Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: joe5mc on 26 February 2018, 02:22:29 PM
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My thoughts: https://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/is-wargaming-getting-too-easy.html
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I would say it's been getting more accessible rather than easy.
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I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.
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I think people too often conflate EASY with LAZY.
I have for more fun with a game of ASOBAH or AOS than i did with rogue stars or gurps.
there's always going to be people that want a game where you can roll to see how much gravel your soldiers footfalls displace as they march to the barracks to get ready for orientation But I have a suspicion that these people were always going to be in a minority.
it just seems more obvious now that the tabletop community is more exposed and people who perhaps wouldn't have considered themselves involved enough to say, join a forum, now can and do engage alongside the gravel botherers.
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Heaven forbid we should make it easy to get into wargaming. These people need to suffer for their enjoyment lol
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From the blog post it seems that you like:
Undecipherable rules
Having to build a table of terrain (presumably from scratch)
Lots of book keeping
Rolling buckets of dice
Lots of charts and cross referencing
Arithmetic
Having an excuse to practice your calligraphy skills
And don't like:
Tutorial videos
Pre-painted models
Lack of terrain
Stat cards
Custom dice
One box games
It kind of comes across as a little elitist and a bit fuddy duddy. It's exactly what keeps people from getting involved in gaming.
Back around 89/90 when I bought WFB 3rd edition that rule book was a daunting tome for someone who had never played a wargame before. It sat on the shelf for a couple of years because it was a bit too complex an introduction for me and even though I had a fair few figures I still couldn't play it because I didn't have a suitable army of models. The amount of models needed and the cost of that excluded me from the game. There is enjoyment and satisfaction to be had from collecting and painting an army over time but if it's going to take several months to do that before you can even play a game it's going to put people off. Games that enable players to start small and that give the total beginner everything they need are a really good thing (AoS versus WFB for example). It's not that people (these young 'uns) are lazy it's that everyone wants to be able to play without the excessive hard slog that will inevitably kill the passion of many. Gaming doesn't need lots of hurdles.
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I can't agree with you. Games like X-Wing or Armada are just another way to play a wargame. My own take on wargaming has evolved from fantasizing about building gigantic armies to play Waterloo, to a more modest approach: start with skirmish forces for games like Saga, Sharp Practice or Pikeman's Lament. Then they might, if I find the time and nothing else catch my eye, be the base for something bigger. I rather like the amazing range of terrain pieces that I can chose from nowadays. I am not very skilled at building things, but like a good table as much as any wargamer worth his salt. Companies like 4Ground has saved me dozen of hours trying to put together a building that would have been less durable and no doubt uglier.
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Me, I might not like all the changes, but I sure do appreciate painted figures and stat cards.
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"Is Wargaming Getting Too Easy?"
No. Next question.
Even though it's couched in friendly language and contains some nice "I'm not saying..." and "you are free to..." sorts of phrases, it still feels at heart like yet another iteration of "If you don't do wargaming the way I do wargaming you are doing it wrong", with the added bonus of a nice dollop of Four Yorkshiremen. Kids today, eh?
Me, I prefer trying to find common ground with my fellow gamers over looking for ways to feel superior to them. It's an urge I have to fight sometimes, and I don't always succeed, but at least I do try to fight it.
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I think the blog post is actually rather measured and non-exclusivist or elitist, to be honest.
I read it as a plea not to allow the (understandable, and in many ways very positive) proliferation of out-of-the-box gaming to stop people exploring the many other sides of the hobby, particularly those that involve making things and painting things and writing things down. I can't see anything to object to in this.
I have no problem whatever with small-scale games using ready-painted miniatures (though I don't currently play any, but then again I don't do that much gaming of any sort at the moment) but my strong preference, in a world where there were no other calls on my time or energy or enthusiasms, would be for grand scale big battle gaming with lots of hand-made scenery, mostly because big projects are fun, and I like to make things (though I don't do it especially well).
But big projects all take more time and space than I currently have, so it's small-scale stuff for now, or in some cases just painting things I may not use for a while if at all. And I do this because I enjoy it. If others enjoy different things, good for them. It's a hobby, after all. But it's a hobby with lots of different aspects (historical research, painting and making, gaming, collecting, you name it) and it would be a shame if some people weren't aware of some of those aspects.
Judging from the many impressive projects here on the LAF, though, there's a good bit of life in the old-school approach to wargaming. So maybe we needn't be too worried.
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Sigh.
There is nothing that needs to change for you, you aren't being forced into anything.
Play the rules you want to, even if <gasp!> the rules aren't the most current or <gasp!> aren't "supported."
If you think 7 hour turns are awesome, then play that. If you like the multi-paged fold out poster sized "quick" reference sheets, then use them.
Buy what you want. Build what you want. Play what you want.
Other will do the same thing.
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Way I see it, wargaming hasn't been changing, it's just that the space that used to exist between wargaming and boardgaming has been getting gradually filled in, resulting a in a single rich gradient where two formerly separate concepts used to be. The ends are still the same, but there's all kinds of middle that people can walk around on now to find things they like.
I'm generally in favor of this sort of proliferation of options. It's an "everybody gets what they want" situation. The only people who lose are people who's niche is too small for them to find other players, but that scenario would imply that they didn't truly have as many fellow enthusiasts before as they thought, just people who had to settle for lack of what they really wanted. Which still leaves them in the cold, granted, but the terms are fairer than under the previous alternative.
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Some unfair criticism of the OP here, what what is essentially an opinion price.
I’m a big lover of X-Wing and simplicity because I can get other people to play with me! It can also be just as narrative as other games, which is always the way I play it, but unfortunately the internet community is mostly obsessed with tournament play so from the outside it looks very one sided.
I grew up writing my own rules for playing solo games mainly because I had second hand copies of hero quest etc which I couldn’t make head nor tail of. I used to really enjoy elaborating on existing rules for board games I owned, and combining them. I’m sure there are kids still doing that sort of thing.
I wouldn’t worry about simplicity interfering with wargaming. Yes, certain designs have ‘tightened’ but in my opinion a more accessible hobby is a healthier hobby and the more complicated options still exist for those that want them.
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I believe what I wrote, although I think some might be reading a harder stance than I intended.
I don't think anyone one thing I mentioned is a big problem. Internet tutorials can be good. Pre-paints can be good. Out of the box terrain can be good. X-Wing IS good.
My point is that all of these things put together encourage a somewhat cookie-cutter approach to the hobby, and I think that is a bit of shame. I think it would be better to encourage people to dig deep into the hobby and give all of its aspects a try. You may not like them, that's fine. (I don't much care for converting), but unless you give them a fair try, you may never know, and you might be missing out on the great enjoyment that comes from personal creativity.
