Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Renfield286 on 17 July 2009, 03:02:08 PM
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im not sure how to start this post.
its mostly a musing about how integral bases annoy me because they don't leave that much room for being creative with the base. (its one of the reasons that i there are certain companies that although have nice sculpts, have made the bases impossible to remove without damaging the mini sculpt and so i will never buy them)
and i prefer slotters because you can remove that bit of metal from the base of the mini far easier that way.
i tend to base my miniatures on plastic bases (a habit that being a GW and confrontation player has left me with) that get decorated separately from the miniature.
Texture base, paint base, apply painted mini (by pinning and superglue) is how i tend to do it.
i also tend to use different shaped bases depending on the setting.
so
Fantasy/historic (anything where most of them will be ranked up) get Square.
Modern/ultra modern get hex
Future gets round (and sometimes hex)
anyone else use any similar methods, or have similar frustrations at integral based mini's
or is it just me being anal?
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I have a bunch of lovely reaper slave girl minis I intend to paint up for a project rattling around in my head, but I cant because of the cast bases that I know if I try and remove will take a chunk of the feet with them.
Come on people, intergral bases went out of fashion in the 80's!
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I just glue the integral base onto a square or round base and then use filler/sand mix to texture it, paint and flock.. It's a lot quicker than removing the old base and then drilling and pinning the figure to the new one and once textured the original base is completely hidden. That is, of course unless it is one of those very thick ones, but even then the texturing does a good job of disguising it.
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I Think that it doesn’t bother me as much as it does for others… I just put those Reaper figures on Litko round bases without even trimming the integral base…
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll206/Calimero_34/Photo755.jpg)
Speaking of integral base, I think that those from Blue Moon Manufacturing are the worst to try to remove. I, myself let them as they are…
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll206/Calimero_34/Photo1456b.jpg)
The only thing that bother me about bases are the "plastic slotta base" type, I think they are too thick even for 28mm figures...
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll206/Calimero_34/Photo1027.jpg)
But that just me... ;D
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This is a very longstanding and oft repeated debate here.
Generally (but not exclusively) people who grew up with historical wargames figures prefer integral bases (like me), people who grew up with GW prefer slottas. It's just what you're used to.
Personally I hate and loathe slottas with a vengeance and I won't buy slotta based figures (no, not even Copplestone's lovely gangsters).
Why?
Because I don't like the lightweight feel of the plastic. I don't like the tacky look of the plastic. I don't like the 'plinth' effect raising the figure up out of its surroundings. And I don't like the fact that the slotta originated so that GW could get away with using less metal in their figures (whilst charging more for them)! :D
Apart from that, I'm fine with it. ;)
Seriously though, I mount nearly all my figures on 25mm round washers which provided ample scope for lots of lovely creative basing. I've included everything from small pools to bits of broken down wall as well as the usual rocks and vegetation. Same kind of scope as on a slotta, but without the stupid plastic plinth :)
(I know not everyone will agree lol)
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I just glue the integral base onto a square or round base and then use filler/sand mix to texture it, paint and flock.. It's a lot quicker than removing the old base and then drilling and pinning the figure to the new one and once textured the original base is completely hidden. That is, of course unless it is one of those very thick ones, but even then the texturing does a good job of disguising it.
I do almost exactly that with inegral bases, except I use 2mm plywood bases from Fenris Games: http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Fenris-Games_Other_W0QQ_fsubZ1QQ_sidZ55776203QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322
For slotta minis, I use slotta bases. Sometimes I use resin bases instead. Whatever I think will look good - I don't feel the need for every single mini in an army to be based identically - so long as they're OK for the rules we're using and they look fine. How you flock/sand/paint your bases has more of a cohesive effect on a force for me, than if all the bases are identical.
YMMV. In fact, it probably does :D
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Slotta tabs are alright. The intended slot placement has its benefits, if you can stand the thick plastics. It's sturdy and simple. Still, the tabs are easy to remove if you want to pin the feet directly into those fancy resin casts or a magnificent diorama.
