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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Historiker on June 19, 2020, 07:41:42 PM
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Dear ladies and chaps of this honoured virtual place of exchange and merriment, I present to you: a Wargamer´s Dilemma.
Or rather in less fanciful language: Have you ever considered starting a GW / mainstream game just because it is commonly played around your area?
So here's the background:
I live in a rather large city, so there should be - and are - a few wargamers about. Still as our beloved hobby to this day has not yet penetrated mainstream society and is still somewhat of a niche it is not always easy to actually find these people and / or organize events (me not being on Facebook or other Social Media might contribute to this).
This problem is enhanced by the decline of the Local Friendly Gaming Store - a type of location almost nonexistent in my city (a few roleplaying shops carry minis, but mostly because it is somewhat expected for any "nerdy" establishment).
As a consequence of this I have in the past mostly relied on "building" gaming groups, resorting to friends, colleagues and random encounters, but as anyone having done the same can tell you: these enterprises are seldom successful in the long run. On top of that this approach is quite costly as one usually has to buy and build the stuff for the potential players.
I currently mostly play Frostgrave because it is very easy to introduce and teach to people and even here the aspect of keeping track of the records is too much for most of my boardgame-acquaintances. Yes, boardgames are fun for our "normal" friends...but you know how it is: Wargaming is a very special joy in itself!
The few fellow wargamers I met so far have proven to be great companions when it comes to building and painting (all of them being better hobbyists than me) but alas we tend to play different systems (I tried forcing myself to play Saga but I can't stand the mechanisms).
But then, there is always GW. GW shops and players can be found everywhere! Back in the Priestley-an days of Warhammer Fantasy Battles I would have gladly partaken but nowadays...I don't know!
So here's the question: Would you ever consider playing a Mainstream / Games Workshop game simply because there is a readily available playerbase? If so: Which system did you find most enjoyable?
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No, I would not play GW just to defer. Least of all 40K which aesthetics I detest. But as it happens I really like ME SBG; the miniatures are very pretty and the rules are fun and action oriented.
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Yes, that game seems to be very much "of the old school" (also a Priestley game!). The original minis were created by the Perrys and are just wonderful!
Nowadays the game is part of the Specialist Games Section, correct? I probably will ask the staff of the local shop whether anyone still plays it there. Have not seen it being played whenever I bought a pot of Contrast paint or such thing.
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Dead ladies and chaps...
I've not been very well this last eighteen months, but I ain't quite dead yet. lol
I don't really think about player bases as I always game with the same small group of friends. My best mate is really into his Sci-Fi and Fantasy (which I mockingly dub his "childish nonsense"), while I prefer more historical games. I do not recall a scenario where we both worked on the same project. When he wants to play his stuff, he provides everything (excepting the odd piece of my scenery here and there). Likewise when I have a hankering to play a particular game I have to put on the entire game. Thus we "force" the other to enjoy each other's preferred genres, which we are both happy to do because we love gaming and more than half the fun is simply the social occasion.
We have a third friend who contributes only his presence. He is not a modeller or a painter and never puts on a game, but he is happy to play whatever the other two of us are putting on. Then there is my nephew, who is a painter and is gaming mad. He will play anything I ask him to, and is always telling me about this game or that game that he wants me to play with him as soon as he has finished his project and it is ready. So far that has not happened yet. He is a a common wargaming type in that he tends to move on to the next project before he finishes the one he is on.
So in summary, this is not a dilemma that has ever come up. In my circle, if you want to play a particular genre or system you are entirely responsible for everything, from the buying of the rules to the collecting and preparing of the figures. That's just how we roll, as our tastes differ wildly but we like playing with each other. Would I do what you suggest if things were different? I don't know... maybe. I suppose you could say I already do. Whatever my mates want to play I'm happy to play with them, as long as they don't expect me to actually do any of the hard work.
Unlike dear Hammers, I love the 40K lore and aesthetic, and it also holds a place in my heart as the first game I ever played (back in the Rogue Trader era). But I have no idea what ME SBG may be, and would appreciate someone filling me in on that. Please indulge me a little, I have had brain surgery (which is damn convenient sometimes, when you have to plead ignorance on a subject you feel you should know something about ;))
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Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game. Formerly known as Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game.
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Of course! I knew that! Unfortunately the part of my brain that was storing that piece of information is currently sitting in a jar in a teaching hospital somewhere in Edgbaston. Hammers is right. The figures in that range are lovely (well, mostly - the Perry ones are anyway) .
