Lead Adventure Forum

Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 12:17:36 AM

Title: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 12:17:36 AM
Hello all. For some of my games I want to depict portions of the table as part of a forest. To do this I have taken a strip of brown felt and added a little bit of paint to it then placed my trees on it. While it works mechanically I am not satisfied with it aesthetically. I'd love to see some of the solutions you bright chaps have come up with.

(https://i.imgur.com/7fgjIAe.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aHUTut9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NByEL1N.jpg)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: NickNascati on 09 November 2020, 02:06:44 AM
That is pretty much what I do.  A piece of brown or green felt with a few tress scattered around.  You have to compromise,  too many trees and it becomes difficult to move figures through the area.  I’m pretty sure that is the route most gamers take.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: N.C.S.E on 09 November 2020, 07:41:30 AM
I fear that's the best you can do really without losing all flexibility. Probably could add more trees, but pretty soon you'd run into the problems Nick describes. Possibly include more logs and other randomness rather than just trees?
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Roo on 09 November 2020, 08:11:43 AM
How about a more solid lines of trees and scrub at the edge of your brown felt on the non forest side (just for clarity).  Movement in the wood is simpler and from both table edges you get the feeling of a mass of trees.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Dr. Zombie on 09 November 2020, 08:25:10 AM
I think that what you have done is the most practical. If you want to improve on it add som bushes and all manner of scatter as well. Also your trees are a bit on the small side for 28mm miniatures.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on 09 November 2020, 09:09:12 AM
We usually mark forest out with a border of lichen, then lob lots of singly based trees in the area. Just shimmy the trees around to allow access to the figures/movement.
There are some fairly decent model railway trees available cheaply from China if you want to bulk out the woods a bit.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: carlos marighela on 09 November 2020, 11:00:33 AM
I vaguely remember seeing the use of 2D printed cardboard trees some years back. It lacks the aesthetics of decent, well made, terrain but it does have the utility of clearly marking out a forest or wooded area whilst not taking up as much room. It’s the canopy that takes up the space and gets in the way with troop placement. Not so much if the trees are a couple of millimetres wide.

Personally I’m more inclined to stick with lichen borders and scattered trees. You’ll need something to mark boundaries for line of sight purposes anyway.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: has.been on 09 November 2020, 11:05:18 AM
One possible that would look nicer:-
Have two outlines for your woods, one in 5mm MDF & one in cloth etc.
The MDF one will be on table & will look like a proper wood. The cloth one
is kept off table. If/when a unit moves into the wood it is removed from the
table & placed on the cloth. You can include local rules about when/if they
can emerge from the wood.

Warning note. It has been known for a commander to completely forget
that the unit is hiding in the wood. On one notable game there was a
heartfelt cry from a WW2 British commander who only remembered his
PIAT team when packing away. For nearly half the game a Tiger tank
had been backed up to that particular wood.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 11:54:45 AM
Generally it sounds like I'm on the right path. Any suggestions for improving the forest ground look? I think that might help the atheistic a lot more then what I am currently using.

How about a more solid lines of trees and scrub at the edge of your brown felt on the non forest side (just for clarity).  Movement in the wood is simpler and from both table edges you get the feeling of a mass of trees.

We usually mark forest out with a border of lichen, then lob lots of singly based trees in the area. Just shimmy the trees around to allow access to the figures/movement.
There are some fairly decent model railway trees available cheaply from China if you want to bulk out the woods a bit.

I like this idea and have several bags of lichen I can try it with.

One possible that would look nicer:-
Have two outlines for your woods, one in 5mm MDF & one in cloth etc.
The MDF one will be on table & will look like a proper wood. The cloth one
is kept off table. If/when a unit moves into the wood it is removed from the
table & placed on the cloth. You can include local rules about when/if they
can emerge from the wood.

Warning note. It has been known for a commander to completely forget
that the unit is hiding in the wood. On one notable game there was a
heartfelt cry from a WW2 British commander who only remembered his
PIAT team when packing away. For nearly half the game a Tiger tank
had been backed up to that particular wood.

An interesting idea that might work on smaller playing areas but could be problematic when your table is 6x4 and the forest takes up 1/3-1/2 of it.

Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Rick F on 09 November 2020, 01:19:47 PM
Like this :) but it's expensive, time consuming and takes up all the space in your deployment bag. Stuck for trees, on a budget or stuck in the middle of nowhere on deployment, I'll generally use a dark green piece of felt and randomly put trees on like you already have.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 02:22:10 PM
Like this :) but it's expensive, time consuming and takes up all the space in your deployment bag. Stuck for trees, on a budget or stuck in the middle of nowhere on deployment, I'll generally use a dark green piece of felt and randomly put trees on like you already have.

I love that. I wont be playing much if any on this deployment, just painting. I'm more asking because if Feb, after I get back, I'll be running a Muskets & Tomahawks 2 demo game and really want a knock out board. So looks like I need more and bigger individual trees and some based together in line, as well as a bag or two of lichen.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Digits on 09 November 2020, 02:23:19 PM
Buy a railway backscene depicting forest.  That way, you can get away with few trees on the table looking like a glade in a larger forest.  Very atmospheric.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 02:55:13 PM
Buy a railway backscene depicting forest.  That way, you can get away with few trees on the table looking like a glade in a larger forest.  Very atmospheric.