Foundry's fingernail-sized integrals are also acceptable. They blend easily even to the thinnest plywood bases. Very useful if you want to minimise the lumps dragged by your adventurers. In that use the small integrals hold even better than de-tabbed slottas.
Reaper's huge broccoli lumps are annoying. Has anyone used them "as is" since the early 80s? Everyone wants round/square bases so the lump doesn't help at all. They take ages to blend or cut off.
Grenadier's 3mm thick, large and sharp-edged integrals are also evil. It took half a bucket of sand to bury them when I was basing my barbarian horde. Fortunately they're on movement trays. Otherwise the combined height of bases would look silly. Removal requires power tools and constant attention or the feet will be gone too.
Dear manufacturers: This is 2009. People have their own, justified basing preferences. Please minimise the burden of your "suggested solution". Use the enormous lump o' tin to cast another miniature instead.
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I was using American pennies for bases on my Foundry DA miniatures. They are a bit small, even though the price is right (it's a penny!).
I am now using washers that are about the size of a GW slotta base. I will have to transfer some of my DA to the washers, as I'd like them uniform, but besides that I'm pretty happy with the size.
As far as integral bases, from Reaper and such, I usually just plop them on the washers as well.
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Slotta tabs are alright. The intended slot placement has its benefits, if you can stand the thick plastics. It's sturdy and simple. Still, the tabs are easy to remove if you want to pin the feet directly into those fancy resin casts or a magnificent diorama.
Thats pretty much what i use them for. i do it for pretty much all of my minis now. saves me re painting the shoes after the base (or the base after the shoes)
i do like resin bases too, i have skull pile bases for certain characters (micro art)
Foundry's fingernail-sized integrals are also acceptable. They blend easily even to the thinnest plywood bases. Very useful if you want to minimise the lumps dragged by your adventurers. In that use the small integrals hold even better than de-tabbed slottas.
yeah, i have a few that i have taken the tiny base off and managed to file it around. i don't mind that
Dear manufacturers: This is 2009. People have their own, justified basing preferences. Please minimise the burden of your "suggested solution". Use the enormous lump o' tin to cast another miniature instead.
QFT.
Personally I hate and loathe slottas with a vengeance and I won't buy slotta based figures (no, not even Copplestone's lovely gangsters).
Why?
Because I don't like the lightweight feel of the plastic. I don't like the tacky look of the plastic. I don't like the 'plinth' effect raising the figure up out of its surroundings. And I don't like the fact that the slotta originated so that GW could get away with using less metal in their figures (whilst charging more for them)! :D
Apart from that, I'm fine with it. ;)
Fair points one and all, but i still feel that bases that are already attached are taking away the basing choice
Seriously though, I mount nearly all my figures on 25mm round washers which provided ample scope for lots of lovely creative basing. I've included everything from small pools to bits of broken down wall as well as the usual rocks and vegetation. Same kind of scope as on a slotta, but without the stupid plastic plinth :)
(I know not everyone will agree lol)
25mm washer does seem like a good option.
i quite like the plinth but as you say, its a matter of taste i suppose.
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I used to use slotta bases but have drifted to cheaper washers now. I normally just glue everything (including fixed bases) to them and then just build up terrain around them. For me it's not even important that tehre are little raised areas underneath the models feet only. Sometimes I hide those with static grass or little rocks or the like.
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I detest slotta bases because of the extra height it gives the figures and so makes them incompatible with my other models - I've been wargaming for 45 years.
I detest huge cast on metal bases (bluemoon) especially when they are difficult to remove or even reduce.
I use card bases and only remove a base if I have to.
I like figures with small cast on bases.
I like figures with tabs so long as the need for a tab does not create a flatter pose on the figure.
Most of all I will not buy figures that are too tall to fit with what I already have. I have stopped buying Copplestone figures for this reason because of size creep. The last I bought were the Sikh Infantry who tower above my other troops. A pity because I have a large force of his figures.
