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Miniatures Adventure => Call of Cthulhu => Strange Aeons => Topic started by: OldGuy59 on January 20, 2018, 06:04:25 PM
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I am being dragged into Strange Aeons by a buddy that is really in to this game. I am feeling pretty constricted by the small numbers. Points available, characteristics, skills available and how few can be taken. However, if this is all part of the game design to keep it simple and fun, it might all work out. After all, I've only played a few games.
Now, that same buddy wants to run a group campaign, and there are three of us, including the instigator, another individual that is in to the painting opportunities as much as playing, and me, who is going along. We will rotate who plays their team and who plays the lurkers, and see how crazy we all are in the end.
Now that I've said all that, the reason I'm posting is weapons options and skills.
1. A stick is a scrounge? What if a character wants to bring a walking stick or cane? That shouldn't be a scrounge. What would that cost? Would there be a cost?
2. Now, what if the stick was 'loaded' (specially weighted as a weapon)? This is actually illegal in some countries as a lethal, concealed weapon, BTW. Now, it becomes equivalent to a club, but is stylish as well as useful. I would see this costing the same as a club, at least, with the same stats.
3. Bayonets: Why not? Pay for a knife, but call it a bayonet. A bolt-action rifle could be a surplus WW I weapon, and could be combined as a spear ( not throwable!). There is a post mentioning this here somewhere, with a skill called Bayonet Drill.
4. Rifle Scopes? Or is the game too close quarters to make these effective or even useable?
About skills:
A. Bartitsu (Link:Wikipedia.org - Bartitsu (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu)). What would this be as a skill? Any stick, or with the bonus of a 'loaded' stick, this would give a character a handy close-combat weapon (was that a bad pun?). Could this be combined with other martial skills to increase the bonuses?
B. Bayonet Drill (Link: Unarmed and Rifles (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=86039.msg1058659#msg1058659)). How do we see this working? As in the previous post?
Any comments, concerns, or other ideas?
PS: My Character will have a walking stick, regardless of the outcome of the above. It will also be his 'Lucky Charm'. I'm looking for an appropriate figure, and am considering modding a figure with some brass rod to give a good figure a cane if it doesn't have one.
Threshold Character: Morgan Abbott [4PP+2EP]
Stats: M5 D4+ C6 A3 W2 R3+
Skills: Command, Inspire
Weapons/Gear:
- .45 Handgun (1EP)
- Loaded Walking Stick(.5EP)
- Lucky Charm (Stick .5EP)
Notes:
- Loaded Walking Stick: CCB +2, 1D+1
- Charm: +-1 on any die, once per game
PPS: OK, this is way beyond what I'm envisioning for my character, but it's cool:
Link: Kingsman: The Secret Service - "Pub Fight" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ90eU8WAKE)
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theres is a martial arts skill for your bartitsu page 103
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theres is a martial arts skill for your bartitsu page 103
I think the 'Martial Artist' skill is written for 'unarmed' figures. Note the closing statement, 'Additionally, the model will no longer suffer an automatic hit before Close Combat begins.' This implies that the figure doesn't have a close combat weapon, which shouldn't apply to someone with a stick.
I wouldn't argue with the bonuses, and it could apply, but it isn't written for a figure with a stick/cane/etc... Perhaps a house rule, until there is something official, and just apply the bonuses. A discussion point for the campaign members.
PS:
1. The 'Strike to Kill' skill is interesting, in that it doesn't imply a figure without a weapon, except that it requires the 'Martial Artist', which implies 'Unarmed'. If we house-rule 'Martial Artist', this is OK.
2. The follow-on 'Fists of Iron' skill from 'Strike to Kill' is emphatically for an 'Unarmed' figure. It would be nice if there was another skill that emulated this for figures with some type of weapon in Close Combat. Considering some of the monsters I've encountered which have APs or extreme toughness, this is pretty much a must for all Threshold Agents. Although it will have to be pretty experienced ones, if there are two required skills to get to 'Fists of Iron'.