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I believe what I wrote, although I think some might be reading a harder stance than I intended.
I don't think anyone one thing I mentioned is a big problem. Internet tutorials can be good. Pre-paints can be good. Out of the box terrain can be good. X-Wing IS good.
My point is that all of these things put together encourage a somewhat cookie-cutter approach to the hobby, and I think that is a bit of shame. I think it would be better to encourage people to dig deep into the hobby and give all of its aspects a try. You may not like them, that's fine. (I don't much care for converting), but unless you give them a fair try, you may never know, and you might be missing out on the great enjoyment that comes from personal creativity.
The problem of your point is that it starts with a fallacy: that a "cookie-cutter" approach to start into wargaming precludes encouraging people to dig deeper. That is non-sequituur. A person can start with X-Wing or Wings of Glory and then want to learn more about the dynamics of aerial combat; from there that person can continue digging deeper and follow a more old-school path. The opposite might also be true: people that starts old school and then move on plug-and-play games such as Armada. You are presuming that only one path can be taken, when the truth is that there are as many approaches to wargaming as wargamers.
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What makes it particularly ironic is that the OP is author of Frostgrave - a game with many official scenarios, campaign supplements, offcial (boxed set) miniatures, and a very strong 'canon' background.
All things the erstwhile OP seems to be bemoaning.
Really? :o Out of touch gamer writes game?!
I don't think the blog post mentioned 'spoon feeding' though (something that was apparently killing creativity back in the early 90's!). ;)
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Antonio J Carrasco - That's a very fair retort. Maybe my first assumption is wrong. I can only comment on what I have personally seen, but it is a huge hobby and my personal experiences may not actually match with the the majority of cases.
Humakt - I don't think my being the author of Frostgrave is at odds with my post. I am advocating for greater creative depth in the hobby. Yes, Frostgrave has plenty of associated material you can buy, but I believe I have been consistent in my advocacy within the game as well. The background to the game is actually quite light and intentionally vague.
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I don't mind things getting a little easier.
90% of games still require you to paint models. so xwing means nothing really. and allot of people (if not most I think) repaint them in some way it seems. but at least it means you both have some kind of painted army and I don't have to walk away from playing against grey plastic while being called an elitist.
rules getting easier is fine. I quite like picking up an osprey rules set and being able to play quickly. especially when I lack space and want to try allot of things.
but simplicity isn't always great, 40k is supposed to be simple now. but its a trainwreck. a complete joke and practically unplayable.
I don't really remember what else I read. I was distracted by passive aggressive posters
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I don’t think that wargaming is getting easier. I think that the better availability of figures, game aids and terrain is doing the opposite. I feel the need to put a lot of effort in to make a respectable game.
If I think back to when I started in the late 1970s, we were content with a green baize cloth as the ground, with books underneath for hills and a few bits of lichen as trees & bushes. The figures were crudely painted compared to modern standards and had very simple hand cut hardboard bases that varied in size. The figures were generic (Celts can also be Viking Berserkers) and ten identical figures were painted in different colours to “individualise” them.
My recent projects have included a huge 1476 Swiss verses Burgundy game where the 250+ figures are mostly Perry WOTR plastics with a lot of converted items so that no two are identical. There are custom movement trays and the bases are exact sizes to the milimeter. There are flags of the period, printed with a laser printer onto paper. The base cloth was made using teddy bear fur and dyed by me. The terrain is hand built based on Schillings illustrations.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42627.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42627.0)
I have another similar project for Agincourt.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=78682.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=78682.0)
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That was a well written and well reasoned opinion piece (as was the original article that prompted it).
Given the definition of "easy" the author was using, Yes, Wargaming has become too easy. People are responding comparing the hobby now to when they started wargaming (all the way back in the 90's in some cases :o).
Go back another 20 or 30 years to when some of us started in this hobby and compare.
You wanted figures, you made or converted them yourself. You wanted scenery, you made it from scratch or cannibalised the model railway guys stuff. As for wargame rules, you wrote them. You wanted background information, uniform colours or flag designs you went to the local library and ordered a rare and obscure book written by someone called Funken through the inter library loan service. Waited a month for it to arrive then in 7 days hand transcribed the information you needed into your own scrapbook. Along with your best artistic copies of the uniform plates and flags. Or worse, had to drop into the library every evening after school for a couple of hours to do it because the book was "reading only" and you were not allowed to take it home.
So yes, in true Yorkshire style it is too easy (in the OP sense) these days. The negligible amount of time and effort people have to expend to get a "wargame" experience these days means the vast majority have no real attachment or investment in the hobby. It has become a "disposable" thing, people throw money at it, try it, dump it and move on to something else. As time and technology has progressed people have become self entitled to a point where everything has to be instantly available and with a minimum of effort.
It would be an interesting exercise to ask a novice "wargamer" today to stage a game of Spion Kop from a box of Airfix British Napoleonic Infantry, a box of Airfix ACW Confederates and some plasticine and araldite. WITHOUT looking at the internet.
(That is assuming Lady Smith still gets relieved in history lessons these days)
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I really enjoyed your blog post.
I have to say it was the WOTC prepainted Star Wars miniatures that got me into wargaming in the first place. It was my gateway drug into a much more creative hobby. It was easy to learn, and required very little in terms of terrain. It didn’t take long before I was building 3D terrain, and modifying the rules.
I also love board games, and I appreciate that many of them have taken a page out of the wargaming book and created games with maps and miniatures. I Like the diversity.
I think you make a good point when it you mention missing the ‘old school’ feel for games. It might be nostalgia, but I feel the same way. I’ve only been in the hobby for about 15 years, but things do seem to change pretty quickly. You are not alone though, didn’t they just republish some of the old D and D rule sets from the 70’s?
Anyways . . .
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It would be an interesting exercise to ask a novice "wargamer" today to stage a game of Spion Kop from a box of Airfix British Napoleonic Infantry, a box of Airfix ACW Confederates and some plasticine and araldite. WITHOUT looking at the internet.
It might actually be more interesting to get some of the "old school" wargamers to do it and see if they still have as much enjoyment out of the process, all the while knowing what's available now.
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Personally I like that some aspects have gotten 'easier' such as terrain and playing aids, because when I started out it was all hand made stuff and to be quite frank...mine looked like arse lol.
On the other hand I have found that some aspects I dislike, take for example GW's rule of only producing rules for units that have minis, all good in one sense...but also bad in that I am seeing less interesting conversions.
Everybody now has the same plastic heroes leading armies and it all starts to feel the same, it may be good at being less daunting for newcomers(a reason GW has actually given) but it also causes a definite loss.
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I thought it was an interesting post, and nothing "elitist" about it at all.