Thank you! :)
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@ Plynkes:
Thank you for making me aware of that embarrassing typo!
Since our hobby has, let me say it like this, a certain misbalance making it easier to find more male players I fully encourage all genders to take part in it - the more the merrier! Therefore again: Please excuse that embarrassing typo!
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Interesting dilemma and one I almost exactly as you layed out found myself in last year upon returning to the hobby after 20 years.
The conclusion I came to was No, I wont play 40k.
I got some of the new Primaris crap as I had never painted Space Marines, even back when I played Games Workshop games in the 90s. The nostalgia quickly melted away for me as I realised that the GW of old with its overlookable faults had become a corporate monster with no soul.
I really love the Grim Dark lore, and the old world fantasy lore which was imploded and shelved in favour of a dumbed down "product". When miniatures and rules systems are designed with profit first Im out, I just couldnt do it.
I live in rural Ireland. There are zero hobbyists within a hundred kilometres. In Dublin there are only a small number of GW players. My options? Well I have gotten into frostgrave because the fantasy and quick learn quick play appealed to my wife. Its great that we both enjoy that game. I unfortunately have realised though that I just wont have anyone to play Bolt Action, Saga, Pikemans Lament or Black powder etc with.
It doesnt stop me continuing with those projects. I have decided to collect 2 opposimg forces for each period, so at the moment that means Gaelic Irish AND Tudor English for 16th Century, Late war Germans and U.S Airborne for Bolt Action. The best I can do with that is try and convert my wife and some of my friends to Historicals. Its also a great excuse to order and paint double the miniatures too!
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Regarding the Middle Earth game: Some of the newer Middle Earth figures are looking quite strange (looking at you "Gimli and Legolas on a Horse" , but the old ones are very pretty.
A few months ago a someone on YouTube produced a very fine interview with Priestley about the game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X71eQops6mw
I shall be looking into this... but I fear there are not that many players around!
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@Eoin:
Although I am based in a big city (living in rural Ireland sounds lovely, by the way!) I can absolutely relate.
So far my approach has been the same: Whenever I was interested in a game I collected and - sometimes ::) - painted two small-ish armies.
Interesting that you mention Primaris as I bought one squad as a test and found whilst painting them that there really was something missing. It might be, as several have commented before, that the "satirical" aspect of the grimdark setting has been replaced by an interpretation which takes itself seriously. Many seem to like it though...
What could be interesting (but potentially also very disappointing) is the new "The Old World" but that is very far off. Really only a statement of intentions and a brand-name at this point. What I consider "THE" Old World is inherently connected to the GW of old but the new thing may yet be a different but cool product. We will see.
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I am another who would not play 40K or whatever passes for Warhammer Fantasy Battle these days just to fit in with the local scene.
However I will more than happily play Mordheim or Inquisitor or Space Hulk (the 3 best things GW have ever put out IMHO...all without Priestley).
Maybe you would have more success with an established player base as those games will not be seen as trying to tempt them away from the safety of the GW hobby.
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I am another who would not play 40K or whatever passes for Warhammer Fantasy Battle these days just to fit in with the local scene.
However I will more than happily play Mordheim or Inquisitor or Space Hulk (the 3 best things GW have ever put out IMHO...all without Priestley).
Maybe you would have more success with an established player base as those games will not be seen as trying to tempt them away from the safety of the GW hobby.
I think Priestley was also involved creating Mordheim but you are right in that it is a GREAT game. A bit cumbersome rules-wise but that can be remedied. With Frostgrave being so popular I have yet to persuade someone to give Mordheim another got but some day I will ;)
Very interesting to see that so far the opinion here seems to be that joining a mainstream game just for connecting to that player base is not a great idea. I tend to see it like that as well as interest and passion for a project are what drives me when starting a new one. I will keep thinking about my dilemma!
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Ill jump in and go against the grain and say that yes, you should look into GW games if your options (and fellow war gamers) are limited.
GW has done a good job in building scalability into their game systems. They have number of smaller, skirmish level games that allow you to play in either the 40K or Age of Sigmar worlds with a relatively low investment.
For 40K there is Kill Team (about one squad of specialists per side) as well as Necromund and the new edition is supposed to play well at smaller points levels (think a small patrol size force). for Age of Sigmar there are a number of skirmish type games as well as a few war game/board game hybrids such as Shade Spire and War Cry (again, very much by a box of figures and go at it). They recently republished Warhammer Quest if you need that dungeon crawl itch scratched (40K also has a version called Blackstone Fortress).