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We did a few games yesterday, and we had a discussion on the Bayonet. One of the players disagrees on the cost vs the benefits.
His point is there is a set cost for the benefits of a spear, which are not reflected in buying a knife and attaching it to a rifle. I'm not sure I disagree, but is that how this is supposed to work? Are you paying for the bonuses by buying the gear, or is there any wiggle room on this? Could we drop a +1 off the bayonet in CC, and still keep some of the spear benefit (CCB +2)? The AP bonus doesnt change, and there is a penalty in CC because the bayonetted rifle remains a 2-handed weapon.
Discussion?
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No Discussion- I don't think a Bayonet is a "special" enough item to really warrant diffrent rules.
The point of Strange Aeons is its approachable. 2nd edition is the bloated rules heavy beast of the family. If you're going to do Somthing fantastic with game design I suggest working on writing Scenerios or working to bring your favorite "weird fiction" into the game.
I.E. I've really been experimenting (and failing to do in a fun consistent way) with using boardgame components and map exploration to try and enhance discovery and gameplay. I.e.- Clue tokens, gates, horrible truths cards, Narative exploration or trying to write Scenerios based around my favorite xfiles scenerios.
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No Discussion- I don't think a Bayonet is a "special" enough item to really warrant diffrent rules
A fair number of the minis I would like to use have bayonets. Similarly slings and shields. And I guess grenades? I'd find it kind of nice to have 'official' rules for them because, well, rampant autism probably, but still.
(I'd go with bayonets count as spears you can't throw but can have equipped at the same time as a rifle, slings count as short bows, Great War surplus grenades count as dynamite and I don't know what to do about shields)
(And I reckon the above mentioned cane would count as a club)
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Alrighty then: As a dude who has trained with a Bayonet, my suggestion is it's net effect isn't that amazing. It's basically a tactic to enhance CQC technique in modern warfare. It's wildly diffrent when compared to its historical counterparts, and its net effect shouldn't be more than a club or knife in this game.
My thought would be make it into a Scenerio rule- or call attention to it in scenerio writing. I.e.- Capture the proto shoggoth- your team has been equipped with capture gear and ranged cqc equipment like bayonets, light nets and cattle prods to subdue this creature in combat rather than kill it.
Or- make it a "equip-skill"- although this model lacks proper combat discipline, "affix bayonets" or "brace" - represents basic training that allows one adjacent model in base to base contact to re-roll his to hit dice once per game. This skill represents skilled bayonet use, providing an assisted strike with a club or stick, perhaps a well timed taunt about the monsters momma.
I would warn to stay away from bayonet or too many additional equip items- less the Swiss Army knife effect or the "lucky charm" effect where a peice of equipment is designed as a much include for competitive play. As a skill that may help out a weaker fighter or academic it's competing against the rest of the skill tree thus representing a choice of training rather than a "special super knife" and it's inclusion comes at an opportunity cost rather than points.
***Edit*** @Mike - While we are at it- I allways thought a skill that reduces the point cost of a fighter in campaign mode would be a nice way to help leverage out fighter injuries. Nominate skill as "pension plan".
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meh... I like to keep it simple.
I have been charging/using bayonets as if they were the same as a spear. I have an old figure with a WW1 trench-broom (pump shotgun with a bayonet) and I just charge him for a double barrel shotgun plus a spear.
My 2 cents,
Scott
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Where is thumbs up?
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Latest forray into making teams, and my "rifleman" ended up with Con 8 after the last session. Looking at where I could take this guy, and perusing through the skills list, I ran across 'Burly'. Really? Does this do what I think it does?
Oh! Remington produced the Browning Auto-5 self-loading shotgun as the Model 11 from 1905 to 1947. Hmmm...
Well, with the other skills, like 'Hail of Bullets', perhaps I'm getting excited about nothing. Perhaps 'Burly' won't let me equip, and use, two shotguns per Action? Cause it is possible to work up an Agent to have a Con of 7 and outfit him/her (not immediately, but eventually) with skills and stat upgrades to get to that.