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Just a question: the good old days were that good? Or is it just nostalgia over our lost youth? In my case, I think, is the second. When I started with wargaming -1988- I had a lot of free time that I could spent with my mates at the club, gaming until 1:00 or 2:00 AM without feeling tired. Actually the opposite: the sense of elation after a whole day of gaming and laughing with your friends was almost overwhelming. I distinctly remember that it took me a couple of hours to fall asleep, that excited I was!
Those feelings are gone now. Even when I manage to find the time for a game with my friends or my kids (advantages of having three 20s kids, two boys and one girl, that have inherited the love of their father for wargaming!) I can't feel what I felt 30 years ago, when I was young and full of energy... and with 20/20 eyesight!
Naturally then when I recall those Koenig Krieg v1 games, with our Freikorps15 SYW armies, the memories are, somehow, more tasty even though the terrain we used was "scarce" (to say politely) and our armies not as wonderfully variated like they are now (my SYW Hannoverians saw a lot of action, from the fields of Western Germany in the 1750s and 1760s, to the wilderness of America in the 1770s!). But we were young and had a lot of free time, so...
Don't know, but I believe that our complaints are against what we have lost, not against what we have now.
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Don't know, but I believe that our complaints are against what we have lost, not against what we have now.
Totally agree. Much of it is rose tinted memories and also a reluctance to accept change. We've all been there.
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I liked the blog post.
To me, the biggest benefits of RPGs and wargames are the creativity that they can foster, through providing "jumping-off points" for the imagination. That's why I think Warhammer became worse with every edition, even though the actual rules may have improved. And I suspect the same has happened with D&D. I had a look at some of the fifth-edition stuff recently, and what struck me is how prescriptive it is compared with the sparse monster descriptions (for example) that one got in OD&D or BECMI or Runequest. Compare the reams of uninspiring orcish culture in Volo's guide (or whatever it's called) with the description of orcs in Dragon Warriors: "Orcs are the archetypal henchthings of evil." The latter is all you need.
So, while I'm all for convenience and availability, I do think that many games today leave too little to the players' imaginations. And a lot of the "filler" of modern gaming books (RPG or wargaming) is just so bland. Yes, Glorantha and Tekumel had huge amounts of detail, but it was largely "killer".
Now, all the prescriptive fluff that accompanies modern games can be ignored by players - but I suspect it tends not to be. And that's a shame, I think. I really like games in which a generic description can be fleshed out in many different ways - as with a HotT unit, a set of SoBH stats or a Frostgrave soldier profile.
And I though this bit was excellent advice:
"Start small. Buy a few figs. Paint them. Come up with their story. Design a scenario that is specific to your figures. Write it all down. Build a small piece of terrain that features in that story. Then play the game. Afterwards, write about it. Blog about it. Decide what happens next in the story and see if you need new figures or new terrain. Let it spiral upwards and onwards out of control. To me, that is the joy of the hobby."
I don't recall ever having seen nice-looking prepainted figures, though!
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Go back another 20 or 30 years to when some of us started in this hobby and compare.
You wanted figures, you made or converted them yourself. You wanted scenery, you made it from scratch or cannibalised the model railway guys stuff. As for wargame rules, you wrote them. You wanted background information, uniform colours or flag designs you went to the local library and ordered a rare and obscure book written by someone called Funken through the inter library loan service. Waited a month for it to arrive then in 7 days hand transcribed the information you needed into your own scrapbook. Along with your best artistic copies of the uniform plates and flags. Or worse, had to drop into the library every evening after school for a couple of hours to do it because the book was "reading only" and you were not allowed to take it home.
Being one of the old-guard myself I have to say that I enjoyed the research and work that went into the Hobby back then. I also lament the fact that much of our hobby today lacks the depth that resulted from such work. BUT I do not lament the fact that the hobby has gotten easier (ie more accessible) The maturing of the hobby has brought a wealth of options with varying degrees of complexity. It has brought us excellent products to improve the visual aspects of our game and as a busy 66-year-old graybeard I like the shorter play time and prepainted figures (although I still paint figures as well). YET I do miss the large massed army games of my past and while I still have my old Airfix armies carefully painted and mounted on my handmade card bases they rarely see the table anymore.
So is the hobby getting too easy? Maybe but that's not all bad and there are still some out there doing the research and painting and building and playing the complex rules of old because some of us truly like that kind of thing. That being said I agree with the OP on this point try going a little old school once in a while it will better your gaming experience and broaden the hobby we all enjoy so much.
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When I go to the odd gaming club show there are two types of people. The old grumpy guys and the people having fun. The grumps seem to love some ultra clunky old system to go with their well worn old armies. The people having fun are usually playing the newer shorter and funner sort of game.
Would they be the grumpy old fella's with a massive table of Naps who seem more interested in scowling and reading their copies of 'Arms Folded Monthly'? lol I've seen pics from shows and there's always that table somewhere.
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Blanket categorisation of people into either ‘fun cool kids like us’ or grumpy old men to be sneered at? I don’t think it’s as simple as that, is it?
A number of things are being imputed in this discussion which Joe didn’t say at all in his blog entry.
Why so divisive? It’s really quite uncongenial.
Straight out agressive is as unwelcome as passive aggressive - and this thread seems to have an unlovely slug of both already. It’s a shame we can’t seem to discuss these things without getting snarky and trying to do down other people.
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Agreed! I thought the OP was fine, just making a point, and then the catfights started. Joe is taking a beating between this thread and the "I don't like your way of doing rules" thread in the Frostgrave section.
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Too easy for whom, though? I don't think this is supposed to be a competition. :)
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Is Wargaming Getting Too Easy to get into as a hobby?
It will never be too easy. My take away from joe5mc and the Times , you need to read both, is that we should explore all aspects of the hobby and choose those that are rewarding, challenging and enjoyable.
For me I enjoy painting figures so prepaints are a no go but I don't like building house so 4 Ground stuff meets my needs. I have built a few thing in 15mm scale some houses and a log fort it's not something I really enjoy.
Assembling figures is another thing near the bottom of my list of whats enjoyable but I do it with the Little Britons figures because I enjoy painting and playing with them so much.
Some of the conviences help us focus on the things we enjoy or want to explore in more detail.
My 2 cents worth.
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Blanket categorisation of people into either ‘fun cool kids like us’ or grumpy old men to be sneered at? I don’t think it’s as simple as that, is it?
A number of things are being imputed in this discussion which Joe didn’t say at all in his blog entry.
Why so divisive? It’s really quite uncongenial.
Straight out agressive is as unwelcome as passive aggressive - and this thread seems to have an unlovely slug of both already. It’s a shame we can’t seem to discuss these things without getting snarky and trying to do down other people.
