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Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Rich H on December 21, 2017, 03:03:50 PM

Title: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 21, 2017, 03:03:50 PM: Would warlord plastic paras do for 1950s Brits? Struggling to find anything definitive :(

Ideally I'd like to arm them with EM-2 rifles which I'd get cast up.

I was going to build a bit of a what if Korean war-ish force with a Centurion :D

Ta
Rich
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on December 21, 2017, 05:18:40 PM: I would assume so, they would just ship them out with what was in the stores.

I know I have a Britain's figure with an EM2 somewhere.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: vodkafan on December 21, 2017, 05:18:45 PM: The First Corps Brits?
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Wyrmalla on December 21, 2017, 05:52:26 PM: A swatch about some period photos makes it look like most guys are wearing WWII gear. MK III Turtle helmets with webbing appear, though those are just greenstuff over the pot helmets. There's some variation in the size of the pockets on the webbing as well.

Though for wargaming purposes, and at 28mm cosmetically they'd be the same. Just use helmets with covers more often than bare one I guess.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: carlos marighela on December 21, 2017, 05:53:59 PM: Quote from: Rich H on December 21, 2017, 03:03:50 PM
Would warlord plastic paras do for 1950s Brits? Struggling to find anything definitive :(

Ideally I'd like to arm them with EM-2 rifles which I'd get cast up.

I was going to build a bit of a what if Korean war-ish force with a Centurion :D

Ta
Rich

They would do, as is, for 1950s Paras or Marines, see photos of Suez. Add SLR's and Sterlings you can use them as Paras and RMs into the 1960s. The British army in Korea is either going to be in JG in the warmer months, battledress in the cooler ones and a range of kit in winter, including US clothing.

I suppose you could use the plastic Paras as a basis for winter clad troops, but in reality, the M-51 parka was a longer and differently styled item. The British pattern 50 combat jacket saw very limited issue towards the end of the war. WW-2 era windproofs were popular in Korea but that doesn't really help unless you fancy going nuts with the green stuff.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 21, 2017, 06:45:19 PM: Thanks all!

I think I'll go for the Brit paras and make/acquire some EM-2s
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Ewan on December 21, 2017, 07:39:16 PM: http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=14&CategoryID=88&SubCategoryID=373
The British commando figure might be useful
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 21, 2017, 10:50:06 PM: Thanks!
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Harry Faversham on December 22, 2017, 11:23:09 AM: 3rd. Battalion Parachute Regiment, Suez, mid fifties...

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/e5/8b/35/e58b35c0659319437fe60441c9f9ce88.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: MartinR on December 23, 2017, 07:26:51 AM: The only difference to WW2 kit for that para is he has 44 pattern webbing (the water bottle and cover are different). Similarly, 49 pattern Battle Dress has slightly different pockets and has a tailored collar.

For wargaming purposes, they are identical. Apart from the turtle helmets (and if you've got WW2 figures in Mark III, you are fine).

Iirc the paras were wearing Denison smocks well into the 1970s.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 10:35:50 AM: Spot on. Thanks! Centurion has gone into the mould too.

Might switch from Korea to Suez then.... just need to see what else I could jam into bolt action using extant rules.
Centurion will be a Comet. I was going to take a 17pdr towed by an Oxford Carrier...
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: commissarmoody on December 23, 2017, 11:48:26 AM: Quote from: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 10:35:50 AM
Spot on. Thanks! Centurion has gone into the mould too.

Might switch from Korea to Suez then.... just need to see what else I could jam into bolt action using extant rules.
Centurion will be a Comet. I was going to take a 17pdr towed by an Oxford Carrier...
Now you just need to make the Egyptians then. :D
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 12:33:08 PM: Ah... not yet at least!
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Arlequín on December 23, 2017, 01:14:28 PM: Late to the party, but from 1951...

