Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => The Lead Painters' League => LPL Archiv => Topic started by: dijit on 16 June 2009, 08:21:28 AM
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Looking at the way the votes get cast, it often seems to me that there's a little prejudice against Gw models, especially when the contest is tight it seems to be the thing that swings the votes. Has anyone else noticed it, or am I just plain wrong?
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I think there is prejudice towards subject matter that people favour. Usually this isn't a GW game or product. I personally prefer post-apoc models over historical models, for example 8)
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You are right in my case. With the exception of LotR I do not like the way GW stuff look. The aesthetics of the thing, so to speak. So it is a factor I consider among others.
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I think its more the subject matter or genre, rather than the manufacturer thats reflected in the voting generally. If the painting is pretty evenly matched, personally I would tend to let my personal interest bias swing the vote one way or the other, but only if theres no other reason to vote one way or another.
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I try to look at the quality of the painting and the quality & context the figures are photographed in. Then suject matter can sway me if everything else is close. I don't think I am prejudice against GW. Although I have found very few of there products to my liking.
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Not liking something isn't the same as prejudice. If I can't choose between two entries because the painting is equally good, then I'm afraid I'm going to vote for the one which has the subject matter that appeals more. And for me that is rarely going to be something that has come out of Games Workshop.
Personally it has been seeming to me that it's historical that loses out to all that Sci-Fi and Fantasy tosh in the close contests. The LAF seems to be full of people into all that stuff to me these days. I'm seeing the exact opposite to you. But really I think we're getting a bit paranoid here and seeing trends that aren't actually there.
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Not liking something isn't the same as prejudice. If I can't choose between two entries because the painting is equally good, then I'm afraid I'm going to vote for the one which has the subject matter that appeals more. And for me that is rarely going to be something that has come out of Games Workshop.
Personally it has been seeming to me that it's historical that loses out to all that Sci-Fi and Fantasy tosh in the close contests. The LAF seems to be full of people into all that stuff to me these days. I'm seeing the exact opposite to you. But really I think we're getting a bit paranoid here and seeing trends that aren't actually there.
I agree with you there, it is different, I may not like a figure but that does not necessarily mean I am against all of the ranges the company makes. If its painted well and captures my imagination I'll vote for that.
The post apocalyptic theme is starting to get on my nerves a little now but that is probably my age or just me, I used to be totally in to Fanatasy and SF and post disaster stuff, and now it seems to be more 19th century to early 20th century historical and VSF stuff. So historical with a bit of a twist.
I think to say there is a predjudice is a bit far fetched .
dodge
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I don't think it's GW, as old GW fantasy metal seems to get good votes, but 40K and especially Space Marines do get a malus.
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I sometimes feel prejudiced against GW products , not sure why .
:?
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Personally I believe that GW has some very good painters on its staff and in the golden demon competitions. When ever you see GW stuff for sale in a shop or in a magazine it is always extremely well painted. I think this makes it very hard for us average painters to get a good reaction when we enter a GW team, people have always seen better before.
With some of the other Historical, pulp, VSF etc … entries they are not as well advertised as GW. So the level of the paint jobs stands on its own merit.
When you go to GW website ALL of the figures are beautifully painted. At other companies websites sometimes you are lucky even to see an unpainted figure, never mind a well painted one.
You must admit that even if you don’t like GW figure their advertising is top notch. One of the benefits of being one of the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Personally I don’t think I am prejudice against any particular figures or scale and I am loving the whole LPL. Where else gives you a reason to look forward to Monday morning? I love to see every bodies ideas with all the different types of figures. It also lets me see loads of eye candy that I must have.
PS I am a GW fan and have loads of their stuff but this forum is very quickly turned me to loads of different types of figures and games.
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Personally it has been seeming to me that it's historical that loses out to all that Sci-Fi and Fantasy tosh in the close contests. The LAF seems to be full of people into all that stuff to me these days. I'm seeing the exact opposite to you.