I do appreciate the approach taken in moderating LAF but I’m not sure you’re right here Captain. The OP posted a faintly foolish piece on his blog (the idea that the entry level for a hobby can be ‘too easy’) then trawls for comments. And is then hurt that people extract the urine in a fairly mild way:
https://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/courting-controversy.html
If we cannot have a laugh at his opinion then the only real answer to the OP’s question ‘is wargaming getting too easy’ is:
No
and this makes for a fairly pointless thread. Which to be fair, it is.
Possibly the best approach is for blog writers not to use LAF as a trawling site to attract comment on opinion pieces?
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Dear me, there seem to be some people getting really bent out of shape by this. What next? Blaming baby boomers for buying all the lead so the younger generation are only left with plastic?
Relax. It's a hobby, not a job.
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I do appreciate the approach taken in moderating LAF but I’m not sure you’re right here Captain. The OP posted a faintly foolish piece on his blog (the idea that the entry level for a hobby can be ‘too easy’) then trawls for comments. And is then hurt that people extract the urine in a fairly mild way:
https://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/courting-controversy.html
If we cannot have a laugh at his opinion then the only real answer to the OP’s question ‘is wargaming getting too easy’ is:
No
and this makes for a fairly pointless thread. Which to be fair, it is.
Possibly the best approach is for blog writers not to use LAF as a trawling site to attract comment on opinion pieces?
The problem is that you may think it's a foolish piece, but other people clearly don't.
Differences of opinion I can live with. We all disagree about things all the time. A range of figures or set of rules or a way of doing things I happen to love and you happen to hate, or vice-versa. Polite, proportionate, disagreement - great.
But there's absolutely no need to cross a line into unpleasant personal sniping, snide comments, and generalisations along the lines of 'Because these people disagree with my view, they must be idiots or wankers'.
It's the angry, hate-filled culture of way too much online discourse, including some other wargaming sites. But we've always worked hard to keep this forum a friendly, courteous, generally constructive place. Which is the way most members seem to like and want it.
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Thank you.
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Imagine if you told someone your hobby was mountain biking, and they asked more questions and found out you just like 'riding' the bike and they started bemoaning the idea that biking is now too easy.
You just bought a bike, already assembled from a shop?! You don't know how to dissassemble your bike down to the individual components?! You don't buy parts from an obscure retailer in Switzerland to upgrade it? You haven't studied the physics of biking and the aerodynamics of the individual parts?
The answer to the original question is 'No'.
There's nothing stopping that mountain biker from doing any of the below, I'm sure he's completely aware it all exists, however it's 'unnecessary' if all he wants to do is ride a bike.
Thank christ it's become this easy to wargame, that's the whole reason the hobby has survived, and even thrived, despite the onsluaght of video gaming. Anyone espousing we spend time actively encouraging people away from actually gaming and down the path of adding toilet mechanics to a wargame seems woefully out of touch with the world.
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....down the path of adding toilet mechanics to a wargame.....
Actually. it might be fun if your unit refuses to leave the woods because they've got the runs.
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I'll add my voice to those disagreeing with the idea that wargaming becoming easy is a bad thing. I dislike what I see in X-Wing and similar games (because in my blinkered view pre-painted miniatures are the spawn of satan!), but that doesn't mean that such games (as any popular game that get's people into the hobby is a good thing) are in any way bad. Indeed I'd suggest they're extremely good for the hobby if only for bringing people into contact into with the "wider" (if that makes any sense with such a big game) hobby.
Furthermore, I'd suggest the most effective way to drive people away from the hobby is to tell them that the stuff that they've spent time and a lot of money upon is "easy".
@scurv, I was part of an FB plastic modelling group which was ostensibly about improving people's modelling skills but instead took a perverse pleasure in having a go at people whose skills weren't terrific or people who happened to do a "popular" subject (and I'm hard pressed to think of a more personal hobby than scale modelling). It took the cake when people who disapproved of the group's members combing through people's facebook profiles to find pictures of whatever poor quality models they'd made to have a go at them were told to have: "a good look at themselves".
Leaving that group made my facebook a far better place.
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I shall aply my KISS principle to this vexing conundrum. Getting into wargaming is more than easy, it's so simple, any moron can do it. Buy/make some toy soldiers and trees and houses, add some dices/rules and a measuring stick thingy... then play with them... simple, innit!
::)
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For our hobby to grow and prosper, we need to make it easy for new people to start.
To support my new book about painting WW2 Germans, I started a Facebook Group. This now has 874 members.
Facebook gives you a lot of statistics about the Age, Location and Gender of the group members. The average age of my Facebook group is about 50. 70% are from English speaking countries and 99% are men.
Only 15% are under 35. I suspect that the younger ones are focussed on Games Workshop rather historical wargames. I think it is very important to get younger people to join our hobby. Therefore easy access is essential and desirable.
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Firstly - pretty sure 5,000 views isn't 'viral'.
The sad thing about it is that it isn't the people in this thread that are devisive - it's the original piece. I'm also not convinced about the 2nd blog post claiming it was a deliberate provocation either. It smacks of good old internet back peddling, mainly because it just suggests the title is challenging.
I'll tell you where the answer lies. I joined the hobby without knowing it as a child. Through my father I got into collecting and building models as well as figures. I liked to spend hours creating stories for them. For me that's where it started.
In the early '90's I found games workshop. Perhaps the fast food of wargaming. It wasn't untill I was into my late teens that I tried anything else, primarily because at that point GW moved from having so many experienced players playing in store to allow more space for newcomers.
The club I joined was predominantly historical and I got a rude awakening.
Since then my interests have been far more diverse, I still return to 40k (and feel this is the best edition in 10+ years) and other GW games.
But one thing for sure. Wargaming is not easier. It's more diverse. It's more popular. The challenges may have changed but they are still there. More choice doesn't mean 'easier'. It has become more accessible, more engaging and dare I say it, more appealing.
I see some gamers injecting fun into their games uncompromisingly. I challenge anyone to watch one of Levied Troops games at a show and not be attracted to the humour of several welcoming chaps in bounds of laughter for most of the day. I work with kids from challenging backgrounds and even they were drawn to that table above others.
Wargaming to me has always been about the 'experience' and being inclussive.
I have run games at salute for what will be five years this Salute and helped out with more before that. It drives me up the wall to see the huge lack of activity around some tables.
I'm mid 30's now. I still get excited about Salute, about playing games. I still have that buzz. It ebbs and flows.
However, I will say this - if you think wargaming/tabletop gaming is too easy compared to your experience 30 years ago, or that it should be made up of more challenges, more 'intellectually stimulating" then you need to go away and think harder. Because you are wrong.
I'm narked that a rules author didn't think a blog post like this through first - especially one of Osprey who's approach seems to be, and should be praised for, delivering decent rule sets on a budget.
