Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Wyrmalla on 09 May 2020, 11:54:14 PM
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With Mike Bravo Miniatures gone AWOL I'm wondering what the other options for the Israel Defense Force are. Specifically figures armed with Tavors.
Mongrel Miniatures figures come with Galils. Stan Johansen Miniatures do have Tavors, but I'm not into the sculpting - nor the price with international shipping.
Spectre Miniatures does one mercenary with a Tavor (maybe a few more), not much to make a force out of.
And that's about it as far as I'm aware. Which is a shame, particularly in that the figures could be used for a number of foreign forces as well (which is what I'm wanting to use them for).
Any ideas, or is this something I'll have to wait another decade on to find figures for? Or if someone has that set of figures I ordered that never showed up from Mike Bravo maybe put a comment in. ;)
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I believe White Dragon Miniatures in their Courage in Conflict range will be bringing out modern IDF.
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Tagore, but possibly not the right scale...
(https://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/images/thumbs/0000208_tavor-rifles-with-arms-3_550.jpeg)
https://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/tavor-arms (https://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/tavor-arms)
I suspect they are too chunky for modern gamers, but I suspect my Space Opera rebels in a Galaxy far far away might find a use for them.
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Currently holding out for White Dragon IDF. I have his Brits and they're very nice, slightly chunky compared to other ranges but allows for painting them that much easier.
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Yeah, the Anvil Industry figures are unfortunately aimed at the 40K crowd - which is a pity as they have so much stuff which is just unusable unless you're using the bits for larger scale figures.
White Dragon May be what to look out for then. Their proportions will be the main concern - as my existing figures are mostly Empress, which tend to be tall, but with a skinnier profile. If its just a squad of guys with Tavors though then their guns being a bit larger may not be so obvious.
If I could get a hold of the loose guns though I'd be looking at sculpting up the figures themselves. But gone are those days - and I'm not involved with 3D printers. :/
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Find a drawing and I'll take a look if you just want guns.
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Crivens Rich, that's be great! :D
Would this be suitable?
https://victorcg.artstation.com/projects/0qd6K
If you could do me a set of those then I'd go ahead and sculpt up some female Ukrainian soldiers with them, and be right chuffed of course. ;)
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Needs to be side on and a line drawing ideally. I did have a quick look but I don't know which model of tavor
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Ideally I'm looking for the FORT-221, based on the Israeli CTAR-21, though any of the standard models would do.
There's differences in the below images (barrel length, muzzle brake, pic rails, sights), but the base gun's the same. You could possibly mirror the two sides for the majority of the details - as they're designed to be ambidextrous (and most are too small to notice the difference at 28mm anyway - barring perhaps the charging handle).
(https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/weapons/rifles/tavor-ctar-21.png)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/fd/bd/f7fdbd336b351a3aa62267a58c95a2de.png)
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/7c49b3d1-e142-47f4-bbbd-29c878e5143b/d51vtma-49b3adef-65f9-4c49-9884-1616c41f588f.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjphcHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvN2M0OWIzZDEtZTE0Mi00N2Y0LWJiYmQtMjljODc4ZTUxNDNiXC9kNTF2dG1hLTQ5YjNhZGVmLTY1ZjktNGM0OS05ODg0LTE2MTZjNDFmNTg4Zi5qcGcifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.JLAyVZAsR8OwP8-fjkbgsS7QQSXIuS3VBD5G3ZFRekk)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Interpolitex_2011_%28405-23%29.jpg/1920px-Interpolitex_2011_%28405-23%29.jpg)
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Shipways have a couple of IDF sets and additional sets of just Tavors but, as usual, they're not cheap.
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How long do you want them?
Note this is important as heroic guns are far larger than 'scale'
Warlord's for example are by my calcs generally around 1:45 ish scale.
What I've done in the past is draw it so it's in proportion then scale it to suit.
Small things like the trigger, catches and the hand guard details are highly unlikely to print anyway.
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Do you mean physically on the model? Going by Empress' figures their AK-74 is 1.8mm long (943mm), and Steyr AUG is 1.6 (790mm), so a CTAR-21 at 640mm would probably come out around 1.26mm long. Or there abouts.