Alan
Alan
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Most of all I will not buy figures that are too tall to fit with what I already have. I have stopped buying Copplestone figures for this reason because of size creep. The last I bought were the Sikh Infantry who tower above my other troops. A pity because I have a large force of his figures.
Alan
I'm also concerned with "size creep", as it renders some figures incompatible with others. My biggest concern would be copplestone with my wonderful Foundry (copplestone!) Darkest Africa figs.
That's another reason I try and stick to washers now. I don't want the figures raised to far, making some already big figures Yao Ming in size to some of my smaller 25mm figures.
I do appreciate a certain amount of size difference, just like real life. I just want to cut down on the appearance of 7 foot tall giants!
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Put me in the "can't stand slottabases" category - they're far too tall and distracting, even if they're just 20mm across. My Copplestone gangsters are going to be rebased onto sane bases sometime soonish - all the rest of my pulp 28mm stuff is on pennies, and they look far, far better.
I'm not a fan of huge bases at all, actually. Why put a 28mm figure on a base as wide as it is tall, or even wider?
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I only hate the integrals if they're too damn big for the plastic bases and washers or if I really absolutely want to put them on a "special" base, like a mini-diorama than requires their feet free.
The plastic bases are good because they reduce the contact the miniatures' bases have with the terrain and whatnot that they're on, but the washers have more weight making them less likely to get knocked over (though gluing smaller washers and pennies to the undersides of the non-slotta ones does help). More often than not I prefer pretty terrain over gamer-quality slap-stick. :D
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I'm in the can't stand slotta camp too. Captain Blood and others have pretty must nailed most of the reasons why I'm against them too. However one other point is that for some poses they aren't heavy enough to anchor the miniature properly. I have though about producing a range of white metal replacement slotta bases to deal with this problem. Trouble is would there be a market for them?
Everyone here is dedicated to the hobby, and knows about basing etc. But take a new green 15 year old whose just bought his first few minis, and now finds they either won't stand up or keep slipping out of the plastic slot. He'll either try and sort the problem out with advice from good forums such as this, or shove them back in a drawer and move on to something else.
They are also a pain to photograph for the shop.
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This is a very longstanding and oft repeated debate here.
Generally (but not exclusively) people who grew up with historical wargames figures prefer integral bases (like me), people who grew up with GW prefer slottas. It's just what you're used to.
When I started wargaming, figures had wafer thin bases which when mounted on a good quality illustration board (cardboard) could be easily disguised with a good coating of white glue covered in flock.
Nowadays you have to use mounting board, and it is inferior in quality and warps quite easily. Which drives you to plastic, which can also warp depending on how large the base is.
To mount a number of figures on a single base requires, IMO, a thickness of at least 2mm or you get warping, no matter what material you use. Except of course, a fine illustration board, which is no longer readily available.
For individual miniatures, I use both individual slotta bases and metal washers. I default to slotta bases because some manufactures produce quite large figures (Copplestone) and I can "even them all out" by using metal washers.
Metal washers, however, do have a draw back and that is extra weight. Drop a mini with a metal washer and you are much more likely to sustain damage to the mini.
As for the metal bases that come attached to the figures themselves... Damn, why do manufactures put some much metal there? If you mount them as is, you end up with the mini looking like it's standing on a small mound. I hate that. To avoid that look I almost always file down the metal base to around 1.5mm in thickness and then place milliput around the figure base to give it a flat appearance.
Personally, I am not very concerned about basing. I want it to look okay, but I'm just not into making mini dioramas for each individual figure. I guess that goes back to my 70's mentality of producing lots of figures to put on the gaming table.
In the end, to each his own...
