Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: traveller on November 10, 2020, 05:41:46 PM
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I am planning a project for the above mentioned topic and I am searching for sources and inspiration, especially what part of the action that is best suited for the tabletop. It was images like the ones below that pushed me over the top ;):
!. Attack on the front gate
2. The grand staircase
3. The garden
4. Something else...?
I just saw that WSS magazine 111 has a section on this, anyone seen it?
Grateful for any advice!
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRXxVG3w/5b2367e90dd849857da57587d9563ae7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnZRwm3f/Tuileries-Henri-Motte.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SY9g4wBr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2j2sRdm2/1792-Tuileriensturm-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3RfDm1m)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFfZ2F86/gardes-suisses.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Terrific prints,I can easily see how you became inspired :)
Your first and third suggestions would probably be the most practical in my opinion,looking forward to see what you come up with :)
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Thanks Romark! Yes, these prints really cries out to be re-created on the tabletop. I have a soft spot for the "last stand" type of scenarios and thanks to the new miniatures from Emperor Toad both the Swiss and the National Guard are now available in good quality 28mm. I guess I am leaning towards no 3 the garden with the big fountain but the others are also tempting....the table is maximum 120 x 240 cm so that is also a limitation...decisions, decisions... ???
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Yep,those minis look very nice :)
See what other feedback you get from other members,lots I hope :)
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Some great looking pictures there.
I’ve got WSS111 and the article on this didn’t impress me that much, the photos of figures in the terrain, look really odd, the figures look very static, and far too close together. Nothing like the drawings shown here.
I’ve not read through the article, but it comprises two linked scenarios, with stats for Sharpe Practise. One scenario in the courtyard, the other in the gardens.
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Thanks Fred,
good, I will order the magazine anyway and hope it can give some inspiration, the garden scenario sounds interesting!
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I would go for a very skirmish type scenario ..with the Swiss and the noble volunteers having the mission to resist until the royal family could escape..on the other hand there could be a random event with increasing possibility along the game that Gardes Nationales or treacherous Gardes Francaises could join the mob even with a field piece..on the opposite site a very scant possibility of the Swiss and Nobles defenders receiving inespected support from a few troopers of Royal Allmand Cavalry coming from their barracks
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A great idea for a mini campaign or linked scenarios! The terrain might become a deep rabbit hole... :D
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I read massacre of the Swiss Guard and immediately I think of the Vatican... this happens when you are roman...
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I would go for a very skirmish type scenario ..with the Swiss and the noble volunteers having the mission to resist until the royal family could escape..on the other hand there could be a random event with increasing possibility along the game that Gardes Nationales or treacherous Gardes Francaises could join the mob even with a field piece..on the opposite site a very scant possibility of the Swiss and Nobles defenders receiving inespected support from a few troopers of Royal Allmand Cavalry coming from their barracks
Great ideas! Have you seen any info on the numbers of noble volunteers that may have joined the fight together with the Swiss? Were there still Royal Allemand Cavalry in Paris at this point in time?
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I read massacre of the Swiss Guard and immediately I think of the Vatican... this happens when you are roman...
Don´t remind me of that...another stalled project :D
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=52686.0
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A great idea for a mini campaign or linked scenarios! The terrain might become a deep rabbit hole... :D
Well, I started to gather forces for this project many years ago and it is really the terrain that have held me back. The buildings are quite complicated and time consuming to construct and the gardens are a bit...flat... but I think I will settle for the latter anyway, the thought of hordes of Sans culottes storming forward towards the Swiss standing around the fountain is intriguing ;)
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Great ideas! Have you seen any info on the numbers of noble volunteers that may have joined the fight together with the Swiss? Were there still Royal Allemand Cavalry in Paris at this point in time?
my idea of scenario is partially historical cause if you play it as it happened is a no no situation with poor game appeal...during the Tuilleries assault the King and his familiy had already escaped to the Assemblée Nationale so the sacrifice of the Gardes Suisses was an unexpected or should i say vain episode of honour and the consequence also of an unexpected blast of rage from the mob..the Swiss and the Gentilhommes defended an empty palace maybe just a symbol...the nobles and retainers were about 200 they had little part in the fight and, contrary to the Swiss Gardes succeeded in abandoning the Tuilleries palace and gardens unsditurbed while the mob dwelled on the Swiss rounding up and executing the last ones that tried to surrender...among the defenders also some loyal Gardes Nationales de Paris above all officers...