The model would need to have a Con upgrade to 7 ('Tough' and 'Thick Skin' would do it), and then 'Shoot'em Up' and 'Burly'. 'Hail of Bullets' if necessary. If 'Hail of Bullets' isn't necessary, a Dex reduction would be really nice.
Am I mis-interpreting the rules, or can a model equip, and shoot, two 2-Handed weapons with 'Burly'? If not, why is 'Burly' there?
PS: My Agent started with the free skill of 'Tough', BTW. So, there is room for even more nastiness. If the Dex increase comes along, I could add 'Armour Piercing', 'Crack Shot' or 'Firearms Enthusiast' for really 'offensive' firepower.
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.... I think I see smoke coming out of your ears ....
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.... I think I see smoke coming out of your ears ....
Oh! That must be that burning rubber smell I'm detecting.
None of my opponents will agree with using two shotguns in an Action. Not a surprise.
Armour Piercing bullets? There are Metal-Tipped Arrows, and Hollow-point bullets, but nothing to get through armoured creatures.
Anyone seen the Mythbusters episode when they tried to make and use 'Silver' bullets?
Hmmm... Perhaps this article, instead: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/5272iw/cmdrsquirrel_opines_about_silver_bullets/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/5272iw/cmdrsquirrel_opines_about_silver_bullets/)
And there are always lead bullets with specialized cores, or discarding sabot rounds, with silver or steel/tungsten.
There are tough monsters out there that just can't be taken down with a .22 pistol and a knife. Are we introducing them too early in the campaign?
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I think you are reading "Burly" correctly and yes it is a lofty goal and one you may need by the time you character gets that far (and good luck on that).
As to your question regarding critters unable to be hit... Critical hits are your best hope. Also, you have to think (in regards to designing your list) like a freaking Boy Scout on Crack o_o ....always prepared all the time for everything....at once...from different directions in a hellish scenario. This is HP Lovecraft-land. If it can go wrong, it will and that is the bad guys mission #1: Poke holes in your list. If you take nothing but a .22 cal pistol against Cthulhu expect to die fast.
A molotov cocktail or an axe can help alot early in the game. I like the old .45cal pistol or shotgun myself...then dynamite for a cure-all after I get the correct skill so as not to blow myself up too much... lol
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I think you are reading "Burly" correctly and yes it is a lofty goal and one you may need by the time you character gets that far (and good luck on that).
As to your question regarding critters unable to be hit... Critical hits are your best hope. Also, you have to think (in regards to designing your list) like a freaking Boy Scout on Crack o_o ....always prepared all the time for everything....at once...from different directions in a hellish scenario. This is HP Lovecraft-land. If it can go wrong, it will and that is the bad guys mission #1: Poke holes in your list. If you take nothing but a .22 cal pistol against Cthulhu expect to die fast.
A molotov cocktail or an axe can help alot early in the game. I like the old .45cal pistol or shotgun myself...then dynamite for a cure-all after I get the correct skill so as not to blow myself up too much... lol
Found this in the SA FAQ thread:
Quote from: -p 112 SA 2nd Ed
A model may never equip more than one 2-Hand weapon to its profile.
So, I was getting excited about nothing for 'Burley'. Darn.
I have to play this game a lot more. Starting out, you don't have a lot of choices, and I went with something with impact at range (Bolt-Action Rifle for keeping the Lurkers at bay, and for AP on big monsters), before I realized how badly the Dex 4+ Requirement is crippling my sniper-initiate. I haven't managed to get the Dex lowered on that model, and I can't take 'Lightning Fast' without first lowering the Dex. Now, I'm stuck with an equipment list that is hurting my team in the lower point games (only shoots once per turn, doesn't hit most of the time, can't Alert shoot, and I can't re-equip until I die). At the beginning of this game, and at low levels, a Shot-gun and a Cleaver would have been a much better choice. However, Shot-guns don't have AP at range. Unless one considers 12-gauge, Discarding-Sabot slug shells, which are capable of penetrating engine blocks (not around in the '30's, unfortunately).
