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Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Wellington Bonaparte on 07 January 2020, 08:54:58 PM

Title: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Wellington Bonaparte on 07 January 2020, 08:54:58 PM: I've just started 15mm German/British armies for the battle of France in 1940, anew departure for me as apart from dabbling in a VBCW I've never done any modern era wargaming. Just started to put together some Matida II tanks and some German panzer 38(t),but I'm struggling with tbe grey for the German afv's and the green for tbe Brits.
My question is what is the best grey for tbe Germans (or mix) and the green for the Brits.? I generally use Vallajio paints, their grey seems to dark for me and the Russian uniform green for the British tanks doesn't look right.
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Shahbahraz on 07 January 2020, 09:51:30 PM: I take a pragmatic view, that weather, the sun, dust, different paint suppliers etc. will change colours dramatically, so I am aiming for a decent approximation, not seeking to copy a paint chip or make a precise rendition.

For the British, I'm using Tamiya XF 67 (Nato Green) with a camouflage pattern of Tamiya XF 61 (Dark Green). By the time it is weathered, it will be quite different.

For German armour, I use a very much lightened Vallejo German Grey. Now technically, for the French and Polish campaigns, there should be a decent chunk of the German armour in grey with brown splotches, but I would like to use the same toys for the Russian campaign, so my Early War German vehicles are all grey.
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Fitz on 07 January 2020, 11:22:07 PM: My favourite base colour for early-war German vehicles is VMC 869 Basalt Grey. It's substantially lighter than their German Grey; it darkens slightly when the weathering washes go on, but still not nearly that dark.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qq624CJzmFY/WTngyWjX5yI/AAAAAAAAIQA/g6kIngF0pjMridw7It0K9Ja3oFUj7htZACLcB/s1600/20170609Pz3F.jpg)

For the Brits, I use Mike Starmer's recipe for Khaki Green No.3 and VMC 888 Olive Grey.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AH1cO0ZGGQA/VpBQHX5xBnI/AAAAAAAAFks/KLvObWxBUDY/s1600/kg3.jpg)

That recipe is right here (http://mojobob.blogspot.com/2016/01/khaki-green-3.html).
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Wellington Bonaparte on 07 January 2020, 11:26:33 PM: Thanks guys, I'll give both a go see which works for me. Fitz I've really got to get some of your fantastic stuff off of shapeways, perfect for my VBCW troops, particularly like the Hawker Hart lokks superb :-*
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Powermonger on 09 January 2020, 05:51:06 PM: Regarding the British, I´ve made this guide some time ago. Hope you will find it useful:

http://www.thewargamespot.com/bef-g3g4-scheme-painting-guide/

Regards,
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on 09 January 2020, 06:36:07 PM: For laziness, I sprayed the Warlord Opel Blitz with Citadel Mechanicum Standard Grey.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8VL7A2Wj1dE/XB_OhVuvhZI/AAAAAAAAEfQ/Z_BUp9o0a4MzZlny31U2RYZwZzzODSGFgCLcBGAs/s1600/wgblitz28.png)

My Panzer I with autocannon is also Citadel Mechnicum Standard Grey.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mxia4iqsv3g/WlpTyEIzpNI/AAAAAAAAC34/5xVJghmW6ZMZddKeImQ9_LesbKqWUvbDACLcBGAs/s1600/pz1b-26.png)
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Truscott Trotter on 09 January 2020, 10:12:47 PM: Whilst I agree light /medium grey shows the details of the model better the actual German Panzers were painted a dark grey for a reason - the idea was to hide in the shadows of trees etc - I am not sure it worked that well in RL but that's what I read.
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Wellington Bonaparte on 10 January 2020, 12:13:08 AM: Quote from: Powermonger on 09 January 2020, 05:51:06 PM
Regarding the British, I´ve made this guide some time ago. Hope you will find it useful:

http://www.thewargamespot.com/bef-g3g4-scheme-painting-guide/

Regards,
Fantastic article and really helpful thanks very much
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Wellington Bonaparte on 10 January 2020, 12:16:12 AM: Quote from: Truscott Trotter on 09 January 2020, 10:12:47 PM
Whilst I agree light /medium grey shows the details of the model better the actual German Panzers were painted a dark grey for a reason - the idea was to hide in the shadows of trees etc - I am not sure it worked that well in RL but that's what I read.

Thats part of the problem I've been having, any coloured photos or pictures show the vehicles much darker than those shown here on models. While it may be more correct to paint them the darker grey I much prefer them the lighter/mid grey.
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Fitz on 10 January 2020, 12:41:20 AM: (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EQXhvlsuauA/XhfFUBdme_I/AAAAAAAAN2c/BIJpEvzj1asR-np62VIumQX1fW39ONuwwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/2020-01-10_GermanParade.jpg)

This is a colour photograph taken by Hitler's personal photographer, Hugo Jaeger, of German troops standing around waiting to parade. It's early in the war; the panzer troops are still in their big black berets, and all the equipment is still painted grey. Interestingly, there are no balkenkreuz or tactical numbers showing on any of the vehicles, but they may very well have been freshly painted specifically for the parade.

Although it's a colour photo (not a colourized black & white photo), that doesn't necessarily mean the colours are accurate. At best, we can look at elements that are in known colours to judge the colour balance and exposure of the image as a whole.

In this case, there's not a lot to choose from. The colour of the German No.1 uniform of the men on horseback is reasonably well known from existing museum pieces, and there's the skin tone of the men. To me the colour balance looks fairly good, maybe a little on the green side, which would be normal for colour film of the time, and the image as a whole is perhaps just a fraction under-exposed.
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: Etranger on 10 January 2020, 01:00:22 AM: Fitz - the trucks (at least) are in the two tone 2/3 gray 1/3 brown scheme - the darker patches on the sides are the brown. The PzIIs may be in the same scheme. Other photos from parades from the same period do show other vehicles in the two tone scheme.

(http://wraki39.pobitwie.pl/_data/i/upload/2019/04/07/20190407140427-4f432834-me.jpg)
Not so easy to tell but the gray-brown scheme again. The lack of contrast between the gray and brown was one of the reasons why this scheme was withdrawn.

(https://lh3.ggpht.com/m2NtpuMMh2rXCa5b9Ujq6nu_l5IN7BRjuj2MmOIN9UX1YHqWwiFqXhQW) This photo, also by Jaeger and of the same parade as the first photo show the effects of dust on the gray paint. Compare the towing vehicles to the AT guns. It's attributed to a parade in Warsaw October 1939.

Also note the difference in the red colour on the hanging banner between the two photos, taken by the same photographer on the same day in the same location and presumably using the same camera and film. Effect of the sunlight or some post processing manipulation I'm not sure.

Lots more from Jaeger here: http://wraki39.pobitwie.pl/index.php?/category/276
Title: Re: Early war British and german afv colours
Post by: FreakyFenton on 10 January 2020, 04:23:14 PM: The tank museum Munster or the technical Museum Sinnsheim (Might be spelled differently) have a few period vehicles in original colours, so could try their sites to find answers.

Early War paintjobs were either Panzergrau as described above, or a mix of Panzergrau and a very dark Chocolate Brown in patches.