In terms of finding like minded individuals you can't go wrong checking out your local GW. What's nice is that you don't have to drop major cash on a full army to play with them. I'd go in, make some friends and connections and introduce them to the wide world of war gaming.
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Many thanks for that input as well!
In fact one of the reasons that made me even consider testing out the waters of current-GW was the announcement that 40K 9th Edition will allow for smaller games of 500 points.
For some strange reason I have no qualms buying lots of Roman legionaries but the thought of painting lots of current 40K does not appeal to me. Sometimes wargaming-logic can be funny ;)
The second reason is that I find the idea of the 40K-APP... interesting. This being also a personal paradox. I usually love this hobby for it being very much not relying on digital technology and being a quite traditional hands-on thing.
Your idea of joining a community to get to know more people and potentially introduce them to other games at a later point is a cunning plan :D
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It's what I did. My group is very 40K heavy but I've introduced them to Frostgrave, Gasslands, and soon Oathmark.
We still play a lot of 40K (which I don't mind, I've always loved the game) but I'm leading them out into the wider world.
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Nope I would have no interest in that.
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Yes I would for some of them yes. If they are nice enough folks! Age of sigmar probably never.
*Edit*
Location (you never know):
China
Guangdong Province
Zhuhai City (next to Macau and across the bay from Hong Kong)
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It might be an idea if you said which city you live in and what games you would ideally like to play? You never know there might be an as yet undiscovered opponent viewing this thread suited to your requirements rather than having to compromise with a GW game?
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It might be an idea if you said which city you live in and what games you would ideally like to play? You never know there might be an as yet undiscovered opponent viewing this thread suited to your requirements rather than having to compromise with a GW game?
This. I live in a fairly small town, but there are a good number of wargamers - when I moved here I found the group I still play with through a post on TMP.
Regarding GW games - I'm not generally a fan, even though lots of our group are. But I have enjoyed Kill Team, and it is dead easy to get into as a force is just a handful of troops. But generally I have found that if you aren't keen on a game / period then you want want to build troops for it. I was like that with Bolt Action, liked painting up some British Airborne, but once we played a game it just felt a silly set of rules, with weird ranges to unit footprints, since then that force has languished awaiting finishing off.
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I am currently based in beautiful Hamburg (Germany). Lovely City.
As to the games I am most interested in:
Narrative warband skirmish games (This is not a Test, Mortheim, Frostgrave)
Small-scale skirmish wargames akin to the old Warhammer Fantasy (though that wasn't even small-scale). This day it would most likely be Warlords of Erehwon (just ordered it) or Lord of the Rings.
I have other games and minis lying around, like most of us, but this is what I am most interested in right now.
Just today found a copy of Warhammer Fantasy 6th Edition at a "last day" event of a closing down shop (very sad as it was one of the last independent ones if not the last one left). Might even give that a try!
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Yes, if I had to. I bought the Deathwatch Overkill boxed game for the minis a few years ago and, as a matter of fact, I am currently picking away at the Blackstone Fortress minis in anticipation of actually playing the game one day. :o lol
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Without seeming indecisive I will add an addendum to my first reply post,
I do see merit in what others have said regarding G.Ws smaller or skirmish games. These seem popular, have a large player base or may be attractive to 40k players who you can convert to the particular game(kill team, Necromunda, Aeronautica etc).
I thoroughly enjoyed Necromunda 2nd edition in the 90s(played Ratskins) and I actually would play again today. An entire gang is about 25 euro/20GBP/30 USD which is very good value.
I suppose my aversion to GW is their corporate practices and I refuse to pay for a new codex and rulebook every 2 years.
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Thanks for the addendum!
I actually bought into New-Cromunda when it came out (totally going with the Hype cause I am a fan of Mortheim) and although there was some good ideas there I was appalled by the business practices regarding such a small, specialist-product:
Instead of one big book one needed to buy the supplements for all gangs (because they changed the core game-rules) and even those books were quickly outdated / devalued.
And then there was the whole issue with the card-driven strategies (you effectively had to buy decks, like in Underworld...)
... I quickly became fed up with these very transparent grabs for my wallet and sold / gave away most of my New-Cromunda stuff.
I heard that they put all the supplements into one big book now, but then again they continue to release further supplements regarding the gangs (not, as it should be, the whole game!).
In my opinion either one should keep supplements very gang specific or create whole-game supplements - this mix of the categories effectively made everything into a core product and seemed... unnecessary to say the least.
Still, new Necromunda has and probably deserves a lot of fans, it just wasn't for me.
