Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: HappyChappy439 on 20 October 2019, 12:27:17 PM
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Hi Everyone!
Normally the Italian Wars are a tiny bit futuristic for my usual late medieval focus, but lately, I've been won over by a lot of really impressive projects people have been doing, and the absolutely stellar sculpts Steel Fist miniatures do.
So partly as an excuse to get my greasy mitts on some of those Steel Fist minis, I figured, why not start a little project? before deciding on the army of Cesare Borgia (at various points), I figure his career as Duke of Romagna and Captain General of the Church, and later on his service in Navarra could give plenty of options to have a fairly diverse set of units on the field
So with that all said, here's my interpretation of Cesare Borgia, ol' Cheesy Ray himself! He's a slightly converted Steel Fist gendarme, and gotta say they're an absolute joy to paint!
(https://i.imgur.com/xzpfKtG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kLRas7q.jpg)
Let me know how he's turned out! I hope to have some more updates soon!
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Good job! Steel Fist make some lovely minis.
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That is a cracking looking paint job and a lovely figure. :)
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That’s a fabulous figure. Is the head a Perry metal with a beard added?
Looking forward to more!
Cheers
Simon
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That’s a fabulous figure. Is the head a Perry metal with a beard added?
Looking forward to more!
Cheers
Simon
Thanks! Yup, it's one of the Perry early-Tudor heads with a beard sculpted on! In retrospect I probably should've made it pointier and more goatee-ish mind you!
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Sorry for a second content post so soon but I hit a bit of a painting dilemma so thought I'd best ask for feedback before committing too far!
I've painted up a test miniature for one of the members of a block of Borgia halberdiers but I'm not 100% on the accuracy of the colour scheme:
(Edit: I seem to have made a mistake and gotten the red and yellow the wrong way round, whoops!)
(https://i.imgur.com/YCJo0RU.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yePRoIW.jpg)
I'm basing the idea off of the Papal Guard in The Mass at Bolsena, but with Borgia red/yellow livery, seeing as 1512 is *fairly* close to Cesare's time, but I've read elsewhere different sources that say that Cesare's halberdiers wore black velvet, and others that say his forces wore red/yellow (they do seem to agree that the word CESAR was embroidered on though, but I wasn't brave enough to attempt that on a test figure yet!).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Raffael_089.jpg)
Does anyone with more knowhow around the subject know what the most appropriate colour scheme would be?
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Very nice work on Cesare!
You could try finding the following article online:
Antonio Conti / Stemmi e divise di Cesare Borgia e Guidobaldo da Montefeltre
If memory serves, it should have a few helpful informations and illustrations (but article is in Italian...) Anyway, I'd say Your scheme used for the halberdier looks convincing.
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Is that a conversion? :o
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Is that a conversion? :o
Yup, sorta! The Halberdier is a Steel Fist Tudor dolly, with Perry arms (with green-stuffed sleeves), and a perry early Tudor head.
Very nice work on Cesare!
You could try finding the following article online:
Antonio Conti / Stemmi e divise di Cesare Borgia e Guidobaldo da Montefeltre
If memory serves, it should have a few helpful informations and illustrations (but article is in Italian...) Anyway, I'd say Your scheme used for the halberdier looks convincing.
Thanks so much for the suggestion here! I've had a look through the article and it's extremely helpful (and very thorough too!)
I don't speak any Italian so I've been frantically Google translating my way through it, and it seems that the general idea is that Cesare's usual colours were Red/Yellow (or Crimson/Gold), inspired by Louis XII and his marriage into the house of Albret. Though it looks like he definitely went through a phase of black clothes in 1500 and 1503 specifically (with either silver or gold lettering embroidered on it).
Worst case scenario, in a pinch I can say the red/yellow halberdiers are French soldiers in service under Cesare!
And like you say there's a very helpful illustration of Louis XII (with an exceptionally triangular dog) on campaign. Which can be used to guess Cesare's own choice of Red/Yellow for his forces:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Alarmes_de_Mars_sur_le_voyage_de_Milan_-_Fr5089.jpg)
Thanks again! It's an interesting read!
(edit: I like that one guy in the block of pikemen/halberdiers who has his red/yellow the wrong way round and he's looking at the reader like he knows he got his outfit inside out)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/238081995375247362/635986939413004288/unknown.png)
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Wow, looks like your off to a great start. I really need to dig into the Italian wars some time. :D
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Hi again!