Looking at the lists and weapons available, and the way that models develop, I'm seeing an even more serious limitation to survival. I need to build a few lists and play them out to see how they work.
PS: Hmmm... First Shot-gun Slug ammo was developed in 1898 for smooth-bore guns. Not as effective as rifles, but good for large game at short ranges (400 yards). So, depending on the game design for Shot-guns, you could do AP2 slugs at tabletop ranges. Perhaps 8", rather than 10", but considering the loss of effectiveness of shot-gun pellets at any ranges, you could extend the range of slug ammo in Shot-guns. Fiddle with it for game balance?
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I would keep it simple and play a list or three before tweaking anything too much. IMHO, half the beauty of this game is its simplicity.
With that said: ... I have several modifications I have been using. They are in my gallery in two sections for Extras and Custom Races ;) Scott's Gallery (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=11035)
Regarding slug ammo for shot guns, I figured that is what is loaded in the shotguns normally; buckshot costs extra-gives spread and is optional... Now, as to why shotguns have a shorter range than a pistol I will never understand. (maybe I am too much of a war gamer) :`
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I would keep it simple and play a list or three before tweaking anything too much. IMHO, half the beauty of this game is its simplicity.
With that said: ... I have several modifications I have been using. They are in my gallery in two sections for Extras and Custom Races ;) Scott's Gallery (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=11035)
Regarding slug ammo for shot guns, I figured that is what is loaded in the shotguns normally; buckshot costs extra-gives spread and is optional... Now, as to why shotguns have a shorter range than a pistol I will never understand. (maybe I am too much of a war gamer) :`
Hmmm... Looking through the Master Weapons Table, I now notice the Buck Shot Ammo entry. I guess this backs up your statement that the Shot-guns are using slugs. I had to look up .22 cal ammo for range and lethality. I expected it to be a longer range than slugs, but it isn't. .22 Long Rifle rounds are said to be lethal up to 400-ish yards. Which is about the lethality range of Shot-gun slugs. And, getting hit by the equivalent of a .50 cal slug will hurt much more than a tiny .22 cal.
So, the range could be the same for Shot-guns with slugs and .22 cal pistols.
I still want AP ammo, though!
I like your galleries, and your special rules. I will pass the rules on to my group.
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I finally had a chance to read through my friend's copy of the rule book (2nd Ed), and there is a thing about not being able to equip more than one 2-Handed weapon. So, there is the answer for my "Burly" tangent. No shooting two 2-Handed weapons, at least until 3rd Ed.
Pg 19 - 'A model may fire any two non 2-Hand Ranged weapons in the same Shoot Action. A -1 penalty to Dexterity is incurred on all shots, but both weapons can be fired at their normal rate and damage. The weapons need not both be of the same type."
Pg 112 - '2-Hand - ... A model may never equip more than one 2-Hand weapon to its profile."
So, there is the advantage of 'Burly', you can carry the golfbag of weapons, but you have to choose which is in use. And, if you want to use a 'Ready' weapon, you'd have to take 'Lightning Fast', too. And perhaps some house rules about only using a Bolt-Action Rifle for one Shoot Action a turn (or equip an semi-automatice rifle or carbine)?
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The 'shoot em up' skill removes the penalty for shooting two guns at once, and the 'hail of bullets' skill (requires 'shoot em up' lets you shoot one two handed and one one handed weapon at once.
So I would tend to say dual wielding Tommy guns would 'count as' shooting a Tommy gun and .45 pistol, so 4 attacks at 10"/1D+2 damage.
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Next silly thing to come up on weapons.
Lewis Guns and Browning Automatic Rifles (M1918 BAR) (and any equivalents).
Both of these were produced in 30.06 calibres, so similar to .303, and made to be carried by infantry squads. Within SA terms, I'd consider these to be shorter ranged (not on a tripod), but not needing a Loader. And as lighter weapons, perhaps nearer in cost to an Elephant Gun.