Finally, I'll leave you with this reflection. When I joined the gaming club in my late teens, despite GW's drive in recruiting nw gamers, I was told it was a dying hobby. It was because of the challenges mentioned here thst it was dying. It was the same sort of guys saying it was dying as those now suggesting it should be more like the golden old days. Well it's more popular now than it ever has been in my memory. More diverse, more inclussive to all ages, sexes and genders. More open to play styles. It's not dying anymore. It's thriving.
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Firstly - pretty sure 5,000 views isn't 'viral'.
*smirk*
Did you know the guy who wrote The Room now permanently pretends he meant it to be funny from the start. Don't know what brought that to mind, just a random fact.
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I'll tell you another interesting yet not viral fact.
On the random platypus community youtube channel you can find a whole host of wargaming pieces from reviews, tutorials to Salute montages. The most popular? I review of a dremel router table. When I say popular - 11k views and growing!!!! :o
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Instead of blaming the readers here for reacting negatively maybe you should also spend some time speaking to Joe for purposefully trying to bait people in the first place?
It's not up to me what people say on their blogs. It is up to the LAF moderator team to keep this forum the civil and friendly environment it's always been.
I'm not blaming anyone for reacting negatively. Disagreeing with other people's views is entirely valid. But it should be possible to have a difference of opinion without getting snippy about it.
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For our hobby to grow and prosper, we need to make it easy for new people to start.
To support my new book about painting WW2 Germans, I started a Facebook Group. This now has 874 members.
Facebook gives you a lot of statistics about the Age, Location and Gender of the group members. The average age of my Facebook group is about 50. 70% are from English speaking countries and 99% are men.
Only 15% are under 35. I suspect that the younger ones are focussed on Games Workshop rather historical wargames. I think it is very important to get younger people to join our hobby. Therefore easy access is essential and desirable.
I suspect your book is exactly the kind of thing that will make the hobby easier for some people and I wish there had been something like that, a one stop resource back when I was first trying to figure out how to paint my WW2 Germans in the mid 90's. It was prior to the internet and the average bookshop didn't have much if any specialist military history books so it was case of blindly ordering books from catalogues in the hope they'd contain the information I needed. Occasionally I'd strike gold but many times I ended up buying something that just didn't give me what I needed. Yeah, I read a fair bit and acquired a bit more knowledge because of it but my figures still sat far longer unpainted than I really wanted. It didn't really help with my gaming hobby.
I think historics have a bit of an old fashioned, fuddy duddy image still that likely puts off younger gamers as well as the other excluding factors but some companies have done a lot in recent years to try and make it more accessible and more appealing. Of course that also comes with criticisms from 'proper' wargamers of dumbing down or 40K'ing of historics but I think it's more of a good thing than not.
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Historics will always be a battle of sorts. I was about to launch into an ACW project when the fascists in America brought that all into furor again. After that I couldn't stomache it.
I also stay clear of modern/ultra modern for similar reasons. I find it a bit disrespectufl to be gaming stuff in a theatre of war people are still fighting and dying in, including civilians.
I tend to like my hisorical periods mixed with fantastical elements. I play Saga for the sagas and myths of the dark ages. Same with ancients. When I play WW2 it's with a weird war alternate universe with a mash up of Marvel's hydra for example.
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I think historics have a bit of an old fashioned, fuddy duddy image still that likely puts off younger gamers as well as the other excluding factors but some companies have done a lot in recent years to try and make it more accessible and more appealing. Of course that also comes with criticisms from 'proper' wargamers of dumbing down or 40K'ing of historics but I think it's more of a good thing than not.
I think that you're heading more into "Is wargaming being dumbed down?" territory here. Sure, not everyone wants to spend weeks and months researching their 'army', or tactics, or anything like that, but we are seeing a divergence between 'real' history and 'pseudo' history, as peddled by some of the big fish in our small pool.
I like the 'new' simplified/abstracted rule sets, especially if there is an 'art' to be developed as you learn 'the game'. I don't like the numerous "line 'em up and may the biggest dice pool win", or the "a rule for everything" sets, that largely prevent any form of tactics being of use, unless concentrated fire and taking cover are the be-all and end-all of a wargame.
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I think that you're heading more into "Is wargaming being dumbed down?" territory here. Sure, not everyone wants to spend weeks and months researching their 'army', or tactics, or anything like that, but we are seeing a divergence between 'real' history and 'pseudo' history, as peddled by some of the big fish in our small pool.
I like the 'new' simplified/abstracted rule sets, especially if there is an 'art' to be developed as you learn 'the game'. I don't like the numerous "line 'em up and may the biggest dice pool win", or the "a rule for everything" sets, that largely prevent any form of tactics being of use, unless concentrated fire and taking cover are the be-all and end-all of a wargame.
I'd still say it's a good thing if it engages historics with younger gamers or newcomers. For some of them it might develop into a wider interest in the period and maybe they try other rule sets and wot-not. It's a starting point for that broad genre of gaming. And even if people do stick with the Warhammer World War K flavour of games then at least they're hopefully having fun with it. I suppose it depends what you want out of a rule set and the type of gaming experience you're after. It seems there's everything on offer from fast and loose heroic combat to pretty much mil sim games. Also what type of game might be desired. If people want to recreate a specific battle that can be a lot of work and involve a lot of preparation, others might just want to throw down their Afrika Korps on a Thursday evening for a couple of quick games. It's all good but there's still that hint of 'you're not doing it properly'.
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Was wargaming or indeed any hobby ever supposed to be hard?
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I'm getting to a point where I value fun and the creation of an exciting tale of adventure (this is Lead Adventure, right?) much, much more than historical accuracy. I'm not here in pursuit of academic laurels, I'm here to have fun. It's my hobby, not my job.
I have been accused of being a button-counter in the past, and I confess that tendency does lurk within me. However, when talking about rules, I happen to like a certain level of accuracy, but not at the expense of fun. In my colonial gaming I am increasingly leaning towards wanting to recreate the atmosphere of the tales of Rider Haggard rather than a blow-by-blow, scientifically-designed re-enactment of the relief of Ladysmith. But if you want to do that then bloody good on you, and I'll cheer you on when you post pictures of it here on LAF.
I really think there is room for everybody, and there's no need to think in terms of the hobby being "too" this or "too" that. It is whatever it is to you, you don't need to be worrying about what other people are up to.
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I am myself delighted that I can usually find (and afford) figures for anything I want to do these days, that information is so much more up-to-date if one applies a little "old wine in new bottles" caution, and that terrain standards are so much higher in so many ways. I write my own rules, with much input from friends, and have always preferred it that way.
From where I'm standing, the hobby's never been doing better.
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It's all good but there's still that hint of 'you're not doing it properly'.