I've decided to expand a bit on ol' Cesare and give him a command base:
(https://i.imgur.com/SGJSd8k.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zBBVJUK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9UzCiWL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/y40Tpvp.jpg)
It's a little mix of manufacturers, Cesare himself is a Steel Fist Knight (with a Perry head), he's got a Perry priest to accompany him, and a TAG Papal Guard as a standard bearer!
Let me know how it's turned out!
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That is a fabulous looking command base. Great idea to use the sabot basing for greater flexibility.
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That is a fabulous looking command base. Great idea to use the sabot basing for greater flexibility.
Thanks! The sabot base is a bit improvised, Where I took a regular MDF base, and green stuff'd some 'slots' on it, glad it's turned out ok! I'll probably do something similar for other command/artillery bases in future
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Hi again!
I've been working on my Borgias a bit more! I picked up some of the new Steel Fist late-medieval mounted knights, to use as some rear-rank men at arms to support Cesare's fancier, more modern gendarmes that I've got on the workbench. Plan is to use them to represent either some 'direct' Papal cavalry, or some on loan from Louis XII during Cesare's campaigns in Romagna. They're lovely sculpts (I highly recommend them at least!, and I figured the mix of Iberian and Italian style helmets would make for a nice reference to the Borgia's Iberian origins.
(https://i.imgur.com/ae16Xpd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qqqSFVY.jpg)
And here's some photos of the individual men-at-arms
(https://i.imgur.com/NM3oN6b.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/F5c2yQP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dm61Jde.jpg)
Let me know how they've turned out!
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Fantastic! These are the first examples of these new sculpts I've seen painted. They've turned out great! I'm looking forward to painting mine...
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Just seen this thread and am very impressed. Old "Cheesy Ray" looks just the right mix of hungover and pissed off with someone.
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Hi again! I've been working on trying to paint a block of infantry up for the Borgias following on from my test halberdier a few months ago. The inspiration for the designs is largely taken from the excellent conversions at the Stuart's Workbench blog: https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/05/assembling-tudor-figures.html
Sculpting cloth, let alone big fancy sleeves isn't my strong suit, so this was a bit of a challenge! And I tried to set myself the additional challenge of relying on GW Contrast paints where possible (mostly out of curiosity!)
So with that in mind, I've set to making a block of 18 Borgia halberdiers, representing Cesare's own forces, under his banner as the Duke of Valentinois, I've decided to try something else with the photos as well, on the windswept, (highly creased) plains of central Italy!
(https://i.imgur.com/S9MpVJ4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qq6zyeV.jpg)
And here's a selection of a few individuals from the unit
(https://i.imgur.com/yB1sd8e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aqlxFUt.jpg)
Let me know how they've turned out! If they're a success I'm debating whether or not to add a few arquebusiers to support them and fill out the Borgia foot
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Good work on the sleeves. 8)
Do you have any pics of the putty process you use?
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Very impressive, I think your sculpting looks perfect.
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Excellent work on the sleeves there, I’ve not seen many examples of the Tudor dollies and you’ve certainly made the most out of them.
The colour scheme works really well with the coats too.
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There’s some alternative sleeve sculpts here that might be useful for you;
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1)
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There’s some alternative sleeve sculpts here that might be useful for you;
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1)
I really appreciate these tutorials on your blog Stuart. Quite selfless of you taking the time out and invaluable to anyone wanting to try their hand 8)
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Thanks for the kind words!
There’s some alternative sleeve sculpts here that might be useful for you;
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2016/10/wip-french-infantry-conversions.html?m=1)
And thanks for the link to the tutorial! Your blog's been a huge inspiration for this project so it's very much appreciated!
Good work on the sleeves. 8)
Do you have any pics of the putty process you use?
Unfortunately I don't have any mid-sculpt pictures at the moment, but I can take some once I start on the arquebusiers if that would help!
Thanks again everyone!
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Hi again! It's been uh....a while since the last post here!