Range: 20", Rate: 3D, Damage: 1D+2, Special: Ready, Strafe, 2-Hand [Edit. Should have been this]
BTW: Lots of different types of ammo available through the 1930's, including Armour Piercing, Incediary, Tracer, and "reduced-charge" for target practice and use in built-up areas.
Thoughts?
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I'd be happy to treat Lewis Guns and B.A.Rs as vanilla .30 cal machine guns.
Any agent sufficiently strong and skilled to wield a B.A.R. effectively as a shoulder weapon could pick up the Action Hero skill to do so.
But don't get me wrong. I've spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos of people shooting Tommy Guns.
Here, for instance is Gun Jesus of Forgotten Weapons and his mate doing a shooting competition that involves running around shooting at targets comparing a B.A.R. with an FG-42 paratrooper rifle from the Second World War:-
https://youtu.be/vw3eKWvDGqQ
The B.A.R. is clearly a heavy gun. By the end of the stages the guy is having trouble raising it to his shoulder. This is something I could see as becoming an issue when hunting cthulhoid monstrositites in the catacombs under Paris.
So I think treating it as a vanilla machine gun and respresenting improved mobility with skill is Close Enough for Threshold work.
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Sorry about the typo. The stats should have been '2-Hand'.
Yes, both weapons were over 15 pounds, and meant to be fired in a supported (bi-pod or emplacement), or from-the-hip, manner. They even came with slings (built-in Bi-pod for the BAR), to assist with this. The BAR wouldn't quite be as bad as firing an Elephant Gun, but it wasn't a light rifle, and never intended for prolonged shoulder-fired engagements.
An interesting video of the Full-Auto BAR in action: Youtube.com - Browning BAR Full Auto (http://Youtube.com - Browning BAR Full Auto)
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I am treating both the Lewis and the BAR as basically the same and I have the stats in my gallery. Basically a Thompson unless you have 2 man crew then a somewhat weaker MG.
Scott's Custom Items (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=24100)
My Gallery (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=11035)
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I am treating both the Lewis and the BAR as basically the same and I have the stats in my gallery. Basically a Thompson unless you have 2 man crew then a somewhat weaker MG.
Scott's Custom Items (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=24100)
My Gallery (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=11035)
I think you're missing something, or I am.
A Bolt-Action Rifle uses rifle ammunition, a Tommy Gun uses pistol ammunition. The .30 Machine Gun uses rifle ammunition, too. The rate of fire (how many rounds out of the the muzzle) determines the Rate (I hope).
The Lewis Gun and the BAR were designed as "portable" section support weapons, for troops on the move. Both use the same ammunition as the Bolt-Action Rifle and the .30 Machine Gun. Although heavy (certainly 2-Hand), a 'Loader' is not required for either a Lewis Gun, nor a BAR, by design. Depending on the length of a scenario, neither the Lewis Gun, nor the BAR, should run out of ammunition. A house rule could be put in place for other team members carrying extra magazines to share weight, but they wouldn't be considered 'Loaders'.
Now that I look at the Master Weapon Table, though, I see that the Bolt-Action Rifle gets an AP1, but the .30 Machine Gun does not. I can recall witnessing a fire power demo with an FN C1 rifle (semi-automatic, 7.62mm [.308 cal]) knocking down a cinderblock wall with repeated shots. A Lewis Gun, a BAR, and a .30 Machine Gun could do the same (and there are Youtube videos of this).
All the above to say that using a Lewis Gun, or a BAR, as a Tommy Gun is not even close to accurate, with or without a loader. And any rifle ammunition weapon should have the same AP rating (unless using armour piercing ammunition, which isn't included in the rules).
How expensive should a Lewis Gun or BAR be? More expensive than a Tommy Gun, but cheaper than a .30 Machine Gun? If we incorporate them at all, I don't see anyone taking a .30 Machine Gun.
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IMHO, you are way over-thinking it.
There is (IMHO) no place for 'realism' in this game. I am an old grognard WW2 gamer, so we will not even go into the differences between weapons and ammo... It is simply not covered in this game (again, IMHO).