Hear Hear!
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I would probably be biased to the "other" if there was a competition between a GW figure and another manufacturer, not because I don't like GWs products (I do), I just don't like the big company image and the "official" status that they have imposed - its almost as if they believe that their customers have no imagination of their own and have to be told what to do...
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Personally it has been seeming to me that it's historical that loses out to all that Sci-Fi and Fantasy tosh in the close contests. The LAF seems to be full of people into all that stuff to me these days. I'm seeing the exact opposite to you.
Hear Hear!
Hear Hear Hear Hear
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................PS I am a GW fan and have loads of their stuff but this forum is very quickly turned me to loads of different types of figures and games.
That's what happened to me, GW always then oh theres other stuff great, this forum has helped shape my thinking as a gamer.
Actually don't tell anyone but I've got GW Empire swordsmen and halberdiers to paint, and actually I'm quite enjoying it ???
dodge
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................PS I am a GW fan and have loads of their stuff but this forum is very quickly turned me to loads of different types of figures and games.
That's what happened to me, GW always then oh theres other stuff great, this forum has helped shape my thinking as a gamer.
Actually don't tell anyone but I've got GW Empire swordsmen and halberdiers to paint, and actually I'm quite enjoying it ???
dodge
The same as I don't mention that my biggest ongoing project is a scratch built Chaos Baneblade???
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well painted Space Marines are two-a-penny, so it's no wonder people may not vote for them.
I never vote for GW not matter how good the paintjob.
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gw has really nice stuff (just some of them), but the point I think it's another:
when choosing the minis to vote, I use some criteria: the painting job, the Idea, and the originality of the miniatures... using GW stuff seems a bit boring... I've seen them hundreds of times yet, and I'm not really stimulated on seeing them, even if the painting job is good... :P
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Personally I believe that GW has some very good painters on its staff and in the golden demon competitions. When ever you see GW stuff for sale in a shop or in a magazine it is always extremely well painted. I think this makes it very hard for us average painters to get a good reaction when we enter a GW team, people have always seen better before.
I disagree for nowadays GW. The paintjobs Gw does nowadays are a lot less than they used to be. Sure they're better than most people can do, but I expect better from the biggest company in the miniatures business.
When it gets down to voting I don't care at all what the subject is. I personally don't care at all for pure historical miniatures...it's not my thing at all. Pulp, Cthulhu and other weird things are nice, but pure historical games bore me enormously. That said, I have voted many times for historical settings. It's a painting league after all. If the painter presents a terrific story, good paintjobs, good photos he deserves my vote. I have voted for entries I found personally boring in terms of miniatures and setting but the paintjobs were fantastic. Same goes for GW. If someone paints GW miniatures very well, then he deserves my vote. In the current round, Mancha's Space Wolves and Pil's Aliens are excellent examples (okay, Pil lost my vote...but those Jedi kids are brilliant ;)).
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I'm not specifically in favour of or against GW models, I just like miniatures and collect everything that I can get my paws on.
However, as far is the voting is concerned. It's not only the quality of the original GW paintjobs that makes it difficult to make your models look good, it is also difficullt to get a original paintjob. Seeing a model with a similar paint job over and over again, kinda kills your enthausiasme when you see it again, while the models you haven't seen (painted) before have a larger impact.
A well, I have voted on some 40k entries. And off course entered quite some 40k entries, knowing very well they would have less of a chance versus pulp. Then again, they do have a (good) chance against historical models
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I think it depends on the subject matter to be honest. I have noticed a lot more GW figures in this season fo the LPL than ever before.
I am not prejudiced and there were some very nice Eldar in this weeks competition which caught my eye.
However with it being a LAF competition I am sure I am not alone when looking at the subject matter e.g. some nice pulp gangsters vs GW 40K stuff would in most instances have the edge for me, however I would also look at the composition, painting skills and so on.