I've not completely forgotten the Borgias! And finally after 10 months I've got another (small) update
I've got some more infantry this time, Cesare was apparently quite an early and enthusiastic adopter of gunpowder tactics in the field (according to Rafael Sabatini in The Life of Cesare Borgia, at least!), so I've decided to include a block of handgunners/arquebusiers for his forces
(https://i.imgur.com/em5trt3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/urJuKkz.jpg)
The handgunners themselves are based on the Steel Fist Miniatures Tudor dollies, again, using the sculpting tips in Stuart's blog, with Perry plastic mercenary arms
I ran into a bit of an issue in that some of the handgun arms in the mercenaries kit are much more suited to 'static' poses, than the more dynamic 'advancing' poses for the Tudor Dollies, so (again using tutorials from Stuart's blog: https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/07/tudor-dollies-update.html ) I cut off a few of their legs, and swapped them out with legs from the Perry plastics, to get some standing poses
(https://i.imgur.com/7Kzl4Fu.jpg)
Also, not directly related to the figures themselves, but I've been trying out some different things with the photography and lighting, so here's versions with the 'grass mat + white background' rather than 'black background' to see which looks better in a post!
(https://i.imgur.com/h2S3LKf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3kjl323.jpg)
Let me know how they've turned out!
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Fab :-*
You have certainly got the most out of those Tudor dollies from Steel Fist.
How did you find converting them? I have yet to try anything out with mine.
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Great looking unit - very nice conversions!
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Amazing job.
Or, how they would have said it themselves, stupendo!
Great conversions and painting.
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Thanks everyone!
You have certainly got the most out of those Tudor dollies from Steel Fist.
How did you find converting them? I have yet to try anything out with mine.
Converting the Tudor dollies was honestly pretty straightforward! Where they're basically 1:1 with the Perry sculpts, the legs on the dollies match up to about knee-height on the WotR plastics, so swapping those out isn't an issue. Sometimes the Perry legs are slightly wider than the dollies' though, so there's a little bit of putty work to just cover up any gaps, but other than that it's fine!
The only issue I think I ran into was some weird castings for the Tudor heads, where a few of them were...a little melted-looking in places! But nothing insurmountable!
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Hi again!
A bit of a question more than an update this time!
I'm (hopefully faster this time) working on a second block of handgunners, and I was looking at what flags to use for the unit, on the Borgia flags sheet by Pete's flags there are two versions of the 'normal' Borgia coat-of-arms, one with the regular yellow border (the one I used on the handgunners previously), and one with a red border.
So question is, does anyone know what the significance of the red-bordered Borgia flag is? Is it the personal variation of a particular family member?
(I don't want to post a picture of it directly, so here's a link to the seller page on eBay with the flag on, if that helps at all https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28mm-Medieval-Renaissance-Italian-Flags-Borgia-/254202038547 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/28mm-Medieval-Renaissance-Italian-Flags-Borgia-/254202038547))
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Lovely work on these 8)
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Those arquebusiers are awesome, excellent job on bulking out the arms to make them more voluminous.
Really impressed with them !
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Red border, yellow border?
Easier to say than "red lorry, yellow lorry".
Is there a significance, probably not. There are not that many images or descriptions of flags from this period so I suspect that quite a lot are made up. I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Pete's Flags, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was either.
It could be a flag associated with any one of the brothers, or daddy, of course but, if it is, it doesn't help you much because they were prominent at different times. Daddy Pope would most likely use the Papal arms and not his own in any event because Papal arms were superior in the pecking order (so he, and his personal guard, would carry those, not his family coat of arms).
There are a lot of made up 'variations on a theme' out there (when it comes to flags) because it's the best and only way to go in many cases.
Even doing known flags from written descriptions isn't an exact science unless it is a coat of arms. It's a bit like asking people, who have never seen an elephant, to draw an elephant from a simple description - no two pictures will ever be the same.
My advice, when it comes to flags (and much else besides when it comes to the Italian Wars) is not to think about some things too much, don't get hung up about them, and go with the flow. In a lot of cases, the answers are NOT KNOWN.
I've been interested in the Italian Wars for 20 years but I can't say I've learnt that much that's new for the last fifteen of them because nearly everything is a rehash, or a new take, on the comparatively little material that has been previously published and it nearly all uses the same scant sources. When I started out I thought there would be far, far more information than there is.
The printing press might have been invented in 1440 but, apparently no one wanted books on contemporary military history, uniforms, flags, etc. so authors wrote very little about them. The average Joe, on the streets of Rome or Venice, wanted Mills and Boon, or books on the Romans, so Italia Amazonia, which delivered printed parchment using powerful homing pigeons (called Drones) way back then, stocked those instead.
Caveat emptor. Some of this reply is fake news.
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Red border, yellow border?
Easier to say than "red lorry, yellow lorry".
Is there a significance, probably not. There are not that many images or descriptions of flags from this period so I suspect that quite a lot are made up. I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Pete's Flags, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was either.