I think there always will be, sad though it is for one person to deride someone else's enjoyment of their hobby. For me though the point is, whether you're a fastidious button counter (like I chose to be in relation to my own gaming), or indeed just want to throw down what you have in the box and play, we often use the same toys. The sum of people playing on both sides of the fence provide the impetus for manufacturers to release product for the benefit of all of us.
I'm certainly not going to sneer at those 'doing it wrong' for being instrumental in providing me with more toys to choose from. ;)
I'm getting to a point where I value fun and the creation of an exciting tale of adventure (this is Lead Adventure, right?) much, much more than historical accuracy. I'm not here in pursuit of academic laurels, I'm here to have fun. It's my hobby, not my job.
I really think there is room for everybody, and there's no need to think in terms of the hobby being "too" this or "too" that. It is whatever it is to you, you don't need to be worrying about what other people are up to.
I confess I've shifted into the hobby of 'button-counting' more so than gaming in recent years, there's something quite fascinating in researching the whats, whys and hows. I've tried to avoid just churning out info in the archetypal 'know it all' fashion, but instead I try to limit myself to offering solid info only when it's requested. The process of research is the fun part for me, but the habit of some to point out or mock the mistakes of 'lesser mortals' is quite boorish by my standards.
Despite the knowledge I've enjoyed gaining, when it comes down my actual gaming there is far more resemblance to Commando comics than war diaries and war establishments though; at least until 'Edinburgh Military Tattoo: The Wargame' is released anyway.
;)
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Lord Asbestos is right, I have taken a bit of a pounding on the forum this week! Some of it of my own making.
All I can say is that my original post was written honestly. Those are my own thoughts about where I am with the hobby right now. I just think that potentially something is being lost in the movement to making wargaming more convenient.
I expected people to disagree with me. I am happy for people to disagree with me. I'm not so keen for people to tell me my opinion is wrong, and understand that some may have taken offense if that is what they believed I was saying to them. Certainly not my intention.
After I wrote the post, I did 'throw it up on the web' to see what kind of response it would get. Actually, for the most part, I think it has prompted some really interesting discussions, here and elsewhere, that for the most part have remained civil. And that is the point of having a forum, isn't it?
This proved a poor decision on my part, as I quickly learned how easy it is for such a wide-ranging discussion over multiple channels to completely dominate my head-space. Thus I have abandoned the discussion everywhere else. I love LAF though, it has been my go-to forum for years, and I've met loads of wonderful wargamers here, and shared in some great discussions - even with people whose opinions are very different to my own.
Again, if anyone took offense to my post, I can only say sorry, it was unintentional. Like everyone else here, I am just trying to figure out how to get the most fun / satisfaction / enjoyment from my miniatures hobby.
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Can we rename this The Official Three Yorkshiremen Sketch Thread?
Wargaming? There were sixtenn of us huddled over a single toy soldier that we had carved out of coal in’t hole in middle of ground etc, etc, etc,..... and you try telling that to youth of today and they won’t believe you.
You know I remember forty years back as well. Airfix were doing wargaming guides. Bruce Quarrie had a range of rules. Ospreys were being published back then as were the Blandford uniform books. There was a fine magazine called Battle for Wargamers, later absorbed by Military Modelling. There were loads of clubs, relatively cheap plastic and kits figures by Airfix and Matchbox abounded. Minifigs had a bloody enormous range of 25mm stuff and then you had the books by the legends of the hobby like Featherstone and Gush, etc, etc. Even in the darkest, furthest removed wilds of the antipodes we had dedicated military history bookshops like Hylands (it still exists today).
Yeah it was a fucking nightmare back then. ::)
Now try telling that to the youth of today and they just might believe you.
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:?
I've sat on the fence feeling slightly bemused by the whole idea.
I don't understand the need for the ' In my day' reflections. Your not on your death bed ::)
The evolution and development of the hobby has been and still is driven by you. However innovative or dire a product is, It'll only thrive if gamers buy it.
Or the company fades away.
The truth is quite simple if you feel these naive and simplistic methodologies somehow enhanced your gaming experience. Then why haven't you returned to them?
For me personally gaming has and rightly so evolved into a facet of my life, not the focus.
The comes a time when you look across a gaming table at the pair of tits arguing over dice. And hits you'I'm dammed if their going to be the only one's I see close up on a Saturday night!'
The only physical limit is time . If you choose to complain about modern fantasy figures being of limited poses and figure specific units. Whilst stood over your napoleonic armies and choosing to ignore the fact that you'd be hard pressed to find eight different poses in each regiment represented with specific figures. Then hay ho. It's your time.
Looking back has to be honest . Sat in your bedroom with an old table lamp,enamel paints,thinners,and plastic cement. Wasn't better. The only thing it was better at was the chance of your evening passing in pretty colours and four sided triangles.
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Again, if anyone took offense to my post, I can only say sorry, it was unintentional. Like everyone else here, I am just trying to figure out how to get the most fun / satisfaction / enjoyment from my miniatures hobby.
Don't be sorry, Joe. If somebody took offense, that is his problem. We are living a time when it is too easy to feel offended. That is a path that worries me, at the same time that annoys me. I disagreed with your analysis, but both your opinion piece and your answers have been always polite. Your interventions have always been those of a true gentleman. Nothing to be sorry about.
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I think there was plenty in the original post to potentially disagree with, but I don't think we should give Joe a hard time! As he said, it's fuelled an interesting discussion, even if it does seem to be a bit one-sided : )
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I expected people to disagree with me. I am happy for people to disagree with me. I'm not so keen for people to tell me my opinion is wrong
The point I was trying to make. Disagree by all means. But if only people could catch themselves and do it in a non-confrontational way rather than being arseholes about it.
'I'm sorry but I don't agree with you and here's why...' is one thing. 'I'm sorry but you're totally wrong and must be an idiot' is something quite different.
Discourse on the internet consists of way too much of the latter and not enough of the former.
Well I guess it's easier to yell at people when you don't actually have to look them in the eye... You just fire off your bullets...
All I can say is that my original post was written honestly. Those are my own thoughts about where I am with the hobby right now. I just think that potentially something is being lost in the movement to making wargaming more convenient.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. We live in a golden age of figures, terrain, models, paint, books - everything you could ever possibly want. But the increasingly commercialised world of packaged wargaming systems has inevitably removed some of the creativity and originality which, for me anyway, was always part of the appeal. There's a huge amount to be said for all the lovely stuff we can get today, and I wouldn't say it's 'too easy' at all - people shouldn't have to work any harder at their hobby than they want to.