Empress is what I'm using for most of my moderns. They're not "true-scale" like Spectre, or Heroic like The Assaut Group. They seem to be around 1/52nd, or a smidge bigger. Though its probably better, and simpler, to err on the larger side of things where necarry - for the sake of the gun's not being too short for potentially anatomy issues with any sculpts. You probably know more about how Empress scale things than me - though you may just stick to contracting for their vehicles.
With how short the barrels are at least breakages probably won't be so much of an issue as is a concern with the smaller scale guns out there. Really just a nub with a muzzle brake attached. :)
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Do you mean 12.6mm or are you looking at 1:300! lol
I only do vehicles for now :)
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Started on it before work. No pics yet but later ;)
The barrels will be fragile, so it might be a case of overscaling them a bit.
The other thing I've done in the past is increase the xz scale by 20%. This makes them chunkier but not longer, it's not obvious. Can sort that in the slice and try both ;)
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Sorry, I meant foot. I thought we were talking about 1/1 scale here. I'm looking for reenactment props/ something to carry to look threatening when the power goes out and we're fighting over water in 1-2 weeks. ;)
Have you designed guns before, or has it been all vehicles and artillery? There's good work in doing the masters for scale weapons from what I've heard.
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I did the Lanchester SMGs and shotguns, plus the EM2s... If that counts lol
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For one of your weird WWII projects I take it? :)
It was funny in one of Forgotten Weapons recent videos where there was a comment from one of the British armourers after firing the EM2 called it a load of dreck. So much for the alt-histories. Still, they looked cooler than the FN FAL. :P
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It was more about the rounds than the guns.
Anyway the Brit SA80 wasn't much better!
Anyone who has fired it will recognise:
"Rifle fires one or two more rounds..."
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Yes the Lanchester was to arm my Dieppe Naval Shore observation party. I needed two lol. Only did it because it was cool 8)
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It was the 7.62 version they were testing (something about the 280 ammunition being held at a different site and there being too much paperwork involved to pull even a few rounds from the system).
I believe in the discussion the critisms were over the trigger and overly complex internal mechanisms. Rather than having a bar running from trigger to the firing mechanism, they instead just made the system so convoluted that it took up the whole space instead. Though it was also said that the early FN Fals also had their issues, so they would have been sorted out if the thing had gone into production.
Tsk, and I still have friends who swear by the A1 SA80. Thing is they either manned a gun in the back of a truck all day, or were in the artillery, so never had to use the thing much. ::)
Anyway, well I think we'd both rather collect figures which are cool rather than your run of the mill infantrymen. Which probably isn't great for finding storage for any of this junk. I'm turning a two level house in a bungalo right now so I can fit more terrain in a box. :D
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It was the 7.62 version they were testing (something about the 280 ammunition being held at a different site and there being too much paperwork involved to pull even a few rounds from the system).
Imagine firing an original M16 rebored for 7.62mm X 51mm.
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They only went for the 7.62 model as that's what the Americans were forcing on them. The plan had been to use the intermediate 280 catridge. It was politics which killed the project - with Churchill preferring the Fal, and the Americans insisting on the calibur - only for them to abandon it and go with the M16. Forgotten Weapons did mention that about 2 of them did see combat trials in the Malayan Emergency IIRC.
Still, for anyone doing alt-history WWII games they really aught to be using the EM1 (the FG42 based one) - if that (even then you'd be ignoring the whole process of deveoping a firearm). Eyes up Clockwork Goblin with their EM2, AKM / RPK armed models. * :P
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How is that?
What sight?
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That's already much better than what I'd find acceptable. :)
The handguard has a series of angled cuts in it. Not sure how they would appear at this scale, but they're present on all the models of Tavor I've seen if they're doable.
If you're looking for sights then a red dot would work. That first link I posted has a 360 view of the Fort-221 which may be useful.
https://victorcg.artstation.com/projects/0qd6K
(https://i1.wp.com/euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/12cf565b18960d51aed160c52f4e89a3_01.jpg)
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lol no chance. You are already down to 0.1mm in places. The slashes would need to be pretty large to show up.