The Royal Allmand of course did'nt show up...by this time they had been practically cancelled as they were now labelled "15ème de Cavalerie"...but i had the idea to consider them for a what if scenario because they had already charged at the beginning of the Revolution, and even in the Tuilleries Gardens, the Parisian mob ...and, together with the survivors of the Swiss Guards, many of them later joined the Royalist Armies of both Prince of Condé and later the Vendeans...so i have a certain simpathy for them ;)..being one the most iconic anti revolutionary elements...
just my thought but outside real big set up battles French Revolution has a certain pulp aspect that could be reproduded on table top skirmish or role-playing games even with few miniatures and Tuilleries could be such an example cause it's difficult, outside a skirmish what if game, to find an historical objective.
this French old series is not bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgUOVde-qs
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It certainly sounds like the WSS article would be worth getting as it very much looks at these ideas / scenarios
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I thought that the defining moment was when the King himself ordered the Swiss to cease firing as he wanted to spare the lives of the mob? The Swiss ordered arms and the Mob then promptly massacred them. Or is that not what happened?
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Fascinating project, I'll follow it with interest. :o
I sometimes went to walk in the Parc des Tuileries as a kid and teenager, I didn't know much then about this event, I only heard about it much time later.
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I thought that the defining moment was when the King himself ordered the Swiss to cease firing as he wanted to spare the lives of the mob? The Swiss ordered arms and the Mob then promptly massacred them. Or is that not what happened?
As described on: https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/attack-on-the-tuileries/
By dawn on August 10th, a crowd of several thousand people was massing outside the Tuileries. Newcomers arrived so quickly from the sections that according to one news report 25 people were killed in the crush. Most of the crowd were carrying some kind of weapon: guns, sabres, pikes, daggers, scythes, iron bars and pieces of wood.
After surveying the situation, the king concluded that it was impossible to defend the palace without slaughtering thousands of Parisians. Leaving orders with the guard, Louis and his family walked across the Tuileries garden and took refuge in the Legislative Assembly building.
Back inside the palace, rebellious soldiers and civilians breached the palace gates and poured into the Tuileries courtyard. Exactly happened next is a matter of dispute. Whatever the cause, members of the mob and advancing fédérés engaged in a pitched battle with the Swiss Guard. The Swiss held them off until around midday when their ammunition ran out and they were overrun.
Swiss Guards butchered
What followed was a scene of tremendous butchery. More than two-thirds of the Swiss Guard were slaughtered, many of them hacked to death by axe-wielding sans culottes. Heads were removed and displayed on pikes or kicked around for sport. Body parts were dismembered and waved around, then fed to dogs.
Hordes of women from the city’s underclass followed behind the advancing soldiers, stripping the corpses of Swiss Guardsmen of their uniforms and belongings, scything off the genitals and stuffing them into their mouths.
Courtiers and palace staff were not spared either. By the end of the day, some 650 Swiss Guards were dead, while the remaining 250 were captured, beaten and thrown into the city’s prisons. Four weeks later, almost all of the guards who survived the carnage of August 10th were killed during the September Massacres.
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my idea of scenario is partially historical cause if you play it as it happened is a no no situation with poor game appeal...during the Tuilleries assault the King and his familiy had already escaped to the Assemblée Nationale so the sacrifice of the Gardes Suisses was an unexpected or should i say vain episode of honour and the consequence also of an unexpected blast of rage from the mob..the Swiss and the Gentilhommes defended an empty palace maybe just a symbol...the nobles and retainers were about 200 they had little part in the fight and, contrary to the Swiss Gardes succeeded in abandoning the Tuilleries palace and gardens unsditurbed while the mob dwelled on the Swiss rounding up and executing the last ones that tried to surrender...among the defenders also some loyal Gardes Nationales de Paris above all officers...