Bottom line is: with GW I do tend to have a good hard look at the business-model behind the publications before I even consider buying. Which is also one the reasons for this thread :D
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I'm sure there were some Hamburg based chaps on here in the past - have you considered a thread like "is there anywhere to play in/near Hamburg".
I'm in a small town on the Yorkshire coast, Scarborough, but (before lockdown at least) we have 4 local clubs that I'm aware of. If (when lockdown is over) you are in the area on a Monday or Thursday you are more than welcome to visit the one I generally go to. We have about 75 members, in the past year only 4 of them have played 40k. A few play Bloodbowl. A few play 40k epic (whatever it may be called). A few play a Necromunda variant based in the old west (El Necromundo). There are a few Burrows and Badgers players, also Bolt Action, By Fire and Sword, Heroquest, Sharp Practice, and Blood and Plunder. There are about a dozen boardgame players and a similar number of D&D players.
I'm spoilt for choice but I wouldn't give in to GW.
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I also run a local after-school club. before lockdown I had 15 participants aged 11-16. Not a single GW player amongst them. Actually, only 2 have actually heard of GW, and about half were complete non-gamers before they started. In the autumn term we played "Empire of the Dead" (Victorian vampire hunting), but in the spring term we were half-way through a French & Indian War campaign (complete with old-school hidden map movement) with tabletop actions using Osprey's Rebels & Patriots.
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Given that Tactica happens every year in Hamburg I really doubt that there is a shortage of gamers in your area. Its one of the best shows in mainland Europe and is jam packed every year.
My recommendations for finding players
1. Tell folks you are looking for players and be open about location, genre, games etc - you can broadcast this here, via TMP (urgghhh) by a blog etc
2. Crucially and essential: VET every one you meet before introducing to your games group and on neutral ground - there are odd chaps out there ::) and I mean odder than the usual LAF visitors
3. Be prepared to do everything if you want to startt a new period/game ie terrain/figures etc
good luck
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Great advice here, thanks!
Yes, Tactica is a joy every year. This year I could not make it due to exams and then there came the Corona situation :? Here's to hoping that next year's Tactica will be just as great as usual!
But yes, I have already started "building" and finding groups and I hope these will pick up speed once things turn back to normal. Unfortunately the current situation affects our hobby quite a bit (as it does everything... except maybe PC gaming, which I don't do).
The vetting advice actually made me smile as I have had some very memorable - yet under no circumstances to be repeated - experiences in the past (other cities) :D
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There are plenty of non 40k gamers in Hamburg, I was there for 4 years and gamed with Grimm, Frank Bauer and some others - though not very often as work tended to clash with game nights.
You should be able to find them through the Tactica website.
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@Historiker:
You should maybe consider opening a thread on the sweetwater forum. I know lots of folks on there from Hamburg.
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I would not play rules which do not interest me (I prefer not to mention names of rulesets it could sound derogatory) although I sometimes accept to try some rules that I do not know.
Otherwise my usual group of players is scattered at a maximum distance of 1h / 1h30 car drive from my home, we organise afternoon games easily enough... But we often play in local events and games festivals (where we can have very large tables), these have been cancelled in the last months. :'(
You should find other gamers in / around your town if you ask on forums? There may be local gaming groups pages on FB too?
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My mate round the corner and his son (and increasingly my son) are invested in 40k and AoS. I have only token forces of both but I am more than happy to be loaned some figures and play with them as they are friends and I enjoy their company. In return they have tried other games that I am more interested in (we have all enjoyed Frostgrave in particular). I would like to try some historical games one day too, and I think my friend would give it a go (although I would need to provide the rules and figures).
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@Historiker:
You should maybe consider opening a thread on the sweetwater forum. I know lots of folks on there from Hamburg.
Thanks! I actually had / have an account there and might probably do so once the Corona Situation has improved enough to allow for normal social interactions.
This thread was only secondary about actually finding people but rather to discuss the thought of "would you start playing a system just for the player base" - but thank you anyway, as of course finding more people to play other games with is the true solution to the dilemma :)
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Many thanks for all the diverse and wonderful replies - such a great community here!
I have now made up my mind and will focus more on finding people I want to play "my" systems with rather than starting a more popular system just to find more players.
As concerning GW I will say this: If they ever re-do Mortheim, I will give it a try and I might have a look at their "The Old World" Project. So far however it will be Frostgrave and Warlords of Erehwon for me, which I consider the successors of the classics (in spirit, not necessarily rules-wise).
Every advice was much appreciated, thank you! Happy hobby-ing to you all and stay safe!