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I am going to stand pretty much on my own here I guess. I like the display bases. the round lipped ones. They take slotta based figure and most integral bases fit in the void and can be coverd with my white pumice paste. The only ones I have had really bad dealings with are the integral bases on the Bronzeage figures they are the worst fo me. They are so big and thick (almost as much metal in the base as in the figure) and dang near impossible to cut off Those of you who want an integral base with heft thats the way to go. ( I did hear from bronzeage games that they were going to cut down on the base size thanks God)
http://bandit86.blogspot.com/
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I base historical figures on washers, fantasy and sci-fi on slottabases. I find that life's too short to try to grind/file/cut off integral bases, so I just stick them on the slotta and blend with putty or spackle.
Apparently I'm in the minority, I've never been particularly enraged by either type of base.
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I bought the Warmachine slotta bases with the lip for my weird war 2 figures. I did this because I'm using miniatures from various manufacturers, some with cast bases and others with slot tags. I simply guled the base to the plasitc base and filled it with squadron putty. I wanted uniform bases and this has worked well. The only "problem" base I've had so far has been a huge chunk of a base for the Reaper classic Frankenstien.
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Interesting to see so much pro-integral sentiment. I wasn't expecting that. I personally am firmly in the pro-slottabase camp for the simple reason that I have almost never seen an integral base big or heavy enough to keep a figure from constantly falling over. Also many of the integral bases I've run into are not properly flat on the bottom and require extensive filing and sometimes some putty just to sit straight on the table. When I see an integral based mini I just assume that I'm going to have to mount it on another, bigger base, which (as Renfield said at the beginning of the thread) usually looks like hell. To each his own, I suppose.
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...I have almost never seen an integral base big or heavy enough to keep a figure from constantly falling over. Also many of the integral bases I've run into are not properly flat on the bottom and require extensive filing and sometimes some putty just to sit straight on the table.
But that's because figures with integral bases are designed to be glued onto other bases - not to stand unassisted.
You might as well say that a figure with a tab doesn't stand up very well unless you glue it into its slotta plinth.
Cutting to the chase here, I think this is just another manifestation of the age-old historicals vs fantasy / sci-fi schism.
Basically, sculptors and producers with a background in historical (or pseudo historical) genres produce figures with integral bases because the assumption is that in most cases - and usually almost exclusively for things like Napoleonics, Ancients etc - the figures will be multiple-mounted on 'unit' multiple bases of various shapes and sizes.
What on earth would the point of a slotta base be?
On the other hand, those who have come up through the GW and GW-alike fantasy / sci-fi universe, with its much higher proportion of individual character figures and game systems which call for the regular removal of single figures, even where you do have massed units, tend to be firmly wedded to the slotta.
The issue, such as it is, is really only one for deviants like me who like to play skirmish (or large skirmish) games with individually mounted historical / pseudo-historical figures which tend to come with integral bases. The widely adopted solution of sticking the figure to a metal washer or coin for weight, stability, and scenic basing, seems a perfectly workable and elegant solution, and in the eyes of some, is a lot better than having the figure on a ruddy great plastic plinth ;)
To each his own, I suppose.
I think that's the only real point to be taken from this oft-repeated argument :)
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But that's because figures with integral bases are designed to be glued onto other bases - not to stand unassisted.
Yes most of the historical figures are designed that way. I find that they look just a good glued onto a slotta base as they do on a washer.
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But that's because figures with integral bases are designed to be glued onto other bases - not to stand unassisted.
Not always. Many Reaper figures are perfectly stable on their own; as are most of the Ground Zero Games (GZG) 15mm & 25mm I own.
It does seem to be more true of friend's historical figures - most 15mm Napoleonics have minimal bases because unit basing of some sort is standard in Nap gaming.
I've got a batch of MegaMinis 25mm SF on the painting desk right now that won't need additional bases - they've got integral round bases about 17mm across that're more than stable enough to work as-is.