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Looks like the 'slashes' would be invisible at more than a few feet anyway.
I could use a few of these myself - though what I really need are AK-12's and other more unusual Russian weapons for my mob wars games!
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That's fair. The handguards would be mostly covered up by the figure's hands anyway. :)
Just to reiterate here, thanks for all the work Rich. I'm floored that you'd even consider this. This has been an idea I've had in my head for years, and so far badgering the odd company to help me out's gone nowhere. :P
Radio Dish Dash's Ultracombat figures look like they have AK-12s. Though at 28mm just replacing the upper handguard on a figure with an AK-74 with some rails may be sufficient. Some of the Spectre figures probably have AK-12s as well.
Meanwhile I completely forgot that I wanted to make a few figures armed with bullpup AKs. They'd be a hell of a lot simpler for me to make than a Tavor of course (just do them like the real thing by cutting up a plastic AK's receiver. Hmn, if I had many of those left now that Warlord's no longer selling those Wargames Factory spec ops sprues).
(https://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/as09/ots14_03.jpg)
(https://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/as68/vepr2.jpg)
(https://modernfirearms.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/malyk.jpg)
(OK the last one's made be a non-state arsenal, so they at least tried to make the thing not look like so much of a bodge. Don't get me started on the craft produced ones out there... :P)
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Cheers for the tip on Ultracombat. I'll have a little look at them :D
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The magazine angle on that last one looks a bit odd (for a Bauhaus Corporation magazine angle of odd).
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I'm assuming that the Groza is chambered for 9x39, Vepr is using 5.45x39 and IPI Malyuk (last one) is the 7.62x39 variant. So they all have different magazines.
The AK 103's chambered for the same round as the Malyuk. If you can picture the initial part of the magazine being cut off due to the firearm's body then it may appear to have a more pronounced curve than it actually has perhaps.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f2/30/1b/f2301b2687125615cf7bdfd9531f9da8.jpg)
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printing this morning
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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
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Well Rich you're helping me get back on my way to working on more of my moderns. :)
(Not that I don't have two posts for those WWII and WWWII threads written awaiting photographs too)
I take it that with something so small the print time's relatively short? Only like a week and a half, maybe two? ;)
With the money I've been spending on 3D prints lately I aught to just go ahead and buy a printer. Sorting out the file's been my main stumbling block. And my computer's broken, so I don't think I have a rig to go about making them myself (I'm assuming that the process isn't far off of making meshes for video games - with accounting for that it'll be a physical object that needs to be printed being a main concern).
Maybe I'll take the leap eventually and go from doing the physical building to doing it electronically like you did Rich H. :)
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My 7 year old mid spec gaming laptop is generally ok, it chuggs a bit sometimes but it rarely actually crashes. I had to leave it overnight the other week to stitch 22000 surfaces together on an imported file (T-72m) but it got there in the end!
The rifles are relatively quick, I print them pointing up tilted back at around 45 to minimize supports. The only support needed is under the butt so it minimises damage on support removal.
First attempt failed (glitched file produced a nightmarish horror) but I'm trying again. It's about a two hour print due to the other stuff on the build plate. I've done a few at 100% and a few at +20% in the xy plane to beef them up a bit (fatter barrels and so on)
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They are very tiny...
Could be sharper but I didn't do a great job of cleaning them TBH. I think it's probably too short, same problem I had with the EM2. Probably needs to be 20% bigger on top of this.
The original guns are extremely thin and to he handguards didn't print
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Wow!
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My gaming laptop conked out last year, and I've not yet put together the funds to buy a £700 new Motherboard (bloody integrated graphics cards!). Next time I sell stuff off I'll see about getting some warranty for £300. :P
Yeah, I see what you mean with how sharp the print is. Is that based on the print time, or the curing process? Regardless, I can agree that the amount of detail is fine for a 28mm figure.
How does it scale up with a figure?
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It's the cleanup, my solvent need changing. It's fine for larger things with less detail but this is tiny. I'll print a few more scaled up to 120/140/140.
They are very small, I'd suggest too small for heroic minis.