What I would say is that there are a lot of very well painted GW stuff on the web/magazines etc so the bar is set high before anyone starts and this could cloud expectations for some
I dont think it is prejudice as I would also assume with the forum "history" and member profile/interests you would be up against it if you chose not to enter with 28mm+ scale figures, so those chaps would need to pull off a spectacular diorama or as with the Samurai stun us with painting skill and the spectacle of massed troops
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The GW entries did fine in Round 8 so far as I can tell.
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I prefer historical or pseudo-historical over "pure fantasy" so it might be why I generally vote "against" GW stuff…
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I prefer historical or pseudo-historical over "pure fantasy" so it might be why I generally vote "against" GW stuff…
There is something nice in twisting historical conflicts, and making up your own stuff :D
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I prefer historical or pseudo-historical over "pure fantasy" so it might be why I generally vote "against" GW stuff…
There is something nice in twisting historical conflicts, and making up your own stuff :D
Especially if you have a very broad range of what "pseudo-historical" is … I happily put Pulp, Weird World War II and VSF (an others) in this category. lol
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You're right.
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I was a little worried about most of my entries being G.W. figures...that said, I'm doing O.K. points wise and people seem to like them. Also, I will use most of them for personal gaming as some of them are brilliant models. I'm not a huge fan of the multi-tentacled corporate beast that G.W. has become but in the past (and occasionally nowadays...) it has excreeted some cool-ass models. In the end, I myself will vote for any entry that tickles my fancy, for whatever reason...and so should all o' you all.
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While GW has a lot of really cool figures, and I personally like quite a lot of them, I see GW everywhere I go that's gaming-related. I really like LAF because it shows me lots of small-name yet equally or more cool figures - that's why I come here.
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I personnally prefer independant manufacturers (Pulp Figures, Copplestone, Hasslefree, Heresy etc.) to GW but a fact of life for me is that the lead mountain contains many GW figs. This is most likely because when the mountain was but a hill, GW was one of the only manufacturers available to me. Since exposure to different product lines in the LPL and other influences, I now find I prefer many other lines to GW. For example, until the LPL, I was not a fan of historical minis at all; I have seen many entries from some extremely talented folks here that have won me over. I may try to enter some in Season 4 if the stars are right...
I tried to limit my 10 LPL entries for Season 3 to a MAX of 3 GW entries (Weeks 1, 5 and 8 were GW figs and from 3 different lines within the GW quagmire - WH, WH40K and Mordheim). Two of these seemed to do okay, but one sure got pasted. For me, its painting first, story/theme a close second, photo quality third and model line last.
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I´ll risk sounding like a broken bell by chiming in with the others in that I consider GW not as innovative as they used to be.
On the "physical/model side", it is hard to create something truly evocative and new with GW figures since one has seen them so often in so many variations, whereas the "offbeat" miniatures are in many cases more interesting. As well as that, I always like seeing people recreate background stuff not served pre-packaged (not that I dislike the GW fluff, in fact, they were quite ingenious and assiduous in creating "worlds" some twenty years ago, but have been milking that cow ever since.
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Well I wasn't expecting such a huge response to this topic when I started it, but its certainly interesting reading. I personally look at the painting and basing and vote based on that. I have been surprised to note that since GW features so little on the boards that there have been as many GW entries as there are. I like the older GW stuff and their newer Inquisitation stuff, there's much more imagination in them and the modelmakers have much more freedom. I prefer not try to make my judgements not on the model, but on the painting.
But on a different note a great respect to those painters that churn out models week after week.
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Some of my best friends have worked for games workshop at one time or another, wouldn't want them marrying my daughter though ;)
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I think there is prejudice towards subject matter that people favour. Usually this isn't a GW game or product. I personally prefer post-apoc models over historical models, for example 8)
Likewise. Though I must admit I've a bit of prejudice towards Space Marines and Orks, bah! >:D . Though I still take the painting and scenery, and all those little doodads into account before voting. I'm not all evil after all.