But I do think some of that freewheeling inventiveness has been lost along the way. To me, that's a bit of a shame. To most people, it's perfectly normal and they're very happy about it. As ever with these things, it's just a matter of personal taste: I want to make up rules and scenarios; you want to buy them off the shelf. As others have said above in this thread, there's no right or wrong way. It's a choice :)
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Interestingly a while back I was studying, as part of my psych course, how excessive choice (beyond basic needs) can be a bad thing. With too many options it leads to choice paralysis. Add to that the phenomenon that what we often want is simply something we don't have ... for the reason we don't have it! So having easy access to more can lead to a lack of satisfaction, because we do not need to strive for anything.
I managed to pick up one of those little Airfix modelling guides about the 8th Army and it has lots of suggestions for converting existing (at the time) Airfix models to make things like mine clearing engineers, Vickers MMGs, anti-tank rifles etc.. I could easily buy those options somewhere or other no doubt, but the thought of building my own gets me all excited.
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I managed to pick up one of those little Airfix modelling guides about the 8th Army and it has lots of suggestions for converting existing (at the time) Airfix models to make things like mine clearing engineers, Vickers MMGs, anti-tank rifles etc.. I could easily buy those options somewhere or other no doubt, but the thought of building my own gets me all excited.
Yep. That's what I'm talking about lol
I guess depending on how you're wired, making something is just more exciting than buying something.
I'm terrible at traditional manly pursuits: DIY and car maintenance - I'd always rather pay someone to do it. My friends don't understand me.
But I'm good at painting, modelling and making up wargames. I'd always rather do it myself than pay to take something off the shelf.
It just comes down to what you're good at, what you've got time for, and what floats your boat!
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But I'm good at painting, modelling and making up wargames. I'd always rather do it myself than pay to take something off the shelf.
It just comes down to what you're good at, what you've got time for, and what floats your boat!
Same. Gaming is something I haven't done in ... hell, more than 25 years now ... but I use the threat of gaming to paint my little toys. I will have an idea in my head that I'm building a force for Saga or Lion Rampant or whatever and that's my excuse for collecting.
Now I completely understand that for someone who just loves to game, the chore of painting might simply be a necessary evil to getting their force on the table.
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I've come to detest painting, I find it a soul-crushingly difficult enterprise that rarely delivers a result that makes it feel it was worth the effort. But I can't bring myself to use a painting service or buy painted figures from eBay.
So I guess I'm stuck with it. I guess that's why I hardly ever do it these days. Wish I could find a way to make it "too easy." It ain't too bloody easy for me, I can tell you. lol
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You gave painting a shot, and it wasn't for you. Nothing wrong with that. We are all going to have our favourite and least favourite parts of the hobby. There are still plenty of ways to find depth and creativity in wargaming.
If you are into fantasy - have a look at some of the D&D pre-paints, some of them are quite good.
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I've come to detest painting, I find it a soul-crushingly difficult enterprise that rarely delivers a result that makes it feel it was worth the effort. But I can't bring myself to use a painting service or buy painted figures from eBay.
So I guess I'm stuck with it. I guess that's why I hardly ever do it these days. Wish I could find a way to make it "too easy." It ain't too bloody easy for me, I can tell you. lol
The strange thing is, you’re a bloody good painter.
I think we might all be a bit strange you know :D
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The strange thing is, you’re a bloody good painter.
He definitely is! I still believe that Plynkes is just having some bad painting time, and that one day he will wake up and start to paint as though nothing had happened :D
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Yeah, but being good at something isn't always the same as enjoying it, more's the pity.
Anyway, enough moaning. My post served its purpose: I managed to get complimented on my painting twice without having to lift a brush once. Result! ;)
(I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)
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So, what I am about to say is going to be possibly a tad critical of both sides of the argument - without any intention of being offensive.
So I am trying to look at the bigger picture and see what is going on as a whole. It might be that some people have seen the frostgrave criticism thread and seen the blog post as a sort of thinly veiled retort. Now, I don't want to go into that here because it has been said elsewhere and that's fine.
But I think there is a gem of a question in there which shouldn't be an argument about wright or wrong.
I was listening to a program on the radio yesterday that was talking about physical education and how the British education system was falling short of what it should be delivering in this regard. One of the main criticisms was that most PE teachers only view Physical Education as being competitive sports.
Now, taking this analogy, you can see why schools do. Competitive sports are a relatively easy way of promoting your school. Tournaments come with a level of promotion and marketing and if you win, perhaps a piece in the local newspaper etc. And again, even if you don't win, but finish relatively high up, it can be something you show to prospective students etc.
I think wargaming is no different. I think some people see it as only being a competitive sport. Some people see it as being purely for fun. The two shouldn't be exclusive of one another.
But, I think they are, and can be exclusive of one another. And that is where the biggest issue of this hobby occur.
Why do we judge our own painting level? How do we judge it? What is important to us in our games? That we are good at games? Or that we enjoy them?
There are many famous athletes out there who have spoken and written about their sport and admitting to not liking it. Agassi is a good one. Having been forced to play tennis from a kid he only really discovered his love for it when he was allowed space to choose and away from the sport.
Sometimes we go through troughs in our hobby, and I think they can be good. We all use hobbies for different reasons, I play football for the competitive edge, team aspect and exercise (not that I am particularly fit).
What I now subscribe to as being called 'tabletop' gaming - offers me other things. Some have said already, relaxation around building and painting miniatures and models, socialising / fun with friends who have a shared interest and an avenue in which to explore the world and meet new people, travel to new places.
This part of my hobby was discovered after years of gaming hiatus. And remarkably, online at the Frothers forum. I attended shows again. I found to enjoy them as someone putting on participation games.
Now at random platypus we have taken that on a step or two. This Salute we will see people from all over the world converging on our tables.
For me, that is what gaming should be, no matter the aspects of it that you like or dislike. It should be about bringing people together, in real life, or on the interwebs, to enjoy and share in the hobby. To be as inclusive as is humanly possible - which isn't always easy but IMHO should always be a priority. Otherwise what is the point?
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Yeah, but being good at something isn't always the same as enjoying it, more's the pity.
Anyway, enough moaning. My post served its purpose: I managed to get complimented on my painting twice without having to lift a brush once. Result! ;)
(I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)
I've been there before. I took a break and thought about what it was I wasn't enjoying. It'll be different for all of us.
For me I came up with this;
- Was I painting for myself or to try and paint as good as someone else?
- What am I painting - is what I am doing a problem?
From that I ascertained that I was painting to try and impress, rather than enjoying the process. I realised I didn't want my miniatures to be judges, and identified why I had deep seated dislike of things like CMON and their rate you paint job approach. I didn't want to paint like that anymore. I wanted to paint for fun.
I also found that I didn't like painting more than say 6-8 of the same style of miniature in a batch. And that if I had 20-30 miniatures down in front of me to be painted, I would just avoid them. So I make a point of clearing my desk on a regular basis and that the mini's I want to paint are 6-8 in number and the main focus of my desk at that time.