The Royal Allmand of course did'nt show up...by this time they had been practically cancelled as they were now labelled "15ème de Cavalerie"...but i had the idea to consider them for a what if scenario because they had already charged at the beginning of the Revolution, and even in the Tuilleries Gardens, the Parisian mob ...and, together with the survivors of the Swiss Guards, many of them later joined the Royalist Armies of both Prince of Condé and later the Vendeans...so i have a certain simpathy for them ;)..being one the most iconic anti revolutionary elements...
just my thought but outside real big set up battles French Revolution has a certain pulp aspect that could be reproduded on table top skirmish or role-playing games even with few miniatures and Tuilleries could be such an example cause it's difficult, outside a skirmish what if game, to find an historical objective.
this French old series is not bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgUOVde-qs
Considering that the King was no longer present, my initial thought was that the objective for the Swiss should be to save their colours through a figthing retreat through the gardens. I have yet to find a good map of the gardens but if the one below is a fair representation, then there are scope for a good skirmish battle among the alleys and trees...
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKTfSL6h/xtuileries-jardin-palace-palais-engraving-700-2x1-jpg-pagespeed-ic-r-CDGo-Xrrm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvxWxM9b/Sk-rmklipp.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I thought that the defining moment was when the King himself ordered the Swiss to cease firing as he wanted to spare the lives of the mob? The Swiss ordered arms and the Mob then promptly massacred them. Or is that not what happened?
From what i read..the King was'nt there to give any orders to the Swiss..even the Comander of the Gardes Suisses Regiment was'nt there...just before the event he sent an officer saying that he was ill and at bed ??? :( :( appointing so a second in command to lead the Guards in duty at the Tuilleries ..the old TV series that i posted depicted correctly the event as i compared by read ing other articles and books...some "arretez le feu" or probably same order in German were heard at the beginning of the clash...which spark according to various versions had been atributed to an unknow shot from the palace or , more probably, from a fédéré Marseillais of a volunteer battallion that had supported from the beginning the mob....those Swiss had been quite unlucky--- massacrated at the Bastille just to defend an empty prison or at least without any "political prisoners" as thought by the mob ..and then massacrated at the Tuilleries with the King already gone to the Assemblée Nationale very early in the morning..probably just after his last and unsucseful review at 5 am to try to rally the now unreliable "Garde Nationale de Paris"..
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Thanks for the replies - understand it much better now.
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There are some figures from Foundry for sale (not mine) on the forum this very night!
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Baron...the "stop firing" that you probably are referring to was given by the poor Marquis de Launay, the irresolute comandant of the Bastille,, after useless pour-parlez, not only in order to avoid casualties among civilians and cause the reliability of the soldiers that had to fire was uncertain but because, according to some sources, the comandant had already lost his head andself- control before the attack..the forces at his disposal was composed of invalides soldiers stiffed by some devoted 30 Swiss Gardes but equipped with already loaded cannons .The commander of the Bastille was hoping for reinforcments that had been promised .unfortunatly his act of clemency and good will was countered not only by the mean mob assaulting the bastille but also by a unit of the crack but treacherous Gardes Francaises arriving on the scene only to support the populace and fire at the Bastille defenders ..Bastille could be another wargame scenario with defined historical objectives such as ..the mob aiming at purchasing powder and muskets and free prisoners unaware that the prison was empty and the terrified French defenders and few Swiss to save their lifes..a typical assimetrical clash
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Can you recommend any 28mm suitable to represent the Gardes Francaises in 1792? I get a bit confused re the different French uniform models by the end of the 18th century... ???
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Can you recommend any 28mm suitable to represent the Gardes Francaises in 1792? I get a bit confused re the different French uniform models by the end of the 18th century... ???
Wouldn't the Perry French from their AWI range pass(they have pack packs ???)
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Can you recommend any 28mm suitable to represent the Gardes Francaises in 1792? I get a bit confused re the different French uniform models by the end of the 18th century... ???
Emperor Toads Emporium covers the whole gamut. I only have their Vendee rebels, but I am very pleased with their quality.
https://emperortoadsemporium.co.uk/store?productlist-search=&productlist-sort=created-desc&productlist-categories=reign-of-terror
(https://d2f0ora2gkri0g.cloudfront.net/33/88/3388425a-ad9f-429c-81f3-baa675a6ec9a.jpg)
(https://d2f0ora2gkri0g.cloudfront.net/ce/9f/ce9f1c9f-ba4c-4d2c-8997-2116a144ca21.jpg)
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I ordered the Swiss Guards and National Guard from Emperor Toad so I hope I have them covered, but for Garde Francaises I have failed to nail down the exact uniform and suitable miniatures. As I understand it France introduced new uniform regulations for infantry very frequently by the end of the century in 1776, 1779, 1786, 1791 and 1792 ??? ??? ??? Although the Garde was disbanded in 1789 I would assume they kept their old uniforms when they potentially joined the mob at the Tuiliries in 1792?
