinion is seen more and more as an attack to one's personal integrity, rather than an exchange of interests, especially in the net, when everything seems to be engraved in stone, sort of "What? No smiley? A-hole!"-mentality.
Last but not least ... discussions in here are not about the best way to the future, or freeedom for everyone, the best political system, etc. It is just about games. So actualy there is not really way of "argueing" why a game is good or not ... we just like it - or not. Like ice cream or golf.
No arguments, just liking. And simple aceptance has always been a tricky trait for humans. ;)
(one little smiley ... just to be save ^^)