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I am going to stand pretty much on my own here I guess. I like the display bases. the round lipped ones. They take slotta based figure and most integral bases fit in the void and can be coverd with my white pumice paste. The only ones I have had really bad dealings with are the integral bases on the Bronzeage figures they are the worst fo me. They are so big and thick (almost as much metal in the base as in the figure) and dang near impossible to cut off Those of you who want an integral base with heft thats the way to go. ( I did hear from bronzeage games that they were going to cut down on the base size thanks God)
http://bandit86.blogspot.com/
You're not alone, Bandito... ;)
I made a very conscious decision when I got into Pulp gaming to use the Privateer Press-style dished display bases as a way to help unify my various pulp-themed figures from different lines on the tabletop. Because the display base has a recessed area, it will take a small/thin integral base without raising the figure up too high or making it seem like they're standing on a hummock. Conversely, slottabased figures can use the slot provided, or be clipped from their tabs and pinned to the base as needed. Now that Fenris, etc. are making high-quality textured resin bases in the same style, the variety of choice is only increased. You can see the "unifying" effect in this scale comparison photo here:
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u219/Heldrak/Forum%20Saves/IMG_0002-28.jpg)
Even though the figures shown are all from different companies, it wouldn't be jarring to see them together on the tabletop (in the appropriate genre-bending scenario ;)).
In the photo shown, the two outside figures (WSD & Artizan) have texture built up over their integral bases, the Bronze Age figure has had his huge ungainly integral base removed, and the Copplestone Detective has had his slotta tab removed and he has been mounted on a textured inset plate.
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...integral, Slotter and other...
I love 'em all :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/LostWorld/Witcheimer.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/HF/scale.jpg)
I just use what I think will look "right" with each paintjob.
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I'm not particular. The main reason I stopped using slottas and started using small coins was that my figures were taking up too much space and sometimes you couldn't fit them into trench sections, canoes, gunboats, etc. For me the switch was entirely about the practicalities of gaming, and nothing to do with aesthetic appeal.
I still occasionally will base with slottas if the mood takes me. The only ones I'm not keen on are the rounded display ones as described above. If figures come with those I usually swap them for a GW-style slotta.
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See, its not just base sizes for me either, its the shape too. i would only really use the display bases for magi-tech based games (like warmachine)
i do get a bit odd about basing fantasy/historical on round bases.
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I'm not particular. The main reason I stopped using slottas and started using small coins was that my figures were taking up too much space and sometimes you couldn't fit them into trench sections, canoes, gunboats, etc. For me the switch was entirely about the practicalities of gaming, and nothing to do with aesthetic appeal.
I still occasionally will base with slottas if the mood takes me. The only ones I'm not keen on are the rounded display ones as described above. If figures come with those I usually swap them for a GW-style slotta.
That's a good point- The slottabase (particularly the display-type) does tend to increase the footprint of the model. This can be problematic for those that need to place their models onboard vehicles, or on stairways, catwalks, etc.
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I'm not fond of slotted or integral bases, myself. I always remove the slot or the integral base and re-base my figures on pennies. They're low to the ground, constant size, can't beat the price with plastic bases, and I'm not going to suddenly run out of them any time soon.
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I tend to use Slotta bases.
Simply because they are more like display bases and I am of the GW generation.
The metal bases that Alternative Armies put out were quite good, a little expensive though. Really good for top heavy models though.
I see what a lot of you mean about the height thing though. I just think it looks neater. Coins are okay though.
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It's interesting to notice that half of the people here are talking about their external base choices, while another half discusses how the miniatures themselves should be made. The mini is just a piece of metal. No plywood, pennies or plastic there (in a real mini, that is ;)). One with a tab often goes to a slottabase, but that's by no means compulsory. It's entirely possible to cut the tab off in two seconds and use any base in the world. Alternatively, you can buy thin plywood slottas from Litko. Just file the tab down slightly if needed. It still holds perfectly and your mini doesn't have to be any higher than with integral bases. Integrals fit instantly to any flat surface, but removal can range from slightly tedious to nearly impossible, depending on the design. It seriously limits the choices or increases the workload if you want to use resin bases, for example.
I don't know if there's any real point in this post. I just observed that people use different interpretations of the original question. I thought it was mostly about design in the manufacturer's end.