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The Gardes Francaises uniform was the most elaborated...lapels ecc...iIn the next days, time permitting, i'll scan some very accurate plates from a good book and ll post them...about suitable minis, at the moment i'm thiking about the Swiss Guards from Emperor Tod as their tunic is also richly elaborated and also about the Piedmontese, made again by Emperor Tod, Eureka and Mirliton whose old fashioned uniform could be useful for converting into Gardes...
for a broad idea, for the moment, see this contemporary picture about the Gardes Francaises familiarising with civilians and carried to the Assemblée Nationale.
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Great image you posted, quite different from this one supposed to show the Garde francaises in 1789
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGjz9qbx/BCD4-ACCC-5-AC5-484-C-BA27-C3659815-C232.png) (https://postimg.cc/DSS3GkcG)
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In my opinion quite similar to the your and the following other images ..just a slightly simplified version ..the images refers from 1785 up to 1789 ..see also, in my opinion and despite the colour, the acceptable similarity at least if you think about the result on a 28mm of the Gardes suisses images
Sorry I didn’t manage to post images in the right version ..problem with iPhone compability
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Great images! Many thanks! Now we only need to find the best proxy ;)
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When I’ll have to go in my cellar I’ll recuperate among my boxes a sample figures produced during the early Eighties by Hinchliffe ..(yes the very last range produced by Hinchliffe was “French Revolution” and was made probably for the Bicentenary in 1989).. this figure is labelled “ Grenadier du Roi” but as “Grenadiers du Roi” didn’t existed as unit ..or at least I’ve never heard about it ..that very mini is exactly a Garde Francaise of the Grenadier Company ..from what i remnber from an email with Hind Figures , the owner who had acquired Hinchliffe did nt list this FR range but he still has it and probably he will be happy to sell the minis if asked ..
For the moment see this comparison pict ..from left to right a Touller Figurines Vendéen/Chouan , a Mirliton Garde Nationale, a Foundry (sorry just the one I had at hand) and a HINCHLIFFE sanculotte from this practically unknown but nice range which had some nice types from the period like Suvurov s Russians, Bavarians , ragged French, sanculottes with choice of weapons and even an Austrian Grenzer border guard with cloak
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Double message sorry
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Again Gardes Suisses
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Another evidence of the fratricide struggle that took place during French Revolution even among famous units of the Royal Army that could be a basis for a kind of what if scenario or at least support more or less historically the choice of some units for your game is this old print depicting a quite violent clash or even a settled conventional battle that took place on 12 July of 1789 in Paris between the above mentioned Gardes Francaises and the Royal Allmand cavalry reg. composed of German speaking mercenaries.
The second print, in my opinion really accurate, depicts a Garde Francaise grenadier in the old style full dress fraternising with a civilian. The caption tell us that this Garde was among the first to enter the Bastille and the one that arrested the Comander of the prison
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And finally (for now 😏) if you really want to game the Tuilleries that s An article (including picts and short old school house rules) from a very old wargame magazine celebrating the Incredibile staging of this very game with no less than 5000 25mm castings and a purposly Made “Chateau des Tuilleries “ and his gardens by the great master Ian Weekly ..sorry in advance for the picts and sorry for my IPhone that i use as An illiterated sanculotte of 1792..
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And last for tonight: I found this article on a French language blog that describes in detail the fight at Tuilleries with names of units, of many soldiers and gives micro details on the fighting retreat out of the gardens, toward the Assemblée Nationale as a last refuge..stopping in groups of few soldiers to fire at marauding mob among the garden and even succeeding in causing quite a few casualties among their pursuers by discharging, on the way, grape shots from the pieces previously abandoned by the Garde Nationale..a fighting desperate retreat by few survivals could also be an idea for a good scenario ..something like the last survivors retreating from Maiwand or Isandlwana (my favourite period being also Colonial 😄)
If Your French is ok or if you enjoy using google translator have a look at this article:
http://leblogdumesnil.unblog.fr/2013/08/10/2013-61-«-ainsi-finit-le-regiment-des-gardes-suisses-du-roi-de-france-»/
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If your looking for figs. The perry's do have some french in there American Revolutionary war line.