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Sorry, I'm a bit late as usual, but when I vote I take into account: Painting standard, basing, originality, team "coherency", scenic background/photography and manufacturer or period, in that order. So if two teams, of equal standard in all other categories, feature Orks and Perry Sudan figures, the Perrys will win.
I don't know how others vote, but my method seems best to me - and I'm never wrong, of course lol ::)
GW's models are often very good, occasionally superb and sometimes dire, but I wouldn't vote against them because they are GW sculpts, just as I wouldn't vote for a bad Perry figure ( if I ever find one ;) ).
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GW's models are often very good, occasionally superb and sometimes dire, but I wouldn't vote against them because they are GW sculpts, just as I wouldn't vote for a bad Perry figure ( if I ever find one ;) ).
and what about the minis that the Perrys made for GW? ;D
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so you mean that a few people vote aganst GW only to look at the painting figures ?
that is possible, I think.
So why not make a GW bonus round in the next season ?
I am sure we all have a few GW figures in our lead pile and If I look at the age of the LAF members I am sure we see some figures they have been long forgotten.
Grimm
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A GW bonus round could be an interesting idea, I don't think there's a gamer out there who hasn't got some in the lead pile.
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I think the purpose of the bonus rounds was to get people to paint figures from a genre/period/etc. that they might not otherwise visit. There doesn't seem to be an shortage of GW material, thus a bonus round seems rather... uneccessary.
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I vote for or against based upon the overall presentation 40% (backround, lighting, etc,) 10% Humor, 20% painting skill, and 30% historical accuracy. I will vote for a historical figure over Sci-fi, though not over VSF. The humor I have to understand so some of the Sci-fi stuff I might not get. If the figure started life as a GW figure does not enter into the equation.
Personally some of my favorite figures of all time are the old GW fantasy figures (especially the Norsemen) and most of the newer (Metal or plastic) Bretonian and Empire figures. I am just not fond of chaos, the new ogres, dark elves or space marines. They are not likely to get my vote regardless of what is against them.
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I think a bonus tound based of figures of a single manufacturer is a bad idea because it might set the trend. Except for round ten the bonus rounds could be interpreted in a lot of settings (Germans, animal mounts) and I really like it that way. Saying: you can paint any figure as long as it's made by X is not the way to go IMO.
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I think a bonus tound based of figures of a single manufacturer is a bad idea because it might set the trend. Except for round ten the bonus rounds could be interpreted in a lot of settings (Germans, animal mounts) and I really like it that way. Saying: you can paint any figure as long as it's made by X is not the way to go IMO.
I've thought about this over the cross of yesterday, and I think you're right, it most likely wouldn't be good for the competition.
Reading all the different posts, I' rather surprised by some of things people say. There are a number of people that say the prefer some figures over others (period, historical/sci fi/fantasy/VSF) and will tend to vote for them over others. Is this in the case of a tiebreaker between two very good entries? Or as a first principle? I personally try and judge by painting alone, but made thats just me...
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I think a bonus tound based of figures of a single manufacturer is a bad idea because it might set the trend. Except for round ten the bonus rounds could be interpreted in a lot of settings (Germans, animal mounts) and I really like it that way. Saying: you can paint any figure as long as it's made by X is not the way to go IMO.
Hear, hear. Stick to theme.
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Reading all the different posts, I' rather surprised by some of things people say. There are a number of people that say the prefer some figures over others (period, historical/sci fi/fantasy/VSF) and will tend to vote for them over others. Is this in the case of a tiebreaker between two very good entries? Or as a first principle? I personally try and judge by painting alone, but made thats just me...
For me it's gut feeling, when both entries look good but one is better painted I may still go for the other one if the setting etc. is nice. When the painting on one of them is rather bad I won't vote for it. Preference can bridge a gap but that gap can only be so large. More often than not though there are two entries, both very nicely painted but in very different styles. In such instances one might technically be better (or take more effort) but that doesn't automatically mean it looks better too.