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It's interesting to see how the debate runs though. Every single time I've seen this happen, it runs the same course. The only difference here is that nobody's popped in with sales figures.
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It's interesting to see how the debate runs though. Every single time I've seen this happen, it runs the same course. The only difference here is that nobody's popped in with sales figures.
lol
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I made a very conscious decision when I got into Pulp gaming to use the Privateer Press-style dished display bases as a way to help unify my various pulp-themed figures from different lines on the tabletop. Because the display base has a recessed area, it will take a small/thin integral base without raising the figure up too high or making it seem like they're standing on a hummock. Conversely, slottabased figures can use the slot provided, or be clipped from their tabs and pinned to the base as needed. Now that Fenris, etc. are making high-quality textured resin bases in the same style, the variety of choice is only increased. You can see the "unifying" effect in this scale comparison photo here:
I've done the same thing when I stared Weird War with Artizan, Darkson, Ral Partha and SOTR. IU'll post a comparison figure when they're painted.
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It's interesting to see how the debate runs though.
I agree it is interesting to see what other people do.
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It's interesting to notice that half of the people here are talking about their external base choices, while another half discusses how the miniatures themselves should be made. The mini is just a piece of metal. No plywood, pennies or plastic there (in a real mini, that is ;)). One with a tab often goes to a slottabase, but that's by no means compulsory. It's entirely possible to cut the tab off in two seconds and use any base in the world. Alternatively, you can buy thin plywood slottas from Litko. Just file the tab down slightly if needed. It still holds perfectly and your mini doesn't have to be any higher than with integral bases. Integrals fit instantly to any flat surface, but removal can range from slightly tedious to nearly impossible, depending on the design. It seriously limits the choices or increases the workload if you want to use resin bases, for example.
I don't know if there's any real point in this post. I just observed that people use different interpretations of the original question. I thought it was mostly about design in the manufacturer's end.
it was mostly me having a bit of a rant about how i cut half a foot from a dwarf when trying a new way to remove the integral base from him.
but i am a much bigger fan of tabbed mini's.
but then again, i cut the tab off and fill the hole on the slotta before pinning the mini onto it (after texturing and painting both mini and base)
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It's interesting to see how the debate runs though. Every single time I've seen this happen, it runs the same course. The only difference here is that nobody's popped in with sales figures.
well, if someone did, how could you calculate how many people use washers or pennies as bases?
or even wood and cardboard for that matter?
its not like you could go off the core distribution of those.
and I'm sure GW\Rackham\reaper go through tonnes of slottas (most of which come with the miniatures) but then again, there is a percentage of those that will never get used due to the individuals deciding to place them on a different base.
on the flip side I'm sure that many companies that produce mini's on integral bases get through tonnes of those too. but again, not everyone is going to base them the same.
I don't think sales figures mean much here.
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Sorry to drift a bit OT, but I've really come to depend on GF9's Econo Bases for my integral-base minis. They're essentially just MDF cut to just about whatever size you want in round, oval, or square. I got a big pack of 25mm rounds and they've been real lifesavers. I've got a review on my website, but it's from the very beginning of the project so the writing and photography is a little... rough around the edges. Still, it's worth a look for anybody interested in a very inexpensive basing solution.
Oh, and in the review I heave a lot of invective towards the very concept of integral bases because they drive me crazy. I reckon I might have cut all that nonsense out if I were writing it today...
http://thescreamingalpha.com/2009/01/18/review-econo-bases-by-gale-force-nine/
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I use washers because that is how God wanted us to base our miniatures. Those of you who don't know where *you* will end up.
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I use washers because that is how God wanted us to base our miniatures.
That's the best argument on this topic I've heard in 2 years! lol
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By the way, for slotters I cut slots in 25mm washers with a emery disc and a Dremel. A pretty quick job with the right tools. For miniatures with plugs (may I suggest 'pluggers'?), like GW LotR horses I drill holes but for that I find that you need good tungsten drills and a power drill.