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Heh, its just difficult to tell how large it is as we all know that you have notoriously large hands Richard. ;)
My modern figures are mostly Empress. So yeah, they tend to be on the taller end of 28mm - but with slimmer proportions. So the rifles wouldn't need to be Warlord scale if that's what you mean. Though I guess it comes down to what looks "right" as opposed to the things being perfectly sized to the real thing. My measurements are based on how Empress scaled their rifles - however they may have fudged the proportions a bit themselves.
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Empress figure
Warlord Sten
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That looks about right to me. The Tavor has a long distance from the butt to the trigger. If it were scaled up further then it may wind up that its too long as part of the butt would need cut off for the figure to shoulder one properly.
If you do one slightly larger then it may wind up looking the same to me of course. So long as the thing can be shouldered and be short enough for the model to get its hand around the trigger then it would be fine.
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This may be a "how to suck eggs" but is the pistol grip to butt distance a good scaling distance?
I know that a number of weapons have adjustable butt length (stop sniggering at the back), but most figures will have a "standard" position butt.
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Yes, it's easiest to pick an existing weapon and make it match. I did that with the Lanchesters so it meant I could use the Sten gun arms.
The problem is the most weapons are beefier to make them stronger so they are distorted. The empress M16 is bang on 1:56 in length as it happens. (18mm). The warlord STG44 was 1:43.
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The distance between the butt and trigger appears to be similar to the Sten, and longer than the figure's elbow to its hand. Which seems correct to me. If I had the choice I'd rather have 1/56 scaled rifles - as ideally even if they are a smidge too small I could get around that by having the figures just wear thicker jackets.
You're not looking to make a mould right Rich? So breakages aren't as much of a concern - the figure's would have the rifles to their chests, covered by their right arm and with their left hand close to tje barrel. ::)
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Just prints. I've a print prepared with one at +20% see if that looks better, tbh it might just be my perspective that they are too small.
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Maybe. I'm coming off of Offensive Miniatures and Spectre, which are about as small as they come. :)
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I prefer the larger but I'm used to warlord guns!
Bottom is 1:56
Mid is 1:56 +20% in yz to make it chunkier
Top is +20% all over
I'm thinking for your purposes the middle one but expanded a bit more in yz to make it chunkier still (it's still very thin) this will have a side benefit of making the detail larger too.
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The top one does look a bit large - particularly the hanguard, which would stick out from beneath a model's hand in a noticeable way to me. The models will be viewed from the front typically, so the width isn't so much of an isse. Its the length which will throw off any sculpts.
Of course you have to bare in mind that the alternative's me waiting on White Dragon coming out with something years from now... ::)
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Ok no probs.
Just finished the Chieftain so going to start the print this evening so there will be room for guns around it
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There's some IDF with Tavors on Shapeways, maybe get them resized??
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That "flakpanzer" E-100 with the hundred StG-44s in place of its barrel comes to mind. :D
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How many did you need? I've got 20 done
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Christ. :D
I was thinking just a squad's worth - plus if you had spare a few more to use as scatter on personnel carriers. But if you have more then I'd glady take them. Or I suppose some others may have an interest. :)
Tsk, but if you make enough you'll have me tempted to go ahead and replace all the AKs in my platoon with the things. Nah, Rich that should be enough for what I'll be using them for. I was looking to just mix in a few in with what I already have for a bit of visual disonance with all the old AKs.
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Drop me a message and I'll post them.
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The Tavors have arrived today. And I can see what you mean Richard about increasing their thickness. :)
Size wish they're fine. They'd even perhaps me a smidge smaller if you're looking to be 100% realistic. As they are they aught to work with some figures that I can sculpt. Probably too small to just lop off one of Wargames Factory's SA80's butts and fix on just the front of the gun (you'd need to increase the proportions by a good bit to manage that).
I'll see when I can fit a test sculpt into my schedule (between painting toilets and plastering walls ...in miniature of course), then have a post in my own modern thread once its done.
Thanks again Richard, you've been just great doing all this. :D
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No probs.
As for size... You have me the dimensions lol
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We don't talk about how long I spent trying to scale an E-100 print to match Warlord's 1/56th scale Maus... ::)