Since then I have found I have gotten a lot more enjoyment out of it. I also, and this is relatively strange considering the old me, don't particularly care if someone thinks my model is a 9/10 or a 2/10 paint wise.
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My thoughts: https://therenaissancetroll.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/is-wargaming-getting-too-easy.html
The funny thing is that your blog didn't hit me at all as a complaint that wargaming is getting too easy and wargamers are getting to addicted to that Convenient Fix.
It actually came across as a rather beautiful plea to stay aware of the things we love most about our hobby and not abandon those only because there are easier (but less pleasant) ways to do things.
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But there's absolutely no need to cross a line into unpleasant personal sniping, snide comments, and generalisations along the lines of 'Because these people disagree with my view, they must be idiots or wankers'.
It's the angry, hate-filled culture of way too much online discourse, including some other wargaming sites. But we've always worked hard to keep this forum a friendly, courteous, generally constructive place. Which is the way most members seem to like and want it.
Hear Hear!
I've been in the painting and war gaming hobby since the 70's... so I think "back in the day" is more or less the same as Joe's.
But there have been some profound changes in our way of life in the last 50 years:
1) Much more free time to read and paint. I'd get home from work and either turn on the TV or put some albums on and would have hours to paint and research. Today, there are computers, smartphones, social media... FORUMS! No forums in my day. The competition for people's free time is far more intense today than "in my day."
2) Lower standard table top quality. When I first started gaming the emphasis was on gaming and big battalion type gaming. My group mostly did 15mm and nobody bothered to shade and highlight their minis. They didn't make bases which competed with the minis for attention. What we did do was produce lots of minis. We didn't play on a table top, we played on a ping pong table, and we could fill that table from one end to the other with Napoleonic battalions in column formation. That is literally thousands of minis. Hell, I had 2 Corps worth of ACW miniatures (1 yankee and 1 rebel) that I could bring to our meetings and we would have 8 guys playing 4v4. One would apply what we refer to as a base coat and that was good! Generals, we would try to put a little more work on, but the acceptable standard of minis for table top gaming was far lower "in my day."
3) No need for gaming aids. Because we played every weekend, everyone knew the rules inside and out. Yep, we always had a copy of the casualty charts to check out, but everybody knew what was the movement distances, etc, and if your regiment took a casualty and had to make a morale check, no one looked at the morale chart. I would grab the dice and someone from across the table would say out load "charged and unsupported... you need a 10 or better, bud." We played a lot and had the time at home to know the rules by heart "in my day."
I could go on and on, but in general "in my day" life was simpler and we had more time to devote to the hobby. Folks weren't fused with painting quality to the point you see today and terrain was nice, but not required.
Given the demands we see put on folks today concerning gaming boards and painting quality coupled with, at least in my case, 75% less free time to spend on the hobby, it is no wonder that folks seek out pre-painted minis and terrain, easy to follow rules systems, painting tutorials, painting systems, gaming aids, etc.
TIME is the big difference. So, if things are more easy, if things are less complicated or games provide aids, etc., it is not a real reflection of folks interests or desires, but a simple recognition that folks just don't have the time they had or the expectations folks have that are so much different than when I first started back "in my day."
Cheers!
P.S.: That's right ... on and off ... for 50 years.
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Out of interest (or not!), I have just come across an older post on my blog that was based upon a nostalgic look back at teenage years, with a game that has stayed in my mind for decades for no particular reason that I can think of now, but some of my observations there do resonate with this discussion.
The below link is for anyone with time to spare for such a diversion :-)
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/remembering-old-wargame.html
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The funny thing is that your blog didn't hit me at all as a complaint that wargaming is getting too easy and wargamers are getting to addicted to that Convenient Fix.
It actually came across as a rather beautiful plea to stay aware of the things we love most about our hobby and not abandon those only because there are easier (but less pleasant) ways to do things.
Thanks Pijile, I appreciate that.
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people shouldn't have to work any harder at their hobby than they want to.
I find it hard to disagree with this Richard, it’s a broad church, with room even for plastic gnomes and fairies after all.
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The below link is for anyone with time to spare for such a diversion :-)
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/remembering-old-wargame.html
Great post Norm. Thanks
:D
I remember playing the Leicester rules (or at least our interpretation of them).
(https://resources.nobleknight.com/Catalog/Images/240/240/0/1/0/leicesmicrotankwarfare5th.jpg)
Although this is the later version.
Picked them up with an order of the tanks and vehicles from Bill Brewers shop in '69 or '70. Hand written letter and postal order from an advert in Military Modelling magazine.
I still have and use a couple of those tanks now. 2 Wespes: Cast in real lead, sewing pins for barrels, brass tube indentations for wheels and the crew compartment cast solid.
Dreadful things, but under a coat of paint and a plentiful mush of glue and flock they never fail to give good service alongside their modern compatriots.
IIRC we stopped using the Leicester rules when TTG's "Firefly" came out, they were even more mind numbingly complex but at the time were absolutely the best rules ever.
I am sure that in gaming same as everything else "what goes around comes around". More complex simulation style games will be back, even if they will have to be packaged like the mass market glossies and use technology to replace the manual calculations and detail analysis of before.
As an example, the Kriegsmarine "UBoot" game on Kickstarter may be the way things are going.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/phalanxgames/uboot-the-board-game (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/phalanxgames/uboot-the-board-game)
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Just this week I got to suggest - and it may be taken up - a Uni evening class on wargaming, and this thread, as well as the blog post which started it and the links above might fill up a whole two hour lecture :D
My take on this is that it's always as easy or difficult as you make it; if it's accessibility that's the issue, then yes, it is, I guess - it still rankles that an order of little 6mm scale tanks I made some 37 years ago or so by mail never appeared. I only got into wargaming once local shops started getting wargaming products (Games Workshop, Ral Partha, Chainmail). Then came the internet, which opened up a whole new world; and then PayPal, which made buying easier, which might not be 100% a positive development :? :D
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I find it hard to disagree with this Richard, it’s a broad church, with room even for plastic gnomes and fairies after all.
lol
Touche
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I find it hard to disagree with this Richard, it’s a broad church, with room even for plastic gnomes and fairies after all.
THAT IS BRILLIANT! We totally need a boxed set of plastic gnomes for fantasy massed battles! And plastic fairies - with unicorn cavalry! ;)
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THAT IS BRILLIANT! We totally need a boxed set of plastic gnomes for fantasy massed battles! And plastic fairies - with unicorn cavalry! ;)
I would love to see some proper blue and red, bearded gnomes in super high quality!
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I would love to see some proper blue and red, bearded gnomes in super high quality!
Ah, well now ...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1328919671/creatures-underground-gnomes/