It could be a flag associated with any one of the brothers, or daddy, of course but, if it is, it doesn't help you much because they were prominent at different times. Daddy Pope would most likely use the Papal arms and not his own in any event because Papal arms were superior in the pecking order (so he, and his personal guard, would carry those, not his family coat of arms).
There are a lot of made up 'variations on a theme' out there (when it comes to flags) because it's the best and only way to go in many cases.
Caveat emptor. Some of this reply is fake news.
Thanks for the heads up! I'll probably use both versions in that case! :D
Another quick update from my end though! I've been (very slowly) painting up some Gendarmes to go along with the Borgia force.
These came in the group of 6 I bought Cesare in way back when, from Steel Fist Miniatures, and they're lovely figures (though I did have some trouble getting their heads to stay on at first!), so I wanted to take some extra time on the barding to personalise them a bit, while also keeping in the general red/yellow colour scheme (although I know historically gendarmes would be in a whole array of colours in the field)
The first one took way longer than I expected to get the lattice-pattern down, but I'm quite happy with how it's turned out!
(https://i.imgur.com/ExDGWpb.jpg)
With the second red Char Custom horse, I saw the horns on the horse's head and had the idea to add flames to the barding to act as some kind of, fiery hell-horse (and to go faster, naturally). The patterning is loosely based on some contemporary engravings of the Battle of Fornovo
(https://i.imgur.com/BnDiqQg.jpg)
And finally for a little bit of a breather, I did one with some plain metallic barding, with just the reins patterned in Borgia yellow/red to tie him in with the rest of the bunch
(https://i.imgur.com/Two165O.jpg)
And here's some shots of the group all together
(https://i.imgur.com/jZMDESe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eLCjbgo.jpg)
I figure the Gendarmes themselves are possibly a tad anachronistic for the time Cesare is wandering around in Romagna, but not by too much to break suspension of disbelief! But just in case, I've avoided any overt Borgia symbolism on the barding, so they can be used for either Louis XII, or some later Papal cavalry as well if needed!
Let me know how they've turned out!
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Magnificently turned out :-*
That lattice work was well worth the effort!
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They are looking great!
Looking forward to seeing more in the future.
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Thanks both! I have three left in the pipeline for that unit (with some Perry plastic horses mixed in, so hopefully those end up looking the part!)
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Love the Gendarmes, they look great!
I love this period I have my collection, some painted, in 15mm
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Hi again!
I've been working at finishing off the rest of the unit of gendarmes, this time a mix of Steel Fist with some Perry bits thrown in as well
The first is an unmodified Steel Fist figure, (with incredibly fancy sleeves!)
(https://i.imgur.com/8gqredr.jpg)
The second is a Steel Fist gendarme, mounted on a Perry plastic horse, the original figure's horse had a full caparison which I didn't think quite fit in with the look I was going for (so I'm saving that for later!). Thankfully the Steel Fist and Perry figures scale basically 1:1 so size wasn't an issue at all
(https://i.imgur.com/CKS7Xqe.jpg)
And finally the standard bearer is a full Perry plastic man-at-arms, with a green-stuff skirt to renaissance him up a bit. The flag is attached to a piece of brass rod so it can be swapped out for other banners if I need to
(https://i.imgur.com/ON2rjIx.jpg)
And here's the full unit of Gendarmes together
(https://i.imgur.com/LTBFaLL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/N0XDqgj.jpg)
And for some extra shots, here's Cesare Borgia, together with his gendarmes
(https://i.imgur.com/7XP1tzn.jpg)
And finally here's the full cavalry wing (so far), with the gendarmes combined to the less fancy men-at-arms
(https://i.imgur.com/GitMyn0.jpg)
Let me know how they've turned out!
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Let me know how they've turned out!
I think they look splendid!
Great colours and conversions to make them look right for the period
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They look great together.
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Lovely work :-*
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Those look amazing! I especially like the detailing on the horse caprisons. :)
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A xmas gift :-*
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Those are gorgeous. Well done :-*
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Great stuff
do you know if Steel Fist miniatures are compatible with the Assault Group Italians?
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Great stuff
do you know if Steel Fist miniatures are compatible with the Assault Group Italians?
Yeas, they're all usable for the rough 1513 era. Steel Fist Miniatures would be used for 1515 onwards up to a point say to Bicocca 1522. Certainly not Ceresole 1544 where Plunderhosen would be a prominent fashion feature of the Landsknechts. Hope that helps?
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Fantastic painting, look forward to seeing more !
Brian