Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Mark on 13 March 2018, 09:13:31 PM
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Hi all,
My Google-fu is failing me... does anyone happen to have sources for some coats of arms? Specifically at the moment I am looking for:
Robert, 4th baron Poynings 1382-1446
Sir John Grey - died 1439
Jean (or Jehan) de Waurin (or Wavrin) 1398-1474
Thanks in advance for any assistance... I may be after some French ones later!
Cheers,
Mark
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Sir John Grey (d. 1439)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Coat_of_Arms_of_Sir_John_Grey%2C_KG.png)
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For Poynings the closest I could find was his grandson's, who inherited the title. It's possible the coat of arms was unchanged. The 1st and 4th quarter arms (green and yellow stripes) seem to be the Poynings arms nowadays too. The question then would be, what are the other arms in the 2nd and 3rd quarters (blue fleur de lys) and when were they adopted?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Coat_of_arms_of_Sir_Edward_Poynings%2C_KG.png)
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For Jean de Waurin all I could find was that he was a Burgundian chronicler, but couldn't find any coat of arms images.
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Thanks Cubs.
I did find the later Poynings arms. With a bit more digging the Poynings green and yellow stripes appear as the second and fourth quarters of the arms of Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (1449-1489), as he was the son of Eleanor Poynings. I am not a heraldry expert, but this may mean the blue fleur de lys are the arms of our later Poynings' mother.
I may stick with the green and yellow stripes for Lord Poynings - if nothing else, they are easier to paint!
I do find it strange that Waurin's coat of arms is so elusive. Having had a long and illustrious military and diplomatic career for Burgundy, as well as leaving a complete chronicle, you would have thought they would be an easier find...
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Jean de Waurin was an illegitimate son of Robert de Waurin, Lord de Waurin. So presumably he used his arms with a barre sinister; until he was legitimised perhaps at least. He had brothers however, so some form of label would be added.
The simple Waurin family blazon is here: http://dechav.free.fr/armorial/blason.php?id=Wavrin
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Aha! A family tree website appears to be my friend...
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Poynings-6
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Or here: https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Robert-Poynings-5th-Baron-Poynings/6000000003649771147
I'm a bit dubious about his arms being so simply 'Poynings', his mother was a Grey (daughter of Lord Fitzpayne, son of Lord Grey of Codnor) and such were the times that displaying the arms of in-laws and even grandparents on occasion was in-keeping with outward displays of family pedigree.
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Thanks Arlequin. I think I will stick with just Poynings - I love a bit of basic heraldry as my talent is up to reproducing it on a 28mm figure. I will give myself enough grief with Grey! None of these will be "commander" figures (I have Bedford, Salisbury, Willoughby and L'Isle Adam for the Anglo-Burgundians) but I am trying to get heraldry for lords and knights present at Cravant or Verneuil (ideally both) for the remaining surcoat bodies I have to add to the "realism" factor. Richard Wadge's "Verneuil 1424" has a useful appendix listing those individuals listed as fighting at either of both of the battles which has been my basis.
I am sure I will be back asking about French coats of arms soon... there are a lot more surcoats on that sprue!
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Your figures, your choice at the end of the day. There is nothing to say that he didn't just use the family arms either, but I wouldn't have felt right not mentioning something I thought felt odd all the same.
Interesting project though regardless, so by all means ask again if you're stuck. :)
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No worries, much appreciated. I will share some photos soon - I have the best part of three boxes of Perry plastics complete bar the basing but received my sabot bases from Warbases this week so will get basing soon so they are in a presentable state!
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Hi All,
Other than the "Companions of Joan of Arc" site, does anyone know of a good (preferably online) resource for French coats of arms from the 1420s?
I am especially interested in lower ranking knights etc as I have been fairly successful in sourcing them for commanders.
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According to this book (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UGcWEc8-KewC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=jean+de+wavrin+%22seigneur+de+forestel%22&source=bl&ots=hMECma1Rht&sig=nyPQ1mFlBgFqUj5NrW0OLUxF_3k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKueil3_raAhUCfMAKHRknCv8Q6AEISTAI#v=onepage&q=jean%20de%20wavrin%20%22seigneur%20de%20forestel%22&f=false), Jehan de Wavrin bore the Wavrin arms as identified by Arlequin, with a red bendlet overall:
... les armes de Jean de Wavrin, seigneur de Forestel, personnage proche du milieu ducal bourguignon. Ces armes sont "d'azur a un écusson d'argent, brisé d'un baton de gueules, brochant sur le tout"
Note that the baton/bendlet is not said to be sinister, but de Wavrin was legitimized dby the Duke of Burgundy in the 1430s, which might make a difference.
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I find this rather helpful.
wappenwiki.org/index.php/Regions_of_Europe (http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Regions_of_Europe)