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Italwars, an awesome amount of great info, many thanks!
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If your looking for figs. The perry's do have some french in there American Revolutionary war line.
Thanks, I think I have sorted out the Swiss and the National Guard with Emperor Toads miniatures. The Perry might be useful for the Garde Francais
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Duplicate
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here you can find some other beautiful plates and useful infos on Garde Francaises and G. Suisses...every possible uniform including the Cannoniers (infantry that manned guns attached to the regiment) of both Gardes Francaises and Suisses..probably those gunners that were present at Bastille and maybe also at Tuilleries ..the last plates are also useful cause they could help to depict the Gentilhommes that also tried to defend the Tuilleries..in my opinion the Front Rank AWI French Infantry and above all the Grenadiers could do for those uniforms
https://lasabretache.fr/fonds-boisselier-5/
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Italwars,
many thanks for the link! Would the National Guard cannoniers also have any difference in uniform compared to the fusiliers?
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I think only minors ones..but you can see the plate of a canonier
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I think only minors ones..but you can see the plate of a canonier
Thanks, then I can go with the same style ;)
I just finished reading this book:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVkgPZHy/82059361-29-A3-45-D6-8380-A06-BBE9-B4-C0-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVt0nH39)
It deals mainly with the events on August 10, 1792. Based on the info there my conclusion is that the following forces were present once the fighting started:
Attackers under Alexandre
450 National Guard de Marseille (Federes Marseillais) + 4 guns
200 National Guard de Brest (Federes Brestois)
200 National GUard de Paris Saint-Marcel
The Mob (several thousands)
Gendarmes (unknown number)
Santerre´s 3 battalions (Westerman commander)
500? National Guard de Paris Les Enfants Trouves
500? National Guard de Paris Des Minimes
500? National Guard de Paris Montreuil(not sure which district this is)
The Mob (several thousands)
Defenders
600 Swiss Guard Fusiliers and Grenadiers
200 Grenadiers National Guard de Paris Filles-Saint-Thomas
200 Gentlemen
100 Palace officials and servants
The National Guard de Brest seems to have a different coloured uniform than the regular blue-white:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2b4tWRF/Brest.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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The project is starting to take shape. First the unfortunate defenders:
Louis XVI and his charming Austrian wife Marie Antoinette
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCcfDb74/BEBF5-C48-E611-408-C-8868-B9-FB25-A3-E747.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XpwQ7TwR)
Their trusted (unarmed) servants:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5sZ5ZqG/46-E61708-1-D77-4-A9-A-AD22-D808234-F6-BB2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJ59Z8dr)
Their trusted (armed) servants:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJZ59mb4/08452824-0-B3-B-4-CE1-823-C-C3-F3-C05-CDB7-A.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJK52dxc)
Armed staff from the Tuileries
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd3fgvpV/2347-B746-B8-C9-4914-B55-C-0381-A97-EDB54.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ny72HW6Z)
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That's a great start,looking forward to seeing more over the coming weeks/months :-*
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Thanks Romark, my latest end date is August 10, 2022, for the 230 year anniversary ;) but I will post more in the near future
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Thanks Romark, my latest end date is August 10, 2022, for the 230 year anniversary ;) but I will post more in the near future
👍
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A few of the loyal gentlemen, who gathered at the Tuileries to protect the king:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFCMjFV0/ED8480-B6-083-E-4-C6-C-8-EA1-E8-ACC638-D74-B.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sB8dW3WF)
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8)
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…and some Swiss Guard grenadiers…
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8m94Pzz/C4-CC03-B2-8-A68-45-FF-971-F-EF9-ED2290-CEF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzZVjzDR)
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Nice :)
Are they Perry's minis?
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Nice :)
Are they Perry's minis?
Well spotted! Perry AWI + Trent sappers
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Well spotted! Perry AWI + Trent sappers
😉👍
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The loyal National Guard grenadiers of Filles Saint-Thomas charging the mob:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tggrfLYM/2-D7-E6-BB7-80-A9-4656-B388-EFD43-E36-C1-B5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Js9cHY3N)
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Nice :)
Trent and Eureka minis this time?
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Nice :)
Trent and Eureka minis this time?
Absolutely correct! :)