Interesting idea but could limit table accessibility.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: has.been on 09 November 2020, 03:09:05 PM
Quote
An interesting idea that might work on smaller playing areas but could be problematic when your table is 6x4 and the forest takes up 1/3-1/2 of it.

Even better. Divide your 'forest' into smaller 'woods' . These woods can be deployed:  separately, together or
with a gap between (represents tracks/ roads etc.). When you have a 'forest' (several 'woods' together) and
a unit moves into the wood, simply randomize (dice etc.) which is the next bit of wood they move into. They could
end up going round in circles, completely lost in the forest.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Billchuck on 09 November 2020, 03:24:02 PM
Another option is to make forest floor pieces, each with several tree trunks attached.  Then make forest canopy pieces to match the floor pieces, with clump foliage to show the treetops.  When a unit is under a piece of canopy, remove it so you can see the unit and move it around.  When it moves on, put the canopy piece back.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/6053-091120152255.jpeg)


(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/6053-091120152313.jpeg)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 03:49:23 PM
Another option is to make forest floor pieces, each with several tree trunks attached.  Then make forest canopy pieces to match the floor pieces, with clump foliage to show the treetops.  When a unit is under a piece of canopy, remove it so you can see the unit and move it around.  When it moves on, put the canopy piece back.

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/6053-091120152255.jpeg)


(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/6053-091120152313.jpeg)

I have been 3D printing these old growth tree trunks that might work great for something like this, though I could scale them down too.

(https://i.imgur.com/2d4I7gZ.jpg)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Billchuck on 09 November 2020, 04:06:39 PM
I have been 3D printing these old growth tree trunks that might work great for something like this, though I could scale them down too.

(https://i.imgur.com/2d4I7gZ.jpg)

Yeah, those would work great for this sort of thing.  For portability, you could use magnetic sheet on the forest floor and magnets or washers in the bottom of the trees.  That would help them stay in place on the table, but let the system break down into flat sheets and tree trunks for storage.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Elbows on 09 November 2020, 04:58:16 PM
Your solution is definitely the most common.  However, it's also easy to "spice it up" with some bushes, lichen, leaves, pebbles, sticks to represent downed trees, etc.  You can even spray paint or flock the mat used for your forest bases, etc.

If you had money to burn (and most of us don't!) you could even buy a smaller forested gaming mat and cut it up into various shapes, etc.

For larger scale games, I tend to use my 1" and 2" hills as the wooded portions of the table, just for ease of recognition.  Are you on the hill?  You're in the woods.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fjrk05g6X0c/X0Pv8FwdmJI/AAAAAAAAGEc/Ftf0bFXZQ1QmRgN0yplslpB7IzFLUZmLgCLcBGAsYHQ/s2016/118359718_10223860661608489_4165378525787803250_o.jpg)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Rick F on 09 November 2020, 05:19:09 PM
I love that. I wont be playing much if any on this deployment, just painting. I'm more asking because if Feb, after I get back, I'll be running a Muskets & Tomahawks 2 demo game and really want a knock out board. So looks like I need more and bigger individual trees and some based together in line, as well as a bag or two of lichen.
That set up was for Song of drums and tomahawks, but it works equally well for Muskets and tomahawks. It's very effective having the edge of the forest delineated by groups of 4 or 5 trees stuck together, then lots of individual trees, lichen and rocks in the middle that can be moved around whenever you like. But you knew that anyway :)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: fred on 09 November 2020, 06:23:02 PM
As others have said you are on the right lines. I’d certainly be adding more trees, but for Muskets and Tomahawks games, I see to recall it was almost easier to mark the clear areas, rather than the wooded areas!

I would work on the base, the brown felt is a bit plain, and as it covers lots of the table, it could look better. For smaller woods I uses rough ovals of MDF, covered in sand, and painted brown, then flocked with 2 or 3 shades of green flock. These look less intrusive on the table. For such a big area I might forgo the brown base cloth, and just show the edges of the woods, leaving your green base cloth to show through everywhere.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 09 November 2020, 06:26:50 PM
Your solution is definitely the most common.  However, it's also easy to "spice it up" with some bushes, lichen, leaves, pebbles, sticks to represent downed trees, etc.  You can even spray paint or flock the mat used for your forest bases, etc.

If you had money to burn (and most of us don't!) you could even buy a smaller forested gaming mat and cut it up into various shapes, etc.

For larger scale games, I tend to use my 1" and 2" hills as the wooded portions of the table, just for ease of recognition.  Are you on the hill?  You're in the woods.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fjrk05g6X0c/X0Pv8FwdmJI/AAAAAAAAGEc/Ftf0bFXZQ1QmRgN0yplslpB7IzFLUZmLgCLcBGAsYHQ/s2016/118359718_10223860661608489_4165378525787803250_o.jpg)

How do you keep your trees on the hills without falling off?

Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Hammers on 09 November 2020, 06:39:34 PM
Interesting thread.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Patrice on 09 November 2020, 07:21:17 PM
Polystyrene boards (made with terrain on them, or just under a cloth) and wire pins under the trees, so the trees can be stuck into the boards at will (through the terrain or cloth). If there are differently coloured areas on the boards (or cloth) it helps.

(http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/sk/Teiz-02-2020/100_1168.JPG)

This also works to pin trees on polystyrene hills.

Diversity can be added to the terrain with very small forest boards (with some trees glued on them) but it's more encumbering to carry.

Another option is to make forest floor pieces, each with several tree trunks attached.  Then make forest canopy pieces to match the floor pieces, with clump foliage to show the treetops.
:o Interesting idea... Yes it would work for some parts of a very dense forest or jungle...
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on 09 November 2020, 07:59:24 PM
In the way back when, for 6mm I used the lichen method mentioned above.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: FramFramson on 09 November 2020, 08:11:30 PM
Instead of a brown or green felt map, one thing to try would be a forest-floor mat, either heavily flocked with leaf cover or something printed. That way the space is visually busy and clearly indicates a forest while being freer for play.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Elbows on 10 November 2020, 01:24:04 AM
RACM,

If you're genuinely asking, my hills are flat - just steps of 1-2" upholstery foam.  The sacrifice made for easier gaming, though less attractive.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3JsHsPsXsTg/Xa3BzSm0HRI/AAAAAAAAFVI/Ee5M4nv-C24j8Vgvu37gnZSuC-RQ4KoOwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/OctChar2.png)

Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: racm32 on 10 November 2020, 12:22:04 PM
RACM,

If you're genuinely asking, my hills are flat - just steps of 1-2" upholstery foam.  The sacrifice made for easier gaming, though less attractive.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3JsHsPsXsTg/Xa3BzSm0HRI/AAAAAAAAFVI/Ee5M4nv-C24j8Vgvu37gnZSuC-RQ4KoOwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/OctChar2.png)

Sorry when I asked your picture hadn't loaded but when I looked later I saw it.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Elbows on 10 November 2020, 07:48:35 PM
Ah, okay.  Wasn't sure!  But yeah, there ya go - the old "stepped" hills wargaming-friendly hill.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 10 November 2020, 08:20:21 PM
Hey Elbows, reminds me of elevation lines on a military topographical map.... so attractive in that sense. Hooah!
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: warrenpeace on 11 November 2020, 12:51:37 AM
I recently got to use my friend's Cigar Box mat for a Pulp Alley game involving samurai & ninja. There was a part of the mat that had a woods, top down view of course, printed on it. There were also fields and dirt roads printed on the mat. We added some trees to the woods section to make it three dimensional, and it looks pretty good. Here are some images:

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/149-111120004307-49195820.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/149-111120004309-491961753.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/149-111120004311-49197363.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/149-111120004312-491982297.jpeg)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/149-111120004314-491991758.jpeg)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Elbows on 11 November 2020, 01:43:00 AM
Yeah, I'm a little ambivalent toward that style, but I see it's appeal.  I think we can agree we'd probably like some mats with "forest base" included, if not the trees themselves.  Sticks, dead leaves, roots, etc...something to place our trees on - but then the mat would look weird without trees.  Shame.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Harry Faversham on 11 November 2020, 06:07:05 AM
Don't fret not seeing the wood for the trees.
It can always look worse!!!

(https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/hm_bbpui/127729/t4l5uzlzxpm4ae4tfxqbg4fh1ldp7d4j.jpg)

 :-[
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: has.been on 11 November 2020, 06:45:45 AM
Harry, just get out a pair of scissors & trim those outlines into irregular shapes. Job done!
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Harry Faversham on 11 November 2020, 08:35:05 AM
Harry, just get out a pair of scissors & trim those outlines into irregular shapes. Job done!

By Jove, I think he's got it!
Why didn't I think of that!!!???

 ::)
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Patrice on 11 November 2020, 09:27:26 AM
Harry, just get out a pair of scissors & trim those outlines into irregular shapes. Job done!
By Jove, I think he's got it!
Why didn't I think of that!!!???

 lol ...Actually it would depend on the area and historical period...

If the land near the woods are ploughed fields, the farmers certainly wouldn't want irregular shapes on the fields edges.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: jon_1066 on 11 November 2020, 09:36:01 AM
Delineating the edge of the wood is key in my mind.  So concentrate all your available trees and lichen to mark the boundaries of the wood.

This is 6 mm but gives a good impression of the effect:
http://www.grandtacticalrules.com/html/gameboards.html (http://www.grandtacticalrules.com/html/gameboards.html)

So it delineates the forest space, hides the edge of any mat you use and practical to game (since you can place troops freely in the forest area.

You could combine it with general leaf litter, fallen branches and the odd stump so it is very clear what is wood and what is cleared.
Title: Re: How to depict forests?
Post by: Dr. Zombie on 11 November 2020, 10:22:48 AM
Another way to go is to have "negative" scenery. As I did here https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116997.msg1500597#msg1500597
All the table counted as jungle/forest except the river and the grass and boggy areas who were designated as open ground.

In a sense you model the open areas and have everything else be forest.