I simply read the weapons as stereotypes. The "Clever" for example is not "just a clever" but could also be a Bowie knife, or a combat knife (esp. in the hands of a trained person).
I only added the BAR because I have several figures with it and my main concerns were not to break the game, over power the BAR or make it completely redundant. I think it passes muster on all 3 of those.
All IMHO of course,
Scott
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IMHO, you are way over-thinking it.
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Very likely. The game 'Tanks' threw out realism for playability.
So to, does 'Wings of Glory', my current favorite tabletop minis game. I like the simplicity, but the retention of the feel of dogfighting. The simulationists don't like the over-simplification, and there are many compromises.
I am using this Forum for a sounding board, and I haven't even approached my play partners with this 'portable MG' idea. I wanted to see if there was something already play-tested, before I introduced a game-busting twist. The Lewis Gun/BAR thing might be one of those things.
But, being CDO (OCD in the correct alphabetical order), I need consistency in my rules.
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Incidentally, Lewis gun teams could be as many as four men (or more), no1 being the firer (who didn't actually carry the gun into action, he carried the tripod), no2 being the loader (and who carried the gun into the firing position and then helped no1 get the gun into action), and no3 and no4 being the ammo men who carried the heavy ammo drums (the no4 would bring the ammo to the gun group in a crate from the rear, the no3 would pass each drum to the no2, who would load it on the gun). In firing teams of several guns, you could even have no5 and no6, who were basically spare runners for any gun team that needed them. In charge of all was the firing officer who directed fire.
Each man had to be prepared to step up into the role of the man in front of him to replace casualties and no doubt in practice a full gun team was a rare luxury.
The weapon itself, much like a Bren or any other magazine fed support weapon, lends itself to be fired by a single man, but actually keeping it in action beyond a single drum of ammo requires a lot more than that! A single soldier cannot carry the heavy gun and the relatively large amount of ammo required to keep it operational.
Of course in a pulp setting, you can obviously work around stuff like that because you're dealing with a comic book world where such realities as ammunition, range and fatigue are abstracted to a large degree for the sake of the narrative.
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Doctrine/policy of use is not necessarily how something is used in the field. Troops will almost always find different ways of using equipment. "No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection."
Citation
For most conspicuous bravery and extraordinary devotion to duty when in charge of a Lewis gun section in the front line trenches, in which a strong enemy raid was attempted. During an intense bombardment Corporal Kaeble remained at the parapet with his Lewis gun shouldered ready for action, the field of fire being very short. As soon as the barrage lifted from the front line, about fifty of the enemy advanced towards his post. By this time the whole of his section except one had become casualties. Corporal Kaeble jumped over the parapet, and holding his Lewis gun at the hip, emptied one magazine after another into the advancing enemy, and although wounded several times by fragments of shells and bombs, he continued to fire and entirely blocked the enemy by his determined stand. Finally, firing all the time, he fell backwards into the trench mortally wounded. While lying on his back in the trench he fired his last cartridges over the parapet at the retreating Germans, and before losing consciousness shouted to the wounded about him: "Keep it up, boys; do not let them get through! We must stop them !" The complete repulse of the enemy attack at this point was due to the remarkable personal bravery and self-sacrifice of this gallant non-commissioned officer, who died of his wounds shortly afterwards.
— London Gazette, Supplement No. 30903, dated 16 September 1918[5]
Transported to hospital, Corporal Joseph Kaeble died of his wounds the next night, 9 June.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kaeble (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kaeble)
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Corporal Kaeble clearly had the Action Hero skill permitting him disregard the Loader trait for his machine gun. :-)
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Plus, he's defending a trench, so didn't have to carry the ammunition drums anywhere!
There's plenty of heroic actions where single soldiers have operated an artillery piece after the rest of the crew have been taken out, but that doesn't make them an individual weapon!
Like I said, it's Pulp, it's fun stuff, so the realities can be stretched for the sake of the narrative. How far they can stretch is up to whoever plays the game.