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d4/71/f0/d471f05647cdf6e8f812954c4d6c339f.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/08/cd/28/08cd28c0f7d5ea9184399bbec288f547--british-soldier-british-army.jpg)

The 'Commando Cap' shown on the Minifigs above, was almost universal head wear in Korea for the Army, as the helmet could be worn over it.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: vodkafan on December 23, 2017, 07:15:36 PM: You could still have a Centurion, just look on Ebay for the Corgi Diecast Centurion MKIII, change the toy barrel and do a repaint....avoid the Dinky one though.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: SABOT on December 23, 2017, 07:57:41 PM: There are a few on there plus don’t forget the good old Saladin as well👍
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 08:02:44 PM: I could... or I could use the Die Waffenkammer Centurion that Jeff will send me. Seeing as I built the master ;)

Its being cast any time now.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: carlos marighela on December 23, 2017, 08:07:41 PM: Quote from: vodkafan on December 23, 2017, 07:15:36 PM
You could still have a Centurion, just look on Ebay for the Corgi Diecast Centurion MKIII, change the toy barrel and do a repaint....avoid the Dinky one though.

Given that Rich has produced the master for a Centurion, that's going into production at JTFM, I doubt he's in much need of the Corgi version. ;)

Use of '44 pattern webbing was universal amongst the Paras in the '50s. A field pack hides the additional cross straps at the rear which give it away and there are a number of makers of US water bottles which in 28mm stand in for the 44 pattern. If you hunt around for the old Wargames Factory survivors the sprues have a goodly number of SA 80s which would make handy basis for conversion. Actually I'd be prepared to part with mine if you want, I have no real need for them.

I did read somewhere that the Paras were supposedly heavy users of the No 5 rifle, AKA, the Jungle Carbine and got a heavy allocation in 1945. There are a number of photos of 1 Airborne Div occupying Norway toting them. Must have been a shortlived phenomenon. I've seen thecodd one depicted in use by 6 Airborne in Palestine but nothing later in Cyprus or Suez.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 08:11:00 PM: Awesome thanks!

My force will be a what if force toting EM-2s eventually!
Centurion and probably a 17pdr
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: carlos marighela on December 23, 2017, 09:33:50 PM: Quote from: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 08:11:00 PM
Awesome thanks!

My force will be a what if force toting EM-2s eventually!
Centurion and probably a 17pdr

17pdr? Nah, if you are going wotif, go for the 32pdr. A manly man's anti-tank gun! :D

By the by, the paras were using US M40 106mm RCLs in the 1950s.

Let me know if you want the SA 80s and I'll dig 'em out post Christmas.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 03:48:07 AM: Quote from: Rich H on December 23, 2017, 08:11:00 PM
My force will be a what if force toting EM-2s eventually!

If you're looking for a 'what-if' scenario for your 'what-if' force, why not go all the way and follow the one for WWIII laid out in this 1951 issue of Colliers (https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/AlbertYega/colliers-russias-defeat-occupation-1952-1960)?

Right timescale ('52-'54) for your previous models and your No.9 Rifle (EM-2) toting Brits. Many Soviet units were toting SMGs still, as well as wearing WWII style uniform (although WWII-style Soviets with AKs would be even better), while the U.S. was pretty much still the same as in 1945, a la the new Empress U.S. figures.

I've been procrastinating over it for a while, but lack of figures and vehicles was an issue. You're chipping away at the vehicles and even the figures are partly do-able. It's all the same tech level as Bolt Action (although I'd be going all to CoC if it was me).
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: MartinR on December 24, 2017, 08:59:16 AM: Quote from: Arlequín on December 23, 2017, 01:14:28 PM
Late to the party, but from 1951...

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d4/71/f0/d471f05647cdf6e8f812954c4d6c339f.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/08/cd/28/08cd28c0f7d5ea9184399bbec288f547--british-soldier-british-army.jpg)

The 'Commando Cap' shown on the Minifigs above, was almost universal head wear in Korea for the Army, as the helmet could be worn over it.

I love the caption on the first photo which emphasises the Bayonet!
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: carlos marighela on December 24, 2017, 09:07:50 AM: Bloody septics, they killed that rifle. Welched on the deal to buy the FAL, bought a piece of crap in the form of the M-14 only to ditch it a few, short years afterwards for a weapon with a smaller round but arguably considerably less efficient than the one for the EM-2. Wankers.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: commissarmoody on December 24, 2017, 10:17:48 AM: Quote from: carlos marighela on December 24, 2017, 09:07:50 AM
Bloody septics, they killed that rifle. Welched on the deal to buy the FAL, bought a piece of crap in the form of the M-14 only to ditch it a few, short years afterwards for a weapon with a smaller round but arguably considerably less efficient than the one for the EM-2. Wankers.