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GW's models are often very good, occasionally superb and sometimes dire, but I wouldn't vote against them because they are GW sculpts, just as I wouldn't vote for a bad Perry figure ( if I ever find one ;) ).
and what about the minis that the Perrys made for GW? ;D
lol Very good point! In that case, Perry Lord Of The Rings would beat Warhammer, which would beat 40K.
Either way, figure choosing the manufacturer/sculptor would be a last resort if everything else was perfectly equal, which is extremely unlikely ;)
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I personally try and judge by painting alone, but maybe that's just me...
And me :)
And I don't actually care who has made the figures.
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I personally try and judge by painting alone, but maybe that's just me...
And me :)
And I don't actually care who has made the figures.
Neither do I as long as they are brought up Catholic. :)
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I personally try and judge by painting alone, but maybe that's just me...
And me :)
And I don't actually care who has made the figures.
Neither do I as long as they are brought up Catholic. :)
Should be difficult with GW, although they have Inquisitors... ;)
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I personally try and judge by painting alone, but maybe that's just me...
And me :)
And I don't actually care who has made the figures.
Neither do I as long as they are brought up Catholic. :)
I brought up a Catholic once, nasty mess it made too. Never ate another one after that!
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I go for painting first, and that is mainly based on personal preference in style, so not very objective - but I count on statistics to dilute my vote and while ocasionally I find with some surprise that the one I voted for and found to be "better" is trailing by an hefty percentage in the tally once the results appear (after voting).
If it looks to me like it's more or less the same painting quality, I go for my gut instinct. "Something" that makes me prefer one entry over the other. And that goes straight to personal preference in theme, composition, humour, etc.
I (as others) might be biased subconsciously against GW, hopefully not "just because it's GW", but because it's limited in theme (it's basically either WHFB or W40K) and a bit "too" familiar - in other words, my imagination will easily be captured by a Steam powered automaton wrecking havoc on a zombie horde and less so by a squad of marines.
But this thought process is the tie-breaker. The competition being clearly stated as a PAINTING competition, I go for technique first (albeit, as stated, based on personal preference), and all other factors second, and I have more than once voted on GW entries without flinching.
That being said, I think a mono-manufacturer round would go against the grain in the spirit of the competition, especially (but not only because) it will automatically limit the theme and therefore will be more "boring" to watch ;)
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In reference to my earlier post about space marines. It's just one of those common things where you're just too exposed to it and look for something different. Space marines are pudding paste really, it's not just a general distaste for GW products on my part. I sure have a fair number of things from their ranges. But the point is the less common is more intriguing because of the fresh difference invoked when I'm not having to see those non-beaky blue-butts, so they're a little more likely to not get my tiny vote.
As far as that GW-themed bonus round goes. I'd have to say no to that. Like others have said, it causes a trend. They make a wide variety of things and that would make match-ups for voting worse. Bretonians and Tau really aren't a good match for voting upon. Something more broad that involves the use of miniatures with a similar theme but of different companies is the sort of thing a bonus round should be. Like for example, 'Bonus Round X: cultists'. There's a fair number of different styles and manufacturers of those guys that the contestants could chose from.
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guess there is some prejudice involved
but it is also about the miniatures themselves
with the many different styles, not many are sculpted in an overall "roundabout" fashion
many, especially those from the middle period, sport a strange static frontality, and it's hard to tell a good story with such miniatures, no matter the paintjob
and since the theme is always important in the contest....
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I sometimes feel prejudiced against GW products , not sure why .
:?
I just remembered why I feel prejudiced :-[ its just that everytime I finish buying an Army a new ruleset/Codex comes out with new figures leaving me with the choice of finishing the painting or shelving the project.
One day I will finish my Old School Sisters Army , as I only have to do another 500 points to get them to 2000 . The pile of Valhalens will be painted as a Sci Fi army , but the rest I will eventually sell .