Tell us how you really feel about it. :D
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 10:36:38 AM: Quote from: MartinR on December 24, 2017, 08:59:16 AM
I love the caption on the first photo which emphasises the Bayonet!

"They don't like it up 'em" could have been a mantra for the 20th Century British Army. Although having a business-like bayonet served the Scots Guards well at Tumbledown when the ammo ran out.

Quote from: carlos marighela on December 24, 2017, 09:07:50 AM
Bloody septics, they killed that rifle.

They killed the .280 round, but it was Winnie and the returning Conservatives who killed the EM-2 and the TARDEN. The EM-2 had actually been accepted for service in the British Army pre-production, but Winnie and co. overturned that decision.

The thing is NATO had standardised on .30-06 on inception in 1949, as most of them were being supplied by the U.S.; only a faction within Britain was pushing for a brand-new round. With large stocks of weapons and .303 ammo, HMG was not going to just throw them away.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on December 24, 2017, 02:27:55 PM: @Arlequin: that contradicts the narrative in the Osprey books (I will look up which ones).
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 02:49:55 PM: History often contradicts the narrative of Osprey books. ;)

There's plenty of contemporary primary source material out there on the net, as well as the core timeline itself as regards the adoption of the various calibres of NATO standard rounds.

E.g. Hansard, 1st Feb 1954 (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1954/feb/01/british-army-new-rifle)
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on December 24, 2017, 03:14:29 PM: Quote from: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 02:49:55 PM
History often contradicts the narrative of Osprey books. ;)

There's plenty of contemporary primary source material out there on the net, as well as the core timeline itself as regards the adoption of the various calibres of NATO standard rounds.

E.g. Hansard, 1st Feb 1954 (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1954/feb/01/british-army-new-rifle)
Osprey often contradicts itself as well ^__^.

Your description (probably echoed by Hansard, I have not read that) is echoed by the SA80 book. An alternative narrative is put forward in the FN FAL book.
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 03:55:19 PM: It's worth a read when you have some time, although bear in mind what is not said as much as what is said. While a MP or even a PM would never actually lie, they might apparently 'mislead', something we've been reminded of more recently.

lol
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: Rich H on December 24, 2017, 04:42:20 PM: Quote from: Arlequín on December 24, 2017, 03:48:07 AM
If you're looking for a 'what-if' scenario for your 'what-if' force, why not go all the way and follow the one for WWIII laid out in this 1951 issue of Colliers (https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/AlbertYega/colliers-russias-defeat-occupation-1952-1960)?

Right timescale ('52-'54) for your previous models and your No.9 Rifle (EM-2) toting Brits. Many Soviet units were toting SMGs still, as well as wearing WWII style uniform (although WWII-style Soviets with AKs would be even better), while the U.S. was pretty much still the same as in 1945, a la the new Empress U.S. figures.

I've been procrastinating over it for a while, but lack of figures and vehicles was an issue. You're chipping away at the vehicles and even the figures are partly do-able. It's all the same tech level as Bolt Action (although I'd be going all to CoC if it was me).

Interesting will take a look.

Agreed on the CofC but BA is easier ;) I've got some sympathetic BA event organisers who let me run 'eccentric' lists in normal games. Mostly because I don't take the piss and rarely win...

I like the idea of a western Europe force too...
Title: Re: Brits in 1950s - uniform?
Post by: carlos marighela on December 24, 2017, 10:57:53 PM: Given that the EM-2 had been announced as the next service rifle by the outgoing Labour government and the War Office went so far as to give it a proper name (Rifle No 9, Mk 1) it indeed seems that there was an actual intent to issue it as the general service rifle, along with the Taden gun. Churchill killed it but only cos the twats in the US Army were committed to .30-06 for reasons of economy and/or sentiment. Certainly there was no science involved.

Still, the US was at the peak of its game at the time, engineering moderately improved Garand derivatives and eventually the ultimate peak of weapon's design